Counting On: Season 3, Part 4: Fake Glares to Hide the Obvious

[Destiny]

Just now, VeganCupcake said:

Well regardless of income you will have to pay for childcare until the baby is school age if you continue working. 

Regardless of income? I feel like you have a fair bit to learn about how the world works and what happens to low income and single mothers. 

[singsingsing]

3 minutes ago, VeganCupcake said:

Well regardless of income you will have to pay for childcare until the baby is school age if you continue working. 

Many women find themselves in an impossible situation - they can't afford not to work, but if they work they have to pay for childcare, and they can't afford it. If you make enough money where you work to pay for a full time nanny, congrats, you're one of the lucky ones.

[MargaretElliott]

Agreed! Childcare costs are utterly ridiculous, especially in my area. My mother was lucky enough to live near my grandmother, who practically raised me while both my parents worked full time. It's a catch-22, a paradoxical situation from which an individual cannot escape because of contradictory rules. It's certainly daunting to think about. Not to mention the maternity leave (or lack thereof) in the USA 

[JillyO]

2 hours ago, nausicaa said:

This is a really interesting discussion. As an American, I've always thought of Germany as really progressive and one of the least sexist western countries. But granted, I've never actually been there...

Does the German government or private businesses have any quota type systems in hiring, or even an EEO Commission? I work as a contractor for the U.S. government in a very male-dominated field. We are always looking for more female inspectors/engineers (as well as POC) and are always thrilled when we find one who specializes in what we do and wants to work with us.

Since we're contractors we aren't subject to the same Federal hiring rules, but things sometimes just don't look great when a team is made up exclusively of white middle-aged men. 

@eveandadam keep your head up, and know that a trilingual female engineer would be snatched up around these parts! (But you'd have to work in a building with a big ol' picture of Trump looking at you every day...

It certainly is progressive in many ways. I don't know if it's one of the least sexist western countries, since I'm not sure how one would measure that. It certainly isn't some feminist utopia, that's for sure.  We do have hiring quotas in some areas, but only to a very limited extent. Just like every other country, we have a long way to go still.

ETA: In terms of both parental leave (yes, that goes for men and women) and child-care costs, Germany is definitely paradise compared to the U.S. You get two-thirds of your annual salary for up to one year (mother or father, whoever stays home with the kid, but the amount is capped somewhere), and then you have a legal claim to a child-care spot (not free unless you are very low-income, but highly subsidized) after the kid turns one.

[eveandadam]

12 minutes ago, JillyO said:

It certainly is progressive in many ways. I don't know if it's one of the least sexist western countries, since I'm not sure how one would measure that. It certainly isn't some feminist utopia, that's for sure.  We do have hiring quotas in some areas, but only to a very limited extent. Just like every other country, we have a long way to go still.

ETA: In terms of both parental leave (yes, that goes for men and women) and child-care costs, Germany is definitely paradise compared to the U.S. You get two-thirds of your annual salary for up to one year (mother or father, whoever stays home with the kid, but the amount is capped somewhere), and then you have a legal claim to a child-care spot (not free unless you are very low-income, but highly subsidized) after the kid turns one.

I know several women who couldn't return to work because they couldn't get daycare after staying at home a whole year after birth, so they had to extend being absent from work because of the shortage. And I don't know a single case of the man staying at home more than the required 2 months to get the payed leave. the other 10 or more months it's up to the woman most of the time and if there is no daycare available, well, there goes her career if they are not lucky enough to have grandparents nearby to help with the kid. Legal claim blablabla, there are not enough child-care spots to put your kid, at least not in my city.

[JillyO]

6 minutes ago, eveandadam said:

I know several women who couldn't return to work because they couldn't get daycare after staying at home a whole year after birth, so they had to extend being absent from work because of the shortage. And I don't know a single case of the man staying at home more than the required 2 months to get the payed leave. the other 10 or more months it's up to the woman most of the time and if there is no daycare available, well, there goes her career if they are not lucky enough to have grandparents nearby to help with the kid. Legal claim blablabla, there are not enough child-care spots to put your kid, at least not in my city.

Well, yeah, it's far from perfect. There is still a shortage of day-care spots for kids under two, but we're definitely on a good way. And it's light years better than anything in the U.S. I know several men who have stayed home with kids. One of my co-workers is currently on parental leave for his second daughter; they're splitting the time (she stayed home for six months, now he's staying home for six months). They did the same thing for their first daughter three years ago. But I think you said you're in Bavaria. I can imagine that - because of the more conservative culture - things are pretty different there. I'm in Berlin.

[AlternativeVoice]

4 hours ago, IReallyAmHopewell said:

Because he's the FABULOUS David Waller!!! He's FABULOUS!

 Jill has become "one" with her headship--husband. Like the Dowager Countess on Downton said once, "her husband will tell her her opinions" [paraphrased]. She is not supposed to think for herself. She is to adore her husband and listen with rapt, eager attention when he speaks. She must never contradict him--especially in public. She is to support him and accept his views as the Gospel truth. UGH Welcome to 1843

More Pinterest-y wedding cute-crap

But who would want a wife like that ? Where is the fun? The debates? The ideas ? The silly arguments? The wisdom? Where is the marriage ? 

[front hugs > duggs]

I work at a Fortune 500 Company in the US and while I'm not anywhere near ready to have a child, the outlook is pretty daunting. The company policy on maternity leave is the government minimum (12 weeks unpaid), which is horrible IMO. Then, we had a women's panel, where four women who are high up in the company, answered questions about being a female in a corporate workplace. When asked about work-life balance, one said how her mom does everything for her regarding childcare. Um. This isn't an option for everyone! Certainly not me. It was soooo super discouraging to hear how difficult being a successful professional and successful mother may be. I definitely feel envy for my English in-laws and their seemingly endless bank holidays and family leave.

ETA: I love my job. I want to work and I want to have a family. This shouldn't be impossible.

[Queen]

6 hours ago, VeganCupcake said:

Yes maternity leave laws are so unfair because they penalize women, even those who never want kids, by causing all women to be seen as a liability. The ultimate solution would be to enforce a mandatory paid leave for DADS as well when they have a kid. That would even the playing field. 

Women would still be seen as a risk since they are usually the ones to stay home with the kid when he gets sick at school, leave early for the piano recital, etc. Or just up and quit the minute they get pregnant. But it would at least be an improvement over the way things are now. 

One dudebro at my high school proudly proclaimed that if he had two equally qualified candidates for a job, a woman and a man, he would choose the man. Because "women have children!"  Obviously I gave him a fierce and feminist answer. He made me pretty angry...

Some politicians in my country are proposing a law that requires the dad to take out at least 1/3 of the paid parental leave (which is 18 months altogether). It is called the 6 + 6 + 6 model; 6 months for parent A, 6 months for parent B, and 6 months of 100% free choice. It's not perfect, but it's a start. The current requirement for dads/parent B is around 2-3 weeks, I think. Which is better than nothing! I see more and more dads going out with their children in strollers and it makes me happy  

4 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

For as big of a douche as JB is, he does genuinely love his kids, he gets very sappy and emotional at the girls weddings. I'm still not sure if Michelle is drugged out of her mind or just out of her mind, most of the time she just looks like a badly dressed Stepford wife. 

Let's not forget the reason Michelle is so checked out is largely because of the cult and JB. I think she would have been much better off in an equal marriage where she'd be allowed to be a person, not a submissive sex doll and baby maker with more kids than she (or anyone) could possibly handle. 

[Carm_88]

Ah getting called the wrong name. I spent a lot of time with my grandparent, not because my parents worked (my mom was a stay at home Mom) but because for 6 years, I was an only child. So I needed kids to play with and off to Nanny's house, I went. The issue was at the I was 5, there were 9-10 of us all there. So the relative that would get asked to do something for one kid could go down through about 9 names before they got mine. And there were pets thrown in. I think sometimes it was done to make us laugh.

[lumpentheologie]

31 minutes ago, Queen said:

It is called the 6 + 6 + 6 model; 6 months for parent A, 6 months for parent B, and 6 months of 100% free choice. 

The 6+6+6 model??  Obviously the devil's politics! 

[Chocolatedefrauded]

Everyone I know with kids uses family or close friends to babysit or pays huge amounts for daycare or just stays home. It can be hard to find a spot in a good day care. Usually you end up working for very little after paying for daycare.

After my maternity leave, I went back to work and hubby watched the baby in between sleeping short shifts before work. We hired a babysitter for a few hours a day & she quit after a few days. Back to square one. He was exhausted.  We had no luck finding a spot in a good local daycare. When I got laid off, we decided I would stay home for a while. Turned out to be 4.5 years.

we got in the hole without my working and are just getting out, 7 years later. No vacations for years, driving 12-15 year old cars, any money we tried to save has gone to home repairs or emergencies.

Despite this, we are pretty happy. Our kid is happy & health. I'm working hard to get a promotion. My husband hasn't had a raise or promotion in about 10 years & worries his job could vanish at any time. But we cope. It brought us closer. We learned that we can endure & survive 

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

6 hours ago, VeganCupcake said:

So true. This issue is insanely frustrating. Esp for someone like me who NEVER wants a kid. And in the event I did have one, I would take the least time off possible, and get a nanny to take care of the baby. 

I wish more companies encouraged bringing newborns along to work. It's not feasible for all jobs, but newborns are actually not very disruptive, and sleep most of the time. It would be cool to see moms AND DADS walking around the office with a baby carrier. 

NEVER want kids, eh? Aren't you the same person who said between you and condom-phobic boyfriend, you're the one who wouldn't so much mind getting pregnant? Your posts are starting to annoy me. 

[CorruptionInc.]

2 hours ago, MargaretElliott said:

Agreed! Childcare costs are utterly ridiculous, especially in my area. My mother was lucky enough to live near my grandmother, who practically raised me while both my parents worked full time. It's a catch-22, a paradoxical situation from which an individual cannot escape because of contradictory rules. It's certainly daunting to think about. Not to mention the maternity leave (or lack thereof) in the USA 

The same goes in Australia. The childcare up the road from me in a "fancy" area costs more per day (per child) than I earn in a day.

[Jiraffe]

Regardless of income? Nope. Many, many many single moms wind up on welfare after having a child. They can't go back to work, because they either can't find daycare (can't get a spot, don't have family who don't work that can take care of the baby etc), or can't afford it. In my town I have heard stories of daycare costing around $700-$1000 a month, although I have no proof or frame of reference as I don't have kids. But to me, an added expense of $700 a month would be daunting and I am married with two equal, decent incomes in the house. 

I had an oopsie pregnancy a few years back. FWIW, it was a "I don't like condoms" guy who decided one morning to wake me up with sex. Unprotected sex. Yes, you read that right and yes I know that was essentially rape as I did not consent. He did not finish inside me as I woke up and realized what he was doing and was not okay with it. So basically, that was a pre-cum baby. He had loads of money, I did not, although I worked full time I didn't make a living wage. But he was an abuser, and I wasn't going to continue to subject myself to that, so I would have been a single mom. And if it had been a girl he would not have even paid child support if I tried, cause he never wanted a girl. As I've mentioned here before, I miscarried.

I would've had nobody to watch the baby upon going back to work, and nobody to help pay the bills. My income was around $1000 a month. My rent was $400. Add in $700 a month daycare and...hmmm, you can't, because that's more than I made. I would have had to go on welfare. Not get a nanny or pay for childcare. Because my income just wasn't there. Additionally, I'm in Canada, we get one year of paid maternity leave. However, it's not 100% of your pay, I believe it's 55%. So even that is brutal for low income mothers.

I've tried not to get involved cause I don't like to wade into conflict, I like to stick to snark, but man, I had to get this out. Some things you don't know or learn unless they happen to you, or someone you know. Well, I hope myself and ALL of us here can be that "someone you know", because there are a lot of examples here that I really think are important to learn from.

/end rant

[fish_ca]

sorry for interrupting the latest discussion...

I'm going through wtffundiefamilies screen caps of Jinger wedding episode and this is litterally my first connotation...a very negative connotation

just in case NSFW

I'm sorry in advance if this offens anyone or it is too controversial for this forum but my european brain can't get rid of this connotation...and I had quite bad day today

Spoiler

these outfits remind me of hitlerjugend uniforms...I don't like them at all. Very bad choice.

 

 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

3 hours ago, JemimaPuddle-Duck said:

NEVER want kids, eh? Aren't you the same person who said between you and condom-phobic boyfriend, you're the one who wouldn't so much mind getting pregnant? Your posts are starting to annoy me.

She seems to be young and optimistic. Life will slap her upside the head soon enough. 

[Iamtheway]

When I read about the situation for mothers in other countries I am so happy I live in Sweden. Actually I'm happy about it most of the time. It's a pretty good place despite what you may have heard about it in recent days.

We have lots of paid leave. Each parent have 90 days and then there are 300 days that either one can use. Fathers are taking out more and more leave. It's a slow progress. Most of my friends have split the leave pretty evenly. We still have days left. You can save some days until your child is 12. Mr Way takes a day a week right now to give Miniway (and himself) a shorter week. If you have small children you have a legal right to work part time.

Daycare is the norm here. Your child can start when it's 12 months but most start later. Daycare is heavily subsidised. We pay 140 USD a month and that is the maximum where I live. It's cheaper if you earn less. And the second child costs less then the first. 

There is obviously still discrimination here too and things that could work better. But I do think we have a pretty good deal. 

[onekidanddone]

18 hours ago, Hokey Pokey said:

What an incredibly bizarre thing to display

Consider the source.  They don't go to school. They don't have jobs.  They don't have hobbies.  This is all the girls have. That, and the pregnancy chalk board.

[VeganCupcake]

On 2/21/2017 at 11:57 AM, 2manyKidzzz said:

I give Jeremy a nod for being employed in a real way. His fundie stance is awful and so I say his redeeming characteristic is the "job" as it seems to be "real". 

That is all.  

Yes at least he does something where he gets paid. 

On 2/21/2017 at 2:43 PM, Nikedagain? said:

So Derick is my absolute least favorite Duggar ever. When he got up there to speak, JinJer looked momentarily stricken.

I also noticed Jinger appearing to cringe at those dumb speeches, but then I thought maybe she's just afraid she will get emotional & cry. 

On 2/21/2017 at 4:10 PM, RosyDaisy said:

That would be because Grandpa Duggar didn't approve of the cult and was vocal about it.

That's some tea. What did he do/say to disapprove? 

22 hours ago, PumaLover said:

So JB wasn't raised QF? I didn't know that. How did he come about to be that way? I remember reading a long time ago that he and Michelle blamed birth control for their miscarriages and that's why they stopped using it. Is that how it happened?

This entire homeschool/QF/Gothard fundie fringe culture wasn't a thing until the mid eighties or so, and didn't really hit it's stride until the 90s. I guess strict Catholic families have always been "quiverfull" in the sense that they disapprove birth control but they don't homeschool or do the rest of the markings of the QF culture that started with a chain of events such as Mary Pride putting  "The Way Home" 

[Fun Undies]

Here in Minnesota, at least the area I live in - most women are SAHM, especially until their children are school age.  

I know of one mom who was a teacher, and calculated after childcare costs, she was earning 2$ an hour :/

The cheapest FT daycare I found in my area was 1500/mo.  That's for one child, and I have 2.  Even with a slight sibling discount, it'd cost me 2.5k a month.  Oi.

So unless you have a big career, a lot of savings, or family who are willing to watch your kids full time (and unfortunately can burn out easily being decades older, watching babies a good 50 hours a week), it makes more (financial) sense to stay home.  

I like being a SAHM (I only looked into part time daycare 2 days a week to get errands done, and help my family with various doctor appointments), but every woman shouldn't have to choose between work and kids.  It should be an option to be able to do both.

[nst]

I was finally able to downoald the episode.

i find Jeremy and jinge are totally snobbish.  They come across as too good for the show. Jinge clearly escaped.

she escaped the tth yes but she didn't escape her family.

 

[cindyluvs24]

On 2/21/2017 at 0:00 PM, MargaretElliott said:

Of all the things I snark on Michelle about, this isn't it. She's not a devoted mother, she's drowned in kool-aid, and she's more than a little crazy... but 19 (17?) birthdays is a lot to remember  

True but if she can memorize bible verses, she can memorize birthdays.

[Nashville92]

@Fun Undies $1500 a month is outrageous.  The most I've heard of around here is $1000 a month, and that's at a private school.  Most are $100-$125 a week where I live.  I realize that's probably low compared to a lot but I live in a small rural town without a lot of money so the extra expense of child care is too much for some.  I work for a large company and they offer unpaid maternity leave, I mentioned one time I'd like some and they thought that was awful.

[calimojo]

26 minutes ago, nst said:

I was finally able to downoald the episode.

i find Jeremy and jinge are totally snobbish.  They come across as too good for the show. Jinge clearly escaped.

she escaped the tth yes but she didn't escape her family.

 

I have to disagree.  I did not detect snobbishness, but if Jinger has decided she needs to have a break from her upbringing,  isn't that what we have all wanted for her?   As long as Jinger was in the house,  she had to do the show as that was expected of her.  Now the she is married and has moved away,  she may have more choices.  I think she will continue to be on the show, but less often.    I definitely do not get the impression by Jinger ever, that she is snobby.  Wanting to separate, have her own life, yes, but snobbish, no.