Another Duggar Courtship: Joseph and Kendra

[amendgitan]

On 3/9/2017 at 6:25 PM, singsingsing said:

It's actually always been normal for most women to survive childbirth, but yeah, not nearly as overwhelmingly as it is today.

Not really. Anthrolpogically speaking, as hominids developed more sophisticated tools and harnessed fire, our brains became bigger but our birth canals didn't. Death in childbirth is rare only in developed nations in the contemporary world. 

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20161221-the-real-reasons-why-childbirth-is-so-painful-and-dangerous

[Percy]

I am wondering if the house we saw them transporting on to Duggar land, is actually for Joe and his bride?

[amendgitan]

On 3/9/2017 at 8:17 PM, CorbinsMommy said:

I feel in life you can never have success without failure, so you can really know the difference.  With them always marrying the first person they court they have no way of knowing if their spouse is really a good match.  Without a few failed relationships and dating a few bad eggs you never know the good from the bad or that there is better out there.

But what about the "pieces of your heart"? 

[singsingsing]

6 minutes ago, amendgitan said:

Not really. Anthrolpogically speaking, as hominids developed more sophisticated tools and harnessed fire, our brains became bigger but our birth canals didn't. Death in childbirth is rare only in developed nations in the contemporary world. 

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20161221-the-real-reasons-why-childbirth-is-so-painful-and-dangerous

I think you misunderstood me. Death in childbirth was certainly not rare throughout most of history, but I'm not aware of any historical period during which the majority of women died in childbirth. 

[amendgitan]

On 3/10/2017 at 10:58 AM, onekidanddone said:

I wonder how they will explain away the fact that Joshly is missing from the groomsmen.  Maybe they TLC will have a bouncing blue pixelated  blob to cover him up.

They haven't explained his absence so far on counting on much, have they? I mean I know anna has made some statements here and there but they haven't tried to explain why he's not in bridal parties or whatever, right? The big perverted child molester in the room. 

On 3/10/2017 at 1:56 PM, JillyO said:

Interesting. My mom got married for the first time at 19. She says for the last few weeks before the wedding, she already knew she shouldn't be getting married to the guy. But they had already sent out invitations and planned and paid for the whole wedding, so she thought she had to just go through with it. She was divorced a year and a half later, at which point she was 7 months pregnant with another guy's (my father's) baby. She married my dad while 34 weeks pregnant mith my brother.

ETA: My mom is one really tough cookie who doesn't GAF. I can't even imagine her going through with a wedding she no longer wants because of what other people might think. Which just goes to show that she was way too young to be getting married.

Yes and her life experiences, including mistakes she made that she was allowed to get out of, likely made her the tough cookie she became. 

But these kids don't get to learn from their mistakes. They're stuck with them. 

[BabyBottlePop]

6 minutes ago, amendgitan said:

They haven't explained his absence so far on counting on much, have they? I mean I know anna has made some statements here and there but they haven't tried to explain why he's not in bridal parties or whatever, right? The big perverted child molester in the room. 

What could they really say though other than the truth? I mean they could definitely twist the reason but I can't think of an actual different reason. Maybe Anna saying something like "Josh has been ashamed to be in the public eye."

[amendgitan]

28 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

I think you misunderstood me. Death in childbirth was certainly not rare throughout most of history, but I'm not aware of any historical period during which the majority of women died in childbirth. 

Oh you're right! I did misunderstand. True. 

[Iamtheway]

On 2017-03-10 at 5:17 AM, CorbinsMommy said:

I feel in life you can never have success without failure, so you can really know the difference.  With them always marrying the first person they court they have no way of knowing if their spouse is really a good match.  Without a few failed relationships and dating a few bad eggs you never know the good from the bad or that there is better out there.

I only have one failed relationship and it wasn't with a bad egg at all, and I've never dated, but I'm a 100% sure Mr Way is a good match and that there is no one better out there. 

(Actually there was a boy I held hands with before that first boyfriend so by Duggar standard I guess that counts as a broken engagement.)

But even though my love life is very sparsely populated I had plenty of opportunity to observe my friends relationships, good and bad, and have male friends and just be out in the world getting to know myself and my needs. I feel so sorry for the Duggars that don't have that opportunity. 

The heartpieces I lost to my first boyfriend were well spent. As were the heartpieces Mr Way lost in his previous relationships. Because they taught us things that make our relationship stronger and better now.

 

On 2017-03-11 at 5:21 PM, singsingsing said:

There is actually another slightly less devious possibility: they simply haven't taken their Christmas decorations down yet.

Considering I still have some that I havn't taken down (because I'm lazy) that's what I thought.

[amendgitan]

On 3/11/2017 at 3:41 AM, GoatZombie said:

 

My mom was 32 when I was born, but my Dad was 42. Also in the 80s and yeah at that time it was a bit weird. Most of their friends had kids 5-10 years older than me. Most of my peers in school had parents much younger and some had grandparents who were my Dad's age. I have friends now who are 10 years older with younger parents, its funny. I am very happy they were older when I was born. They were settled, had a house that was nearly paid off, cars without a loan, savings and investments. They were mature had already had a lot of living and experience under their belt. I had a very privileged upbringing with a lot of opportunities. If they had me 12 years earlier when they first got married my life would have been a lot harder. I will say it sucks to be as young as I am and have to deal with elderly parents though. They can still take care of themselves but are starting to have a lot of issues and it scares to me think in a few years I may have to be a caregiver. On the other hand, my aunt had my cousin very young and she was not financially or mentally stable enough to have a child. My cousin had it rough, and she ended up basically being the parent to her mother. Its funny though because she basically followed in her mothers footsteps and also had a baby young and with no money. My other cousin who also has older parents, and I are in our 30s with no children and no plans for them. Its funny how we all took after our parents. I have no desire to breed, but if I did I would want to make sure my kid had a similar upbringing to mine. Not to say that younger parents can't be good parents... and older parents can be bad parents. Age is not so much the issue but maturity is...and those 2 things are linked more often than not.

 

me too!  I freaked out when 1994s were having babies

 

I wish they'd just be natural and show him, Not that I want to see him or anything but we all know he's there.  

I think there would be too much outcry over TLC knowingly featuring a child molester on their show. 

[singsingsing]

43 minutes ago, amendgitan said:

Oh you're right! I did misunderstand. True. 

No worries, and thanks for the article btw! I love social history.

[Eatingintheprayercloset]

I don't think Josh will be one of the groomsmen. Joseph never seemed that close to him....I think he even admitted that during the 3-part Counting On special. John will most likely be the Best Man, with Josiah and the twins also being groomsmen. A few of his sisters will be bridesmaid. I would put money On Joy and Jinger. 

[shrewlu]

On 3/9/2017 at 4:37 AM, eveandadam said:

becoming a grandmother at 38 is already extremely young, but looking 28 and becoming a grandmother...mind blown...

My mom was 39 when she became a grandmother. Granted, she had me when she was 17 and I was 22 when my kid was born. She wasn't fundie, just a teenager who got pregnant.  

Kendra looks really young. It's hard to imagine her (or Joy) having kids. 

[amendgitan]

On 3/11/2017 at 7:42 AM, Jaedzia said:

Regardless that I have been looking at this website for years, since the other place, you all don't know much about me. I didn't even join until December 2014 and as my post count shows I barely post. I was reared fundie lite. My father would have gladly taken us Duggar fundie but that my mother wouldn't allow it, he didn't want to support 19 kids, and he wanted my mom to work. I was reared to hate gays, liberals were all of the devil, women were to wear dresses and skirts(my mom did and does, but my sister and I rebelled and won in that area), went to bible based Christian schools, women didn't need to go to college, we were spanked/beaten, the lock was removed from my bedroom door, etc......

I can tell you that it can take YEARS to break free. It took as others have said on here "baby steps" for me to walk completely away.  I am now 46 years old. I still love my parents and have chosen to forgive them, but I made an effort not to repeat their mistakes with my kids. My daughter is, in fact, a bisexual and I don't care. I love her so much and I will love whoever she marries, boy or girl. Both my kids, boy and girl, are in college(a real college) and doing well. My daughter wears whatever the heck she wants. The locks are on their bedroom doors. 

I didn't reach this place over night. I still went to a fundie church for a while after marriage. I still hated gays until my late 20s. I spanked my kids for about four years and then one day realized I didn't want to do this. I wanted to correct in a better way. My political beliefs are in the middle, left, and right. lol. Depending on the topic, depends were I land on the political spectrum. 

I guess my point is, we need to give the married kids time before we declare them completely like their parents. The one exception being Josh. Anyways, that's just my opinion and this is now my longest post. lol Sorry. 

Your story actually reiterates how next to impossible it will be for any of these kids to break free. 

You were raised fundie lite and it took you years to break free. These people aren't being raised fundie lite. They're being raised in one of the most fundamentalist, strictest most rigid Christian sects that exist today. 

They didn't have a mother who refused to go fundamentalist. A role model mother who actually worked an outside job. That would be heretical to them. Instead, they have a mother who is likely more zealous than their father. A mother so zealous she likely fantasizes about dying a martyr in child birth with her 21st child, who she was told has nothing more than a brain stem and will risk her life if she continues to carry to term. 

They didn't get to go to school like you. A school where they would surely have been introduced to concepts and children and information that veers from their narrow world and way of thinking, even if it's a private Christian school.

They didn't rebel and wear pants as teens. That would be inconceivable to them. 

No. their world is vastly different from the one you came from I think. Not only have they utterly lacked the experiences with anything outside their world that you had, they also live within a world that constantly reinforces the glory of their lifestyle. 

And importantly, unlike many fundies who grow up in abject poverty, they've lived relatively comfortable lives with high status in their culture due to their show and money. 

No. I feel that the possibility of one of them breaking free is a dim one. Very dim. 

[HarryPotterFan]

2 hours ago, amendgitan said:

Not really. Anthrolpogically speaking, as hominids developed more sophisticated tools and harnessed fire, our brains became bigger but our birth canals didn't. Death in childbirth is rare only in developed nations in the contemporary world. 

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20161221-the-real-reasons-why-childbirth-is-so-painful-and-dangerous

Fucking tiny ass birth canals.

[Million Children For Jesus]

13 minutes ago, amendgitan said:

I think there would be too much outcry over TLC knowingly featuring a child molester on their show. 

@GoatZombie

Yep. There definitely would be backlash if they featured Josh. The Duggars, which is the 19KaC brand and identified as Jim Bob and Michelle, who have J-kids in wholesome wear, had three audiences and all three don't want to see Josh. 

Those audiences are carrying over to the Counting On brand, but a good marketing team could create a new audience. (They haven't yet.) CO, if rebranded separate from 19KaC, was supposed to be a show about adult siblings carving out separate and new lives, so Jim Boob and Mechelle, in theory, don't need to be seen at all, or at least, very little, i.e. a walk down the aisle. Making it about "Duggar KIDS" is just bad marketing, since the Duggar brand is enmeshed with the Josh scandal. Josh is a bad "Duggar kid." So showing him would be extra bad marketing. They need CO to be a clean break, fresh start and new image. No Josh. No Jim Bob. They screw that up every time they show Jim Bob.

Side Note: Am I only one who remembers Frasier was a spin off? We can learn how to do a spin off by using Frasier as an example. Counting On is no Frasier. 

Our three Duggar audiences include the train chasers, the mainstream, and the leg humpers, with a leghumper subgroup, the fundies. 

First, the train chasers were waiting for a train wreck. They hate the lifestyle and wait for hypocrisy to be exposed. They already got the Josh train wreck. They're waiting for Derick to get the FBI or IRS raid for his fake nonprofit. Or Ben and Jessa to move into TTH with 6 kids and no jobs. There are new train wrecks to chase. Josh is old hat. So they don't want to see him.

Second, the mainstream audience, (insert advertising dollars here), which for this genre of reality tv will be the gawk and snark watchers. This audience is either indifferent, irritated, or depressed by Josh at this point. None of which is good for entertainment value. He isn't likable, so no cheering for the underdog, like we do with the other J-kids, and he isn't relatable, because seriously, I don't know anyone who molested their sister and screwed a porn star while his devoted wife sat at home pregnant with three children. Not a single one. Not even Charlie Sheen. He may have screwed porn stars, but he was never a hypocrite about it. People like honest whores way more than they like hypocrites.

A masterful PR rep with expertise in crisis management could have possibly salvaged this audience after the Josh situation, but the Duggars hired Chad Gallagher, a kid who promotes Christian public figures to other Christians. He couldn't have done a worse job as a mainstream and/or Christian crisis manager, because he just isn't one. Jim Boob and Mechelle went on Megyn Kelly and hammered almost all the nails into Josh's PR coffin with their lack of accountability, and then hit the final nail with that "joyfully available" rant. I could have coached them to give better answers. It was a total shit show. Josh isn't doing himself any favors letting those two helm his ship. I know I'm in the minority when I say he can still resurrect his image, contingent on him being sincerely remorseful, but I have zero faith that he is willing to hire the right people and do what it takes, mostly because I don't think Jim Bob would allow it. He's too controlling and judging by that Megyn Kelly interview, he ignores the emotional needs of a mainstream audience. (PR 101 textbook chapter 1: know the emotional needs of your audience.) So this audience is out, and this audience controls advertising. Show Josh, or Jim Bob and Michelle, to this audience, and it will kill both ad income and ratings. 

Third, the leg humpers, and their subgroup, the offended fundies. The leg humpers feel sorry for Jim Boob and Mechelle. They don't understand why people are angry at the parents for Josh's actions. They think they're good Christian people who had bad luck with that awful Josh and that awful Satan targeted their camp. This group holds Josh most accountable, and the Duggar parents are not held accountable. They'll be praying for the poor Duggars. They still want to watch Jim Boob and Mechelle, but are personally offended by Josh and don't want to see him. The offended fundies are similar with pity and blaming Satan, but mad at Jim Bob and Michelle for keeping secrets from them because they think the Duggars are personally obligated to divulge their entire lives as if they intimately know each other. Both groups are super comfortable with denial, so not seeing Josh means his problems don't exist. Problem solved!

This leaves us with three out of three audiences not wanting to see the guy. 

[NewSeasonOfLife]

One possible factor for the lack of Bates/Duggar courtships I'm not sure I've ever seen mentioned- TV contracts. It's pretty obvious to me that everyone in the respective families are bound by contract to their own network and can't appear in any real way on the other one. I recall seeing Jana as a bridesmaid at Michaela's wedding on BuB but she was barely shown onscreen, much less given speaking time. The families still hang out at least occasionally but as far as screen time the other family doesn't really exist on each show anymore  

If, for example, Joseph and Carlin had started a courtship, how would that have been worked out TV-wise? Carlin's probably the most prominent girl on BuB, and if she had ended up with Joseph and left the show to feature on Counting On that would have been a big gap to fill and possibly been an issue with Gil. But would Joseph, who isn't nearly as big of a presence on Counting On, left that show and been featured on BuB? Probably not, since that would have meant the loss of a storyline for JB.

So I could see that whole conundrum being a big factor between Gil and JB, because both of them look at everything with $$$ in mind. It might possibly be less of a deal with later kids - neither Katie or Josie are big storylines on BuB, and neither are the Jeb/Jer twins, so one of the kids could probably quietly leave and not be missed. But right now that might be too much of a barrier. 

[Million Children For Jesus]

32 minutes ago, NewSeasonOfLife said:

One possible factor for the lack of Bates/Duggar courtships I'm not sure I've ever seen mentioned- TV contracts. 

I thought this, too. Too tricky. Also, I think the Bates secretly dislike the Duggars. 

I wouldn't be surprised by a Josiah-Bates courtship though. He looks like he's eager for attention and is getting lost in the crowd at TTH. He would get the attention he is seeking by jumping ship and going BuB. 

I think Jed is the one "getting to know" Lauren Caldwell. They did that fake car light scene with Jed and Pastor Paul. 

I can't stand that I think Jeremiah is cute, because he looks like Jim Bob, but if I were a teen fundie, I would be all about him. I hope he gets a spunky girl and breaks free. 

32 minutes ago, NewSeasonOfLife said:

If, for example, Joseph and Carlin had started a courtship, how would that have been worked out TV-wise?

It wouldn't have worked. CO needs Joe and BuB needs Carlin. However, CO will survive without Josiah. It could even be a selling storyline to see him go. The pioneer Duggar boy that leaves home. Finally. He would be a ratings boost to BuB. From a business standpoint, a Josiah-Carlin match would make sense. I also think Josiah is so desperate to be included that he would go along with any idea Carlin hatches and then like it, even if it's a mess.

[Jilli]

Josiah seemed to me to be more relaxed with the Bates than he did when he was with the Duggars. But I hadn't thought about the tv contracts in that regard, and it's a very good point. Money seems to run JB, probably Gil too. Decisisions that hurt their brand must be avoided

[amendgitan]

2 hours ago, singsingsing said:

No worries, and thanks for the article btw! I love social history.

Me too! 

[amendgitan]

On 3/10/2017 at 2:35 PM, QuiverFullofBooks said:

Duggar Family Official FB has a new congratulations video up from Michelle and Jana. Michelle of course says that Kendra is sweet. Jana's contribution is "Congratulations, y'all. So excited for you." She doesn't look that excited.

No. She doesn't. She isn't able to feign happiness at all. It's so sad. 

2 hours ago, Million Children For Jesus said:

@GoatZombie

Yep. There definitely would be backlash if they featured Josh. The Duggars, which is the 19KaC brand and identified as Jim Bob and Michelle, who have J-kids in wholesome wear, had three audiences and all three don't want to see Josh. 

Those audiences are carrying over to the Counting On brand, but a good marketing team could create a new audience. (They haven't yet.) CO, if rebranded separate from 19KaC, was supposed to be a show about adult siblings carving out separate and new lives, so Jim Boob and Mechelle, in theory, don't need to be seen at all, or at least, very little, i.e. a walk down the aisle. Making it about "Duggar KIDS" is just bad marketing, since the Duggar brand is enmeshed with the Josh scandal. Josh is a bad "Duggar kid." So showing him would be extra bad marketing. They need CO to be a clean break, fresh start and new image. No Josh. No Jim Bob. They screw that up every time they show Jim Bob.

Side Note: Am I only one who remembers Frasier was a spin off? We can learn how to do a spin off by using Frasier as an example. Counting On is no Frasier. 

Our three Duggar audiences include the train chasers, the mainstream, and the leg humpers, with a leghumper subgroup, the fundies. 

First, the train chasers were waiting for a train wreck. They hate the lifestyle and wait for hypocrisy to be exposed. They already got the Josh train wreck. They're waiting for Derick to get the FBI or IRS raid for his fake nonprofit. Or Ben and Jessa to move into TTH with 6 kids and no jobs. There are new train wrecks to chase. Josh is old hat. So they don't want to see him.

Second, the mainstream audience, (insert advertising dollars here), which for this genre of reality tv will be the gawk and snark watchers. This audience is either indifferent, irritated, or depressed by Josh at this point. None of which is good for entertainment value. He isn't likable, so no cheering for the underdog, like we do with the other J-kids, and he isn't relatable, because seriously, I don't know anyone who molested their sister and screwed a porn star while his devoted wife sat at home pregnant with three children. Not a single one. Not even Charlie Sheen. He may have screwed porn stars, but he was never a hypocrite about it. People like honest whores way more than they like hypocrites.

A masterful PR rep with expertise in crisis management could have possibly salvaged this audience after the Josh situation, but the Duggars hired Chad Gallagher, a kid who promotes Christian public figures to other Christians. He couldn't have done a worse job as a mainstream and/or Christian crisis manager, because he just isn't one. Jim Boob and Mechelle went on Megyn Kelly and hammered almost all the nails into Josh's PR coffin with their lack of accountability, and then hit the final nail with that "joyfully available" rant. I could have coached them to give better answers. It was a total shit show. Josh isn't doing himself any favors letting those two helm his ship. I know I'm in the minority when I say he can still resurrect his image, contingent on him being sincerely remorseful, but I have zero faith that he is willing to hire the right people and do what it takes, mostly because I don't think Jim Bob would allow it. He's too controlling and judging by that Megyn Kelly interview, he ignores the emotional needs of a mainstream audience. (PR 101 textbook chapter 1: know the emotional needs of your audience.) So this audience is out, and this audience controls advertising. Show Josh, or Jim Bob and Michelle, to this audience, and it will kill both ad income and ratings. 

Third, the leg humpers, and their subgroup, the offended fundies. The leg humpers feel sorry for Jim Boob and Mechelle. They don't understand why people are angry at the parents for Josh's actions. They think they're good Christian people who had bad luck with that awful Josh and that awful Satan targeted their camp. This group holds Josh most accountable, and the Duggar parents are not held accountable. They'll be praying for the poor Duggars. They still want to watch Jim Boob and Mechelle, but are personally offended by Josh and don't want to see him. The offended fundies are similar with pity and blaming Satan, but mad at Jim Bob and Michelle for keeping secrets from them because they think the Duggars are personally obligated to divulge their entire lives as if they intimately know each other. Both groups are super comfortable with denial, so not seeing Josh means his problems don't exist. Problem solved!

This leaves us with three out of three audiences not wanting to see the guy. 

Brilliant post. 

[front hugs > duggs]

10 hours ago, amendgitan said:

No. She doesn't. She isn't able to feign happiness at all. It's so sad. 

I feel like they made her do the video with Michelle instead of JB because "we can't let people think that Jana is alone and unhappy, so let's put it upon her heart to say she's excited and happy even though she's almost the only adult left in the house". All the ideas they come up with to appease the critics end up backfiring. Every. Single. Time.

[Italiangirl]

14 minutes ago, front hugs > duggs said:

All the ideas they come up with to appease the critics end up backfiring. Every. Single. Time.

yeah i don't understand this, you may thik that now they should know better instead evry single time is worse and they continue to make the same mistakes

[nokidsmom]

31 minutes ago, Italiangirl said:

yeah i don't understand this, you may thik that now they should know better instead evry single time is worse and they continue to make the same mistakes

Exactly this.   And especially after the Megyn Kelly interview with JB and J'chelle (in the wake of Josh's molestations coming to light), which was a total disaster, just that one in itself would have been a major lesson in itself.

@Jaedzia thanks for your story.  I am becoming more convinced that it's going to be close to impossible for any Duggar kids in breaking away from their FOO family and it's programming.   I didn't grow up fundie but there's some similarities between my upbringing and some of the fundies we talk about here and it resonates with me.   Even then it's taken years for my to shed a lot of my FOO influences.  Waking up to some of this stuff was hard enough.  The biggest factor for me personally was that I had a good education and my family valued it even if they expected me to stuff it after college and live pretty much the life of a SAHD though I would be allowed to work and pay for my SAHD-hood. 

Seeing how these kids are basically uneducated with no work / life skills makes me think they will never completely escape the family's orbit.  Jill can't cope, Jessa still relies on her family for housing and support, Josh is going to be completely reliant on JB for the rest of his life, one son in law is chugging the kool aid and the other hasn't figured out yet what he's going to be when he grows up yet.   Remains to be seen of Jinger and Jeremy but Jinger married a right proper fundie and I can't imagine that too much will change for her even if she has some freedom and is wearing shorts.

I used to have hopes of one of them escaping but I never realized until recently how truly unprepared they are for any kind of independent life.

Regarding Jana, I really do feel for her.  I don't think she expected this would be her life at 27.  Even if not married, she should be living as an adult even if under her parent's roof.  But fundie parents (and even non fundie parents like mine) who supposedly believe children are not adults until married (and even if then) are going to maintain their authority and not recognize adult children as adults by virtue of age.  Nor do they relinquish control in spite of "leave and cleave"

[flycat]

I feel for Jana as well.  It has to be hard to watch her younger siblings pair off even if the pairings aren't spectacular. 

However, the lack of enthusiasm in the video could also be purely the age gap too. There is a 10 year age gap between my sister in laws and myself and it was hard when I first came around for them to actually want to spend time with me. I could see the same with Jana and Kendra, there is just too big of an age gap to be very excited.

 

[nausicaa]

16 hours ago, HarryPotterFan said:

Fucking tiny ass birth canals.

I remember reading that ideally the human gestation period should be longer, and newborns should be at the development stage of about a six week old. We're kind of born more helpless and undeveloped than really benefits us as a species. However, the already too small birth canal inhibits this. So yeah, go fuck off narrow ass birth canals.