A Personal Example Of Why Submission Does Not Work

[debrand]

Both my husband and I woke up very early this morning. We ended up having a long discussion about something that he did a long time ago. He surprised me because for years when I would ask why he acted in a certain negative way(that I am about to explain) he would tell me that he had been stupid but he didn't understand the reasons behind his actions. I am going to describe this first from my point of view and than add in what he recently told me. This is a good reason that submission is harmful to both the man and the woman

When he was stationed in Nebraska, my husband worked odd hours. He would work two days early in the morning, two days during the actual day and two days during the hours that spanned the late evening and early morning. When he was home, he was either sleeping or grumpy. Because he was close to retirement, we bought land in Iowa about 45 minutes away.

At the time, I was trying very hard to be submissive. Discussions that might have cleared the air between us did not happen. I felt like a single mom. It would have been easier sometimes if the military had sent him overseas because he was not pleasant to be around.

One day, we went to a church member's house for a quick lunch. Before we left, I asked my husband to promise me that he would leave when I said it was time. My husband talks a lot and I thought he would spend a lot of time talking to the husband. When we got there, we discovered that the husband was going to have to go to work after lunch,. Good, I thought, we'll leave at a normal time.

Nope. When the husband left, I got the kids ready to go and said goodbye. My husband refused to rise from the table. HE didn't say that he refused to go, he simply didn't get up. The wife finally said in an Eeyore voice, "Why don't you let the kids play a bit more. " GRRR..I sat back down. Dinner came. She told us that she didn't have enough food to feed us. My husband would not leave. I got the kids and told him we were ready to leave. He said okay and did not get up. In the same depressed voice, the woman told us that she could stretch the food. We ate at her house. I wanted to leave. My husband agreed. He would NOT get up. This confused my plans for submission. I didn't know how to be submissive in these circumstances. He stayed until the woman put on her night clothes and offered to make us a pallet on the floor to sleep. Finally he left

Our marriage almost ended at this point. I told him I was not pretending torespect him anymore. If he wanted respect, he needed to respect me first. If I hadn't been a Christian, I would have left him. I was done with being submissive though because I saw that it wasn't working. Being our home's leader was ruining my husband as a human being. I lost the man that I fell in love with

For about six years, I've wondered why he refused to leave. This morning, he surprised me by giving me a reason.

(Next post)

[debrand]

My husband grew up in an abusive home. After we married, he tried several times to get his father to do things with him but his dad always refused. His dad was distant and cold to him. I think my husband always wanted a father figure in his life.

When we moved to Iowa, he became a Christian. The pastor was an older man who paid my husband a lot of attention. He treated my husband like another son. I mistakenly thought the relationship was good for my husband.There were a lot of events for men in the church, not so many for women(unless you liked crafts) I encouraged my husband to attend these events.

Unknown to me, I was a problem to the pastor. I asked questions, not to be disrespectful but to learn. If I found bible verses that contradicted the pastors views, I brought them to him and asked him to explain how they meshed with his interpretation of the bible. I was honest about not seeing alcohol drinking as sinful. My kids played fantasy video games and listened to rock music. And I wore makeup.I thought these were tiny issues. Apparently, not. For three years, my husband had men tell him repeatedly that he should be my head. He should make me obey. When he protested that he couldn't' make me do anything because I was an adult, the men just kept informing him that a true leader would be able to make their wives obedient.

Every Wednesday service, I refused to attend. I went Sunday morning and evening. During most of the church events, I volunteered to help. But I wanted to be alone on one night a week. When my husband was home, I sent the kids to church with him on those evenings. I became very possessive of my little time alone. The pastor was not happy when my husband told him that he couldn't make me attend church every time the doors opened. It was a big enough issue that several of the men approached my husband about it. What is strange is that until very close to the time that I stopped attending the church, no one talked with me. My husband said that they kept after him until he began to feel that they might be right. I was not being respectful of him and was causing him embarrasment.

Even thought I wore long dresses, dressed in a frumpy manner, read my bible every night, went to church often, obeyed my husband etc. it wasn't enough. The men in the church set about trying to destroy my husband's relationship with me. To my face, they were sweet and kind.

That day, at the other couple's house, my husband decided to take control in a passive aggressive manner. He wanted to show who was boss but he didn't want to make me mad. He admitted to me that he didn't like himself at that moment. Because he was embarrassed by his own actions, my husband realized that he was wrong. It was a wake up call for us both.

We both hid our true feelings. Until we attended that chruch, we used to communicate well. We might have occasionally argued but we talked. The pressure to pretend that we had a perfect marriage made us stop talking to one another. I had no idea that the men in the church were having such intense discussions with him about getting me under control.

My husband said that this issue still bothers him. He has never understood why he let the opinion of other people convince him to act in a way that he felt was wrong. Even more odd is that he never believed or liked the concept of wifely submission, but overtime, he was influenced by others. He's trying to figure out what he believes so I think that he is going through a lot of soul searching. But it was nice, for me, to understand what was going on with him during that time period.

Anyway, that is my example of how submission is harmful. If any of you have examples, -even if they aren't from your own marriage- maybe you can write about them. I think that it is important for fundamentalists to read less glowing accounts of loosing yourself to your spouse

edited for clarity

[Guest Anonymous]

Wow, this was an amazing story! The misogyny and pettiness of the men in that church is astounding.

One example of why submissiveness doesn't work: In my own family, my mother was submissive. She didn't actually believe in submission, but she just didn't know any other way to act. My father was a bully and she let him push her around. Anyway, he was a big believer in ritualistic and humiliating corporal punishment. In contrast, my mother, who spent much more time with me than my father, understood me extremely well and knew how to teach me to behave well by listening to me, treating me with respect, and modeling good behavior. I was always an angel with my mother, and more bratty with my father because I resented his violent and authoritarian style so much. Anyway, my mother told me recently that she knew in her heart that the beatings I received from my father were wrong and harmful, but she was stuck in a mindset that he knew better than she did and a belief that there was nothing she could do about it. While I feel I owe a lot to my mother for all the care and time and attention she spent on me, I still wish she had been able to stick up for me more. Ironically, my father grew up in similar circumstances -- receiving violent beatings from his own father, and comfort from a mother who knew it was wrong but felt she couldn't put her foot down. (I hope to "break the cycle" if I have a child! My husband doesn't believe in CP.)

One example similar to your own, Debrand: I was never submissive and I have always been able to speak up with my husband, but OMG, I had a similar experience once when my husband simply would not leave a social event. This happened more than 15 years ago when were engaged but not yet married, and I am absolutely enraged even today whenever I think about it. Friends of my husband's were getting married and the groom's parents invited us to their home the night before the wedding for a "rehearsal dinner;" we were included even though we weren't in the wedding party. I didn't know anyone there, but I felt obligated to mingle and chat and introduce myself, which I did quite happily during dinner and a couple after dinner drinks. But then the night wore on. My husband sat by the stereo and "played DJ" flipping records. People started to leave, including the bride and groom, and soon it was 11 p.m., with just the groom's parents and his brothers, and we had been at the event for more than 5 hours. They had a morning wedding the next day. For about 2 hours, from about 10 p.m. until 1 a.m., I kept trying to get my husband (then fiance) to leave. I would say things like, "It's getting late. Are you ready to go now? We are the only guests left. Why don't we go?" And my husband kept saying, "No, I'm having a good time." It was awful because he wasn't mingling and so I felt I had to chat with the family I didn't know and on whom we were imposing so dreadfully. So I would talk with them for a while, feeling totally embarrassed, and then go plead with him. I would go and hiss at him: "This is so awful. Why are you doing this to me? I am completely humiliated and furious at you right now." He would just shrug and say, "Oh well, I am having a good time." This happened repeatedly over the course of 2 hours o more. I will never forget my feeling of helplessness that night. I didn't want to cause a scene. I couldn't leave myself because I didn't have a car. All I could do was return to our poor hosts with a smile on my face and pretend that everything was okay.

Finally, at about 1 a.m., during one of the whispered colloquys with my husband, I finally said, "I hate you so fucking much right now. You are being such an asshole." And he said, "What's your problem? Are you saying want to leave?" And I said in my angriest whisper, "Yes, I fucking want to leave, you asshole!" And he said, "Why didn't you say so? OK, let's go." During the knock-down, drag-out fight afterwards, he claimed that I was unclear in my requests to leave because I hadn't said the magic words, "I want to leave." Total bullshit, of course.

At the time, I seriously considered breaking off our engagement. I had an abusive father and a previous relationship with a controlling boyfriend. I thought this event was a major red flag that I would be in for more of the same if I married my husband. Fortunately, it turned out to be an isolated incident. We worked out a rule that if either of us wants to leave an event, that decision trumps the other person's desire to stay (or, in the alternative, we can figure out a way for one person to leave and the other to stay longer.) To this day, I have no idea what the hell my husband was thinking that night. I think it was a combination of him drinking quite a bit that night, being generally more socially clueless than I am, and also being inexperienced at the time in compromising in a relationship. I think that if I had been submissive, I probably would have wound up suffering through more incidents like this, and probably a lot of controlling behavior by my husband. Gotta nip that shit in the bud.

.

[Koala]

Thank you for posting this. I was actually thinking about this very topic this morning. I think it is so important to get stories like this out there. Submission is not harmless...

[debrand]

Doomed Harlot, I think that women who remain submissive must undergo a lot of humiliation over long periods of time. It must wear down their confidence level to the point that they don't expect to be respected.

In my situation, I've often wondered why the other woman wasn't more firm in telling us to leave but now I think that she was trying to stay sweet. So, there were two women following a forumula that was failing us both.

[masagoroll]

Debrand, your story just shows how fundamentalism perverts religion! Christianity is supposed to be pro-marriage, so good for your family, etc., and that church full of men was undermining and wrecking your marriage! That is so messed up.

[deelaem]

That's quite a story, debra. I admire your strength in getting yourself and your family out of that kind of poisonous environment. And I'm glad that your husband is able to see how wrong that day-long humiliation was.

I had to submit to my first husband too, but not for religious reasons. He was a massively insecure person with borderline personality disorder. If he didn't get his way and have the majority of attention put on him, there was hell to pay. I really regret that I stayed with him as long as I did, thereby exposing my sons to his craziness. The emotional and mental abuse he put me through left me with no self-esteem. Now I know he did that was because he was so terminally empty inside. I feel that men who insist on submissive wives are pretty much the same. They don't have any good feelings about themselves so they have to prop themselves up on dominating someone else. So that once the wife is completely broken down, the man can feel like he's worth something. Where is the concept of a loving God in such behavior?

[deelaem]

Debrand, your story just shows how fundamentalism perverts religion! Christianity is supposed to be pro-marriage, so good for your family, etc., and that church full of men was undermining and wrecking your marriage! That is so messed up.

Christianity is pro-marriage as long as it's between Christians of the opposite sex. :roll:

[kpmom]

Thanks for the example.

I've never been in a submissive relationship, but I would imagine your example shows exactly what is wrong with these relationships.

Either one or both parties always have to be playing games to actually get what they want/need. Neither party really has to ever grow up. One is treated like a spoiled two year old in that he always gets what he wants. The other is also treated like a two year old in that she never gets to make a final decision for herself.

[formerlyfundie]

I had become a pro at the whole submissive wife thing, but realized how harmful it was after an argument my husband and I had one day. He had just come back from his second tour in Afghanistan and was already dealing with a LOT. Well he would ask me things, and I would usually reply with something along the lines of "whatever you want" which infuriated him. He came back the particular day with "If I wanted to do what I wanted, I would have never asked you in the first place! Where are you, do you have a brain anymore?!". I remember being heartbroken at the time and praying for God to soften his heart, all of that, but he was right. And not to mention when he would hurt my feelings it became a HUGE deal, no matter how small the issue, because I would always just feel embarrassed and like I had messed up and not ~honored him enough. My self esteem took a HUGE blow.

[Black Aliss]

My husband is also incapable of interpreting most social clues and it was quite a few years into our marriage before I realized that I needed to say, "Honey, we need to go." when it was time to leave a party. Otherwise he would not get out of his chair, even when the host and hostess had gone into the kitchen to wash dishes.

[Austin]

I have a job where I must make a lot of decisions everyday. Decisions that are important and have consequences if I make the wrong one (just like most other people). I also manage a home and a family, so all together, that can be a lot of decisons every single day. My husband deals with the same volume of decisons, albeit different ones. We both sometimes feel "decisioned-out", meaning "please don't throw any more decisions my way today". If I have had a crazy day (or he has), I/we don't need anything else thrown at me/us, like "quinoa or baked sweet potato?". I don't give a damn at that point.

I think it would be terrible if one person in the marriage/partnership was tasked with making every single decision. One of the reasons to form a lifelong partnership with someone is it makes it easier to carry the load if two people are sharing it.

[Joykins]

My husband and I are both stubborn argumentative domineering types so you can get an idea of how much fun our household can be at times. So when we first married we argued about every. little. thing. And at some point he took me aside and said he felt hurt that I did not "submit" to him, ever. We weren't extreme fundy but his background was definitely fundy-lite. Anyway, I ran a little experiment. I agreed with whatever he would explicitly state, but I would do it like this if there was something I knew we would disagree about and it was important to me (a lot of stuff isn't really important to me, like so I just tell him I don't care, you decide):

* I will do what you decide. I want to do X. This is why.

And...he agreed with every damn thing I asked. He just wanted me to respect that he had a say, he didn't actually want to exercise it unreasonably. I'm not saying it was ideal--I don't think it was--but it moved me away from thinking I had to argue with him about everything. We did move to an area where we now just habitually consult with each other rationally about most things and come to an agreement, but I do think I had to let go the idea that I had to run everything.

For what it's worth, I don't think what we did in practice was wife-submits-to-husband, I think it was more along the line of mutual submission because we both considered the other's wishes very important. Anyway I think this is something each couple needs to learn their own unique patterns about in terms of productive and happy decision making.

[browngrl]

I have a job where I must make a lot of decisions everyday. Decisions that are important and have consequences if I make the wrong one (just like most other people). I also manage a home and a family, so all together, that can be a lot of decisons every single day. My husband deals with the same volume of decisons, albeit different ones. We both sometimes feel "decisioned-out", meaning "please don't throw any more decisions my way today". If I have had a crazy day (or he has), I/we don't need anything else thrown at me/us, like "quinoa or baked sweet potato?". I don't give a damn at that point.

I think it would be terrible if one person in the marriage/partnership was tasked with making every single decision. One of the reasons to form a lifelong partnership with someone is it makes it easier to carry the load if two people are sharing it.

This exactly describes my husband and I.

My husband has told me that one thing that was an important problem in his first marriage was the fact that he had to be the "headship" all the time - regardless of how tired or sick or busy he was. His ex wife would passively follow his lead but if she didn't agree with him she would be so passive aggressive that it was impossible. He has told me many times that one of the things he loves best about me is the fact that we both share the burden of decision making. It is one of the things I love best about him too.

[MrsYoungie]

I remember hearing someone (comedian? writer?) saying that in their marriage he was in charge of all the big decisions and his wife was in charge of all the small decisions. After 20 years of marriage - no big decisions had come up.

A similar one from (Dave Barry maybe?) was that he was in charge of big decisions like thier opinion on the Middle East. His wife was in charge of smaller decisions - like where to live and how many children they were goiing to have.

[emmiedahl]

After a long time being married, dh and I usually decide first whose decision it really is. If it affects the children, then I am probably going to be the one executing it, so I should have final say-so. When it comes to cars, he has final say because I understand nothing about vehicles and honestly prefer the pretty one. From there, the less-affected party can state their case, but the other one has final say.

I can't imagine having to let dh make decisions about, say, how I keep the house, or whether the small ones go to preschool and where. It does not affect him and it DOES affect me.

[Hane]

God, debrand--I thought you were going to tell us your husband just sat there at the table because he'd had a stroke! That was the way my dad was acting when he became ill* and we had to call an ambulance.

*His stroke-like symptoms turned out not to be signs of a stroke, but of a treatable condition.

[Kaylee]

I remember hearing someone (comedian? writer?) saying that in their marriage he was in charge of all the big decisions and his wife was in charge of all the small decisions. After 20 years of marriage - no big decisions had come up.

lol, should I admit that this is pretty much what "submission" looks like in me marriage?

If there was some decision major enough that we couldn't compromise on it or wait until we reached an agreement, or so drastic that it needed to be decided right then, it would totally be his decision. So far, that hasn't happened yet. The few times we've come even close to it, his decision has been "do what you want" or "whatever you think is better". He tells me he makes decisions all day at work, and I'm grown up enough to be able to handle most things that affect our home and family since he sees both as my primary domain.

I tried the whole total submission thing that some of the websites and authors suggest and neither one of us was happy with it. Him more-so than me, because I kind of liked not pressure and no blame if I made a "wrong" decision. We also found out quickly that trying to decide without discussing things honestly and making sure we were both on the same page could lead to colossal screw-ups (he almost bought a $40,000 sunroom because he thought I really wanted it, when I was just politely listening to the salesperson and thinking how stupid you'd have to be to finance something like that on a $70,000 doublewide).

[margiebargie]

Wow, debrand, that was quite a story. There have been many times, during my fundie-watching, that I actually feel a twinge of sympathy for the guys. I definitely feel sorry for your husband. What a horrible, awkward situation to be in. It blows my mind that people would meddle in your marriage to that extent. What a bunch of manipulative mind-fuckers.

He should have been able to use you as his sanity check, but couldn't because you were some lesser being he was supposed to control. How sad.

[Evie Teale]

debrand,

I would love to read more threads like this. I feel like there are a lot of fundywife lurkers who NEED to read this.

Reading your story, I realized my husband would have been one of the men telling your husband to put you in your rightful place. :snooty: How disgusted am I at that?

One is treated like a spoiled two year old in that he always gets what he wants. The other is also treated like a two year old in that she never gets to make a final decision for herself.

This. A thousand times, this.

Edited for typing errors.

[Soulhuntress]

I had become a pro at the whole submissive wife thing, but realized how harmful it was after an argument my husband and I had one day. He had just come back from his second tour in Afghanistan and was already dealing with a LOT. Well he would ask me things, and I would usually reply with something along the lines of "whatever you want" which infuriated him. He came back the particular day with "If I wanted to do what I wanted, I would have never asked you in the first place! Where are you, do you have a brain anymore?!". I remember being heartbroken at the time and praying for God to soften his heart, all of that, but he was right. And not to mention when he would hurt my feelings it became a HUGE deal, no matter how small the issue, because I would always just feel embarrassed and like I had messed up and not ~honored him enough. My self esteem took a HUGE blow.

DH actually HATES when I won't make a decision and he will make me use my brain, no matter how much I "want" to be the submissive wife. It did not work so well and we work as a team.

[Kitty]

All of my experiences with conservative Christianity have taught me that conservative Christianity is the biggest threat to marriage.

If a woman is naturally more passive, that's one thing, but to expect it of all women... ugh. Just ugh. My own mother isn't submissive. At all. And quite frankly, by conservative/fundy standards, my dad would fail at partriarchy. And he did grow up in the 50s and 60s. Years ago, my sister and I were frequently invited to the youth group at a Baptist church in the next town. My parents had issues that they couldn't resolve, they just keep arguing and arguing and getting nowhere. So they decided to ask the pastor for help, and we would all attend church on Sunday. It was a clusterfuck of fail- my parents just argued MORE, and when they weren't arguing they were slamming other church members for being fake and hypocritical. (I think I've mentioned before that they're VERY ill-suited to conservative Christianity...) My mother, while not being super-masculine, would much rather hang with the guys than with all the chicks jabbering on about scrapbooking and Pampered Chef and babies. The pastor actually told her to hang around women more. He and some other church higher-ups told him he should stay home if a contractor came to our house to fix something, because obviously my mother couldn't be trusted.

The whole thing taught me that A) Conservative Christianity is the biggest threat to marriage, and B) it's okay if I don't want to be a submissive wife/girlfriend if I don't want to. I'm too much like my mother.

[Lainey]

Why? I mean, for you, what are the underlying beliefs that lead to this?

[CanticleoftheTurning]

I had to submit to my first husband too, but not for religious reasons. He was a massively insecure person with borderline personality disorder. If he didn't get his way and have the majority of attention put on him, there was hell to pay. I really regret that I stayed with him as long as I did, thereby exposing my sons to his craziness. The emotional and mental abuse he put me through left me with no self-esteem. Now I know he did that was because he was so terminally empty inside. I feel that men who insist on submissive wives are pretty much the same. They don't have any good feelings about themselves so they have to prop themselves up on dominating someone else. So that once the wife is completely broken down, the man can feel like he's worth something. Where is the concept of a loving God in such behavior?

My dad has borderline personality disorder, too, and my mom is very submissive to him. She used to stand up to him in small ways and be a little bit more of a mother, but then she "gave up" when dad gave her the book, "How to Change Your Husband."

I am so so glad that you were able to leave him for the sake of your kids, and I think that you're quite accurate when you say that men who don't feel good about themselves like to bully/dominate someone else to feel self-worth. I think that had a lot to do with my dad's verbal and emotional abuse.

I wish my mom had the strength to leave my dad, too. But she really has no way of supporting herself or the little ones.