Counting On: Season 3, Part 4: Fake Glares to Hide the Obvious

[calimojo]

I think Michelle got them to the fundie stage, but I think JB is an opportunist and that he saw early on how he could become a big fish in that culture and that was really drew him in.  In my mind,  Michelle was more of a true believer and JB was willing to go a long because he got a subservient wife who would be open to sex at all times,  He got the freak show element of a the huge family,  he got to be the big man, top dog, etc. 

I think he would probably have been with a more normal type of conservative religion, but I think the power trip of being a big deal in a fairly small pond was enticing for JB.  

I also wonder if Michelle eventually began to regret the move to gothardism to some degree but was in too deep to do much, plus the money started rolling in with the show, and the appearances, books, etc, so she felt like she had to stick with it. 

 

Who knows,  they both made terrible decisions, and have limited their kids options for their futures. 

 

I am not sure if I have ever mentioned this before, but I had a friend, who was very very active in the prolife movement in our state.  She even testified before congress so in that group, she was well known.  .  We were 'friends' from work, and wouldn't probably be friends in other circumstances.   Even though we weren't friends outside of work,  she was a pleasant person and actually had a good gut instinct about people.  

She has met the Duggars several times and has been to the house. In our state,  she was a fairly well known lobbyist for Pro-life causes.  Anyway,  She doesn't say much about JB,  but she absolutely insists that Michelle is one of the sweetest and kindest people she has met.  She says she has a good sense of humor as well.     I also got the impression that in her observation, that Michelle was more hands on as a parent than what is shown on the show. 

 

I don't know what to believe because like I said,  she is usually pretty good at reading people and her contact with them was more than just casual.  I haven't talked to her in years, so I have no idea what her take would be on things since the Josh situation.  I don't recall her ever talking about him by name so I am not sure if she ever had met him. 

 

But I do remember it being such a contradiction to what I observed on the show.  From the beginning, I never saw Michelle as this amazing wonderwoman mother.  It all seemed odd to me.  I didn't watch them closely in the beginning, so I didn't fully appreciate just how disturbing and cult-like it all was.  But hearing this person's impressions of Michelle in particular, was just interesting. 

 

[SweetFellowshipper]

51 minutes ago, grandmadugger said:

I've suspected it was Michelle for awhile.  I don't remember the interview but they were asked about what the kids could do as jobs in the future.  JB was talking about how Jill wanted to be a nurse and such and Michelle shot him down with the girls ultimate job was to be a wife and mother.  It made it seem like JB would have been OK with the girls have regular lives it was Michelle that reduced them to wife and mother.

He was also the one who was more excited about Jill's midwifery and suggested the girls just wear pants to be firefighters. He's also seemed much more understanding in the courtships. 

I'm by no means "defending" him but Michelle has always seemed like the "driver" of the most extreme parts of the cray. 

[Jilli]

I agree with that. I'm no fan of JB, but he always seemed slightly more reasonable with his daughters, than Michelle ever did. That isn't saying much, but I think he deserves that credit.

[justmy2cents]

3 hours ago, picklepizzas said:

So in these families with "getting to know you periods" like the duggars and bates - do we know much about how that starts? Does the guy come to the dad and say "I would like to enter a get to know you but not quite a courtship?" 

I don't remember them discussing any protocol but Jeremy did say that he asked JB if he could get to know Jinger in early Dec. 2015.  I just can't imagine a guy asking my dad if he could talk to me.

[Rio]

On 2/21/2017 at 4:33 PM, onekidanddone said:

Because he is faaaaaaaaabulous 

My mom only had three, but she still confused us with the dog from time to time.

 

LOL I go through my husband, both sons and the cat and hope one is the right name! Sometimes I just say "What's his face" but they don't like that much!

 

[StepMonsterInLA]

@VeganCupcake alright I motion to 100% ignore @VeganCupcake and her posts.  She went from being super sexed gal to fundie daughter in 3 days. 

I stay OUT of the Dugs because I don't have anything to contribute. I wish @VeganCupcake the same fate. This is all horseshit. 

Ignore and she will go away? 

[Scrabblemaster]

6 hours ago, justmy2cents said:

I don't remember them discussing any protocol but Jeremy did say that he asked JB if he could get to know Jinger in early Dec. 2015.  I just can't imagine a guy asking my dad if he could talk to me.

I can imagine my reaction if a guy asked my dad for permission to talk to me. If he did not have the guts to talk to me directly i would not have talked to him. If he thought i would talk to him just because my dad likes him, without thinking about my opinion, i would not have talked to him. I appreciate my dad's opinion, but he never would have liked to be my door to the world. 

I can imagine my dad's reaction to such sort of guy. A guy who asked my dad for permission to get to know me would never ever have got his permission. Because my dad considers bis daughter as an independant woman with her own mind.

[SassyPants]

10 hours ago, calimojo said:

I think Michelle got them to the fundie stage, but I think JB is an opportunist and that he saw early on how he could become a big fish in that culture and that was really drew him in.  In my mind,  Michelle was more of a true believer and JB was willing to go a long because he got a subservient wife who would be open to sex at all times,  He got the freak show element of a the huge family,  he got to be the big man, top dog, etc. 

I think he would probably have been with a more normal type of conservative religion, but I think the power trip of being a big deal in a fairly small pond was enticing for JB.  

I also wonder if Michelle eventually began to regret the move to gothardism to some degree but was in too deep to do much, plus the money started rolling in with the show, and the appearances, books, etc, so she felt like she had to stick with it. 

 

Who knows,  they both made terrible decisions, and have limited their kids options for their futures. 

 

I am not sure if I have ever mentioned this before, but I had a friend, who was very very active in the prolife movement in our state.  She even testified before congress so in that group, she was well known.  .  We were 'friends' from work, and wouldn't probably be friends in other circumstances.   Even though we weren't friends outside of work,  she was a pleasant person and actually had a good gut instinct about people.  

She has met the Duggars several times and has been to the house. In our state,  she was a fairly well known lobbyist for Pro-life causes.  Anyway,  She doesn't say much about JB,  but she absolutely insists that Michelle is one of the sweetest and kindest people she has met.  She says she has a good sense of humor as well.     I also got the impression that in her observation, that Michelle was more hands on as a parent than what is shown on the show. 

 

I don't know what to believe because like I said,  she is usually pretty good at reading people and her contact with them was more than just casual.  I haven't talked to her in years, so I have no idea what her take would be on things since the Josh situation.  I don't recall her ever talking about him by name so I am not sure if she ever had met him. 

 

But I do remember it being such a contradiction to what I observed on the show.  From the beginning, I never saw Michelle as this amazing wonderwoman mother.  It all seemed odd to me.  I didn't watch them closely in the beginning, so I didn't fully appreciate just how disturbing and cult-like it all was.  But hearing this person's impressions of Michelle in particular, was just interesting. 

 

I think that Michelle probably was a decent mother to the first 5-6 children. IMO, no one can parent 19 like they can 2,4, 6 kids. The day does not get longer and the only additional hands you have are those belonging to children. Personally, I think this is why Jana is putting off a relationship. She has already parented 10 kids, she probably does not want to jump right back into that grind...the longer she waits, the fewer potential children she'll likely have to raise.

[nokidsmom]

3 hours ago, Scrabblemaster said:

I can imagine my reaction if a guy asked my dad for permission to talk to me. If he did not have the guts to talk to me directly i would not have talked to him. If he thought i would talk to him just because my dad likes him, without thinking about my opinion, i would not have talked to him. I appreciate my dad's opinion, but he never would have liked to be my door to the world. 

 

I can't imagine any guy asking permission from my Dad to talk to me, it would turn me off on the guy for sure.  But knowing my Dad, if presented with this situation, he would have not have given his permission.  Love my Dad, but he was always overly anxious and worried about his daughters with guys (not to mention possessive) he insisted on meeting them all before going out and I know for a fact he did scare a couple of them off.   It was one reason why my sisters did not openly date, they met the guy elsewhere. So I think if any actually approached him first, his answer would be no.

[crawfishgirl]

Not sure if this article has been mentioned before (there are so many Duggar threads that I am unable to read them all), but I'll put it here just in case.  It discusses how they edited Josh out of the wedding episode.  It's an interesting read.  This article was written after the wedding episode initially aired last fall, so some of the scenes that were shown in this week's episode weren't in the original one.  

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3979166/18-Kids-Counting-Josh-Duggar-kept-Jinger-s-TV-wedding-special-despite-church-thanks-TLC-s-camera-cuts-blocking-using-toddler-son-Marcus-face-shield.html

 

[VeganCupcake]

10 hours ago, StepMonsterInLA said:

@VeganCupcake alright I motion to 100% ignore @VeganCupcake and her posts.  She went from being super sexed gal to fundie daughter in 3 days. 

I stay OUT of the Dugs because I don't have anything to contribute. I wish @VeganCupcake the same fate. This is all horseshit. 

Ignore and she will go away? 

I WAS a fundie daughter growing up, then later my parents quit the cult and put us into public school like a lot of other people! I am now a young adult with a boyfriend and a secular life. What is so hard to believe about that?? 

[JMO]

57 minutes ago, crawfishgirl said:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3979166/18-Kids-Counting-Josh-Duggar-kept-Jinger-s-TV-wedding-special-despite-church-thanks-TLC-s-camera-cuts-blocking-using-toddler-son-Marcus-face-shield.html

 

Do you know what's sad?  It irritates me that they had Marcus' age wrong at some points in the article and then towards the bottom they incorrectly identified the boys as they were seated in the pew.  Le sigh.   Otherwise it's a great play by play of how it was done. 

[candygirl200413]

I also love the author's use of the word sex pest to describe Josh

[onekidanddone]

27 minutes ago, candygirl200413 said:

I also love the author's use of the word sex pest to describe Josh

Eww.  Just ewww. 

[MamaJunebug]

4 hours ago, candygirl200413 said:

I also love the author's use of the word sex pest to describe Josh

You took the words right offa my keyboard!!!!!

[QuiverFullofBooks]

5 hours ago, candygirl200413 said:

I also love the author's use of the word sex pest to describe Josh

It's a British expression.

[Snarkle Motion]

22 hours ago, SweetFellowshipper said:

He was also the one who was more excited about Jill's midwifery and suggested the girls just wear pants to be firefighters. He's also seemed much more understanding in the courtships. 

I'm by no means "defending" him but Michelle has always seemed like the "driver" of the most extreme parts of the cray. 

I've always viewed Michelle as someone who has been truly broken by a cult. Like they talk about how stallions are broken. Basically their spirit and free will breaks and they reach a point where it just makes more sense to follow the directions of their trainer and they become compliant to their trainer's will. That's how I view michelle and the laundry room was her breaking point. She could have given up, lost her mind, left, renounced the lifestyle, but instead that was the moment she double downed. She completely submitted and gave in to the cult and has no free will or spirit left. The rules of the cult are the principles that have saved her (through happenstance with tv show money and sister moms but I'm sure it feels like "God"). Her crazy eyes remind me of the crazy eyes you see in military people who have been through a different type of trauma and being broken but same idea. The blank stare with nothing behind it. The follow the rules and nothing else matters stare.  

Not defending her but I don't think she started out this way. I'm not sure she's capable of change or challenging her beliefs at this point, but I associate that with trauma and the cult offering her a semblance of order and "protection" and hope. 

[fundiefan]

On 2/21/2017 at 11:40 AM, HarleyQuinn said:

I just went through a mental list of family and friends to see if I could come up with 19 birthdates, and I could. (really, she only needs to remember 17 of them since twins)

Work harder, Michelle. I wonder if I know more of my friends' birthdays than she does her own children?

I did the same. I have a relatively close extended family with cousins and their kids and aunts and uncles. I could say, while sitting here, the birthdays of every one of them, over 40 people. I don't remember the years of all, but the dates are pretty solid in my memory banks. 

It is not hard to remember 19 birthdays if you care enough to do so. 

Of course, I haven't birthed all those family members so my brain cells have not been sucked into my uterus to create life rather than remember those lives. I also see every one of them as individual human beings with their own lives/purposes/reasons for existing, unlike Michelle's view of her offspring being gifts from her god for being a perfect Christian. To her, the people she birthed have a purpose entirely unrelated to them as actual human beings. So, I guess that affects their worth, and what you care to remember or acknowledge about them. 

[BlessaYourHeart]

On 24/02/2017 at 6:15 AM, Rio said:

LOL I go through my husband, both sons and the cat and hope one is the right name! Sometimes I just say "What's his face" but they don't like that much!

 

My mum only has me - yet she calls me loads of cousins names sometimes before my own  she even called me a male cousins name one time

[albanuadh_1]

IMHO, Michelle probably does know the birthdates. I think the remark was an off-side. People were making remarks about birthdays and she wanted to join in the conversation. Or... it was a way of reminding everyone that she gave birth to NINETEEN children.

[ModestisHottest]

On 2/22/2017 at 4:52 AM, JillyO said:

Like others have said, it's a super popular, Pinterest-y thing to do at weddings right now. Except it usually says stuff like "first date," "first kiss," etc. Here's a few examples behind the spoiler:

  Hide contents

It actually cracks me up to see it done for a courtship. On their wedding date, they could add 'first front hug, first kiss, first time alone together, first sex, moving in together'...

This is a random observation but that last one is for sure from a Mormon reception. "For time and all eternity" is the give away since they believe you stay married FOREVER (even in heaven).

Also, first time quoting and hoping it works with the spoiler! 

[Analytica49]

On 2017-02-24 at 0:02 AM, calimojo said:

Who knows,  they both made terrible decisions, and have limited their kids options for their futures. 

 

I entirely agree. BUT, I would bet that MEEEchelle and Jim-Boob, at this stage of their lives, are actually congratulating themselves and each other on the FABULOUS job they have (supposedly) done.

I would guess they they think they are complete successes as parents. After all, they have lots of wealth (property, cars, planes, houses); they have a good-looking family of nineteen children, and NONE of them have departed from the Quiverful cult; they have extensive media attention, so that they can engage in "ministry" for us heathens; and now their oldest children are marrying similar cultish Christians and are continuing to perpetrate the beliefs and life styles that the parents have modelled for three decades.

It really annoys the heck out of me, but I think they just regard Josh as a minor "oops," which they can ignore, and they continue to think of themselves as parents not just of the year but of the century.

In short, the way their lives are going, they have learned NOTHING about the real value, meaning, and consequences of their decisions.

I see no evidence of humility or honesty whatsoever in their understandings of their lives.

[calimojo]

2 hours ago, Analytica49 said:

I entirely agree. BUT, I would bet that MEEEchelle and Jim-Boob, at this stage of their lives, are actually congratulating themselves and each other on the FABULOUS job they have (supposedly) done.

I would guess they they think they are complete successes as parents. After all, they have lots of wealth (property, cars, planes, houses); they have a good-looking family of nineteen children, and NONE of them have departed from the Quiverful cult; they have extensive media attention, so that they can engage in "ministry" for us heathens; and now their oldest children are marrying similar cultish Christians and are continuing to perpetrate the beliefs and life styles that the parents have modelled for three decades.

It really annoys the heck out of me, but I think they just regard Josh as a minor "oops," which they can ignore, and they continue to think of themselves as parents not just of the year but of the century.

In short, the way their lives are going, they have learned NOTHING about the real value, meaning, and consequences of their decisions.

I see no evidence of humility or honesty whatsoever in their understandings of their lives.

I have no doubt that you are right.  I am quite sure they were puzzled by the reaction to the news of Josh's past when it became public, because, as you said,  to them it was a minor blemish on an otherwise perfect record of godly parenting.   

While I do have to give JB credit for being savvy when it comes to making money,  I don't think either of them has the ability to have any kind of insight.  I don't think they possess that kind of intellect. 

[ModestisHottest]

On 2/24/2017 at 0:29 AM, Jilli said:

I agree with that. I'm no fan of JB, but he always seemed slightly more reasonable with his daughters, than Michelle ever did. That isn't saying much, but I think he deserves that credit.

Agreed.  Remember her reaction when one of the courting couples (maybe Jessa and Ben?) held hand to pray before they were engaged?She was super concerned about it but JB acted like it was no big deal (cause it wasn't).

[calimojo]

I have seen that scene a few times and each time I see it differently.  At first, I just thought she was over dramatizing it for the show.  Then another time, I really felt like Michelle was a zealot in their courtship rules and was truly shocked.  Another time, I felt like she was truly alarmed and looked at JB to see his response because she was almost fearful that he would melt down, but when he more or less shrugged it off, she seemed to relax. 

 

Later with Jeremy and Jinger, after the proposal,  I felt like she was minimizing their pushing of the boundaries of the courtship rules to JB when he asked.  She sort of smiled, shrugged and said something about it is hard to keep two magnets apart, or something.    She didn't seem nearly as bothered by the physical affection that Jeremy and Jinger showed, compared to JB. 

 

So I don't know what to think.  Could it be that Michelle herself has changed?  Could it be that she is having a realization that some aspects of their control over adult children is wrong.  Who knows?