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Counting On: Season 3, Part 4: Fake Glares to Hide the Obvious


choralcrusader8613

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17 minutes ago, eveandadam said:

-snip-
Maybe it's just women in engineering who are discriminated against but not in other fields, I don't know.

Can someone please tell me that it gets better? I'm starting to loose my drive completely.

My Mom's German - and I spent seven years in German schools (90-97), before we moved to America (so obviously, my experiences might not be relevant anymore) . . . but I wouldn't be shocked if it's a "woman"/sexist thing.

I mean, in the schools I went to, the boys and girls were separated to teach "life skills" - the boys went to woodworking and engineering classes.  The girls to knit and sew.  If it's that ingrained that engineering is "for the boys", from childhood - it very well could be that even an educated person such as you, isn't being considered for the job because of your gender.  Which of course is horrible.

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26 minutes ago, Fun Undies said:

My Mom's German - and I spent seven years in German schools (90-97), before we moved to America (so obviously, my experiences might not be relevant anymore) . . . but I wouldn't be shocked if it's a "woman"/sexist thing.

I mean, in the schools I went to, the boys and girls were separated to teach "life skills" - the boys went to woodworking and engineering classes.  The girls to knit and sew.  If it's that ingrained that engineering is "for the boys", from childhood - it very well could be that even an educated person such as you, isn't being considered for the job because of your gender.  Which of course is horrible.

Thank you so much for your comment. Yes it is quite extreme in Germany, compared to other western, first-world countries. In East Germany it is still a little better than in the rest of the country, but I found it most extrem in Bavaria, where I live now. I'm starting to regret having studied engineering instead of something more "girly" like languages, education, administration or even design.

I'm pretty amazed at how it doesn't seem to be such a problem in the U.S. (or am I wrong?). There are more extrem views in the U.S. for different lifestyles, e.g. the Duggars, but overall and on average I think the U.S. actually is a lot less sexist than Germany. The laws are also in such a way that you cannot fire a women at all if she get's pregnant or is on (payed) maternity leave. As an employer you have to hold her position ready for her until she returns to the job 3 years (!) later or get's pregnant, again. I see that this law is well meant, but because of it employers will hesitate to give any job to women at all.

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8 minutes ago, eveandadam said:

Thank you so much for your comment. Yes it is quite extreme in Germany, compared to other western, first-world countries. In East Germany it is still a little better than in the rest of the country, but I found it most extrem in Bavaria, where I live now. I'm starting to regret having studied engineering instead of something more "girly" like languages, education, administration or even design.

-snip-

No problem ~ I can't add anything else, except to say that I went to school in Bavaria!  Ugh, good luck hun . . . I hope things improve for you soon!

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12 hours ago, front hugs > duggs said:

My grandma had two children, and only four grandchildren. She consistently used only three of our names (all three J names) between the six of us(not all J names), and sometimes added in the name Jasper, even though no man or pet in our family ever had that name. So yes, me as a six year old little girl, sometimes got called Jasper.  

Grandma died a few years ago, but we'll still call each other Jasper randomly and laugh about it :56247976a36a8_Gigglespatgiggle:

That's a sweet/funny memory. :my_heart:

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1 hour ago, eveandadam said:

I know first hand that from the students who graduated with me ( it was about 50:50 regarding sex in our class) the men could find a job within their first 10 or so applications whereas the women, especially the ones older than 25, haven't been able to find a job, yet; I know of 2 girls of my class who got a job, but they are 24 and 23 years old with master's degrees, those were the only ones. All the other women are still writing applications until their fingers bleed, including myself.

 

That's it. Older than 25 means the women could want children in the next years. And yes, it is absolutely discriminating. I even know a woman who was asked the question you are not allowed to ask in an interview: you will be 30 next years. Do you want to have children? I don't know how i would react. Definitely not as cool as she did. She said, "Of course i want to have children. I won't lie to you right now. "  Maybe you should answer something like this: " absolutely! Right after this interview i will have some eggs planted in my uterus, because my husband and i want some triplets. Minimum. I even thought about cancelling our appointment.  Because priorities you know?"

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1 hour ago, eveandadam said:

 

I think the U.S. actually is a lot less sexist than Germany. The laws are also in such a way that you cannot fire a women at all if she get's pregnant or is on (payed) maternity leave. As an employer you have to hold her position ready for her until she returns to the job 3 years (!) later or get's pregnant, again. I see that this law is well meant, but because of it employers will hesitate to give any job to women at all.

Yes maternity leave laws are so unfair because they penalize women, even those who never want kids, by causing all women to be seen as a liability. The ultimate solution would be to enforce a mandatory paid leave for DADS as well when they have a kid. That would even the playing field. 

Women would still be seen as a risk since they are usually the ones to stay home with the kid when he gets sick at school, leave early for the piano recital, etc. Or just up and quit the minute they get pregnant. But it would at least be an improvement over the way things are now. 

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1 hour ago, eveandadam said:

Thank you so much for your comment. Yes it is quite extreme in Germany, compared to other western, first-world countries. In East Germany it is still a little better than in the rest of the country, but I found it most extrem in Bavaria, where I live now. I'm starting to regret having studied engineering instead of something more "girly" like languages, education, administration or even design.

I'm pretty amazed at how it doesn't seem to be such a problem in the U.S. (or am I wrong?). There are more extrem views in the U.S. for different lifestyles, e.g. the Duggars, but overall and on average I think the U.S. actually is a lot less sexist than Germany. The laws are also in such a way that you cannot fire a women at all if she get's pregnant or is on (payed) maternity leave. As an employer you have to hold her position ready for her until she returns to the job 3 years (!) later or get's pregnant, again. I see that this law is well meant, but because of it employers will hesitate to give any job to women at all.

My partner is German and I lived in (former East) Germany for several years. It's really interesting to me how American and German sexism are so different.  The lack of American sexism was so amazing and freeing to me -- I wasn't subject to constant street harassment, I wasn't expected to be beautiful and sexually pleasing/available to men constantly, I felt like I was allowed to have a full range of human feelings and not just have to constantly smile and emote positivity the way American women are expected to do. In dating German men I found them much more respectful and they expected me to be frank about what I wanted instead of having this idea that women should play games and act coquettish. 

I do think that where sexism really has a huge hold in Germany (even more than the US) is that women should be primarily mothers and to some extent housewives. This didn't affect me as much since I don't have children and didn't have to look for a job there, but I was definitely aware that there were a lot fewer women in high-level positions and that German life is still kind of set up with the expectation that someone will be home/not working a lot of the time (just how packages are delivered drove me crazy).  

So maybe it's more of a maternal-oriented sexism in Germany and less of a sex-oriented sexism? Germany has so many wonderful institutions that support parenthood that we don't have in the US (affordable medical care, Kindergeld, affordable child care, parental leave) and that makes me want to live in Germany if I ever do have children, but maybe the very fact that those things exist has kept a certain kind of 'benevolent sexism' going there more than in the US. 

 

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5 minutes ago, lumpentheologie said:

 

So maybe it's more of a maternal-oriented sexism in Germany and less of a sex-oriented sexism? Germany has so many wonderful institutions that support parenthood that we don't have in the US (affordable medical care, Kindergeld, affordable child care, parental leave) and that makes me want to live in Germany if I ever do have children, but maybe the very fact that those things exist has kept a certain kind of 'benevolent sexism' going there more than in the US. 

 

It's much easier to find a place to put your baby/toddler/small child in daycare than it is in the rest of Germany. There is a serious shortage of daycare available outside of East Germany. I was born and partially raised in East Germany so the cultureal difference of what is expectred from women is extreme between, say East and Bavaria for example. I fear you may only have seen the not so sexist side of Germany?

But you are definately right in that there is less obvious street harassment and less emphasis put on smiling and looks in general.

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3 minutes ago, eveandadam said:

It's much easier to find a place to put your baby/toddler/small child in daycare than it is in the rest of Germany. There is a serious shortage of daycare available outside of East Germany. I was born and partially raised in East Germany so the cultureal difference of what is expectred from women is extreme between, say East and Bavaria for example. I fear you may only have seen the not so sexist side of Germany?

But you are definately right in that there is less obvious street harassment and less emphasis put on smiling and looks in general.

My partner is from Bavaria and I've spent some time there with him and his family -- you're right, it's definitely a different world.  They're always hounding us to get married and have babies -- it's as bad as the US in that regard.  

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I don't think you can say that one country is more or lesss sexist than the other - but yes, they're different kinds of sexism, so to speak.

But honey, it does get better. I also looked for a full-time job for close to a year after I finished my master's degree (I did have a part-time job, so that helped). And yes, it is a sexism thing because many employers are afraid that you'll have kids soon and be a liability for the company. That fucking sucks, and it just shows how much feminism is still needed today! But there are also really good employers out there. My current employer is amazing and actually child-friendly. They wouldn't dream of not hiring women because they might have kids. They are actually happy for us when one of us gets pregnant, even though it means that we're out for a while. They do everything they can to accommodate us. I'm 100% sure you'll find your ideal fit and you'll be so glad you don't work in a sexist shithole when you do. Don't give up, @eveandadam! :my_heart:

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It's definitely a regional thing in the US as well. I've had people bugging me for years about marriage and babies- but only my relatives from the Bible Belt. I live in the northeast, and most people in my circle get married in their mid to late twenties, and don't start having kids until their late twenties and early thirties. When I was twenty-one, my uncle from Virginia asked when I was getting married. He said, "Aunt (his wife) was already married four years when she was your age!" I didn't quite know how to react to that. They also got married in the 1970s Virginia, and he was in the army. It's a bit of a different situation :pb_lol:

It's a common phenomenon that people in more urban areas generally marry later and people in more rural areas marry earlier. That's not to say that one way is better than the other, and of course, there are tons of exceptions. So while I look at the Duggar girls and think, "Wow, that's awfully young to get married," the average age of first marriage in Arkansas is 24, the youngest in the country (along with Utah and Oklahoma). They're not too far off that.

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1 hour ago, VeganCupcake said:

Yes maternity leave laws are so unfair because they penalize women, even those who never want kids, by causing all women to be seen as a liability. The ultimate solution would be to enforce a mandatory paid leave for DADS as well when they have a kid. That would even the playing field. 

Women would still be seen as a risk since they are usually the ones to stay home with the kid when he gets sick at school, leave early for the piano recital, etc. Or just up and quit the minute they get pregnant. But it would at least be an improvement over the way things are now. 

The ultimate solution should be that companies don't pay fo maternity leave - governments subsidizes lost revenues, prenatal healthcare, maternity leave, early education etc. As a society we should be encouraging families to take care of kids and not punishing companies or parents. 

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22 hours ago, LogansMama said:

Jeez, why does David Waller feel the need to be upfront in every freaking scene?!

Because he's the FABULOUS David Waller!!! He's FABULOUS!

14 hours ago, AlternativeVoice said:

I only have 2 kids, one is 3 months and I'm already screwing the names up 

Why did Jill even say anything ? She just repeated everything he said. Where has Jill gone?

 Jill has become "one" with her headship--husband. Like the Dowager Countess on Downton said once, "her husband will tell her her opinions" [paraphrased]. She is not supposed to think for herself. She is to adore her husband and listen with rapt, eager attention when he speaks. She must never contradict him--especially in public. She is to support him and accept his views as the Gospel truth. UGH Welcome to 1843

11 hours ago, Hokey Pokey said:

What an incredibly bizarre thing to display

More Pinterest-y wedding cute-crap

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This is a really interesting discussion. As an American, I've always thought of Germany as really progressive and one of the least sexist western countries. But granted, I've never actually been there...

Does the German government or private businesses have any quota type systems in hiring, or even an EEO Commission? I work as a contractor for the U.S. government in a very male-dominated field. We are always looking for more female inspectors/engineers (as well as POC) and are always thrilled when we find one who specializes in what we do and wants to work with us.

Since we're contractors we aren't subject to the same Federal hiring rules, but things sometimes just don't look great when a team is made up exclusively of white middle-aged men. 

@eveandadam keep your head up, and know that a trilingual female engineer would be snatched up around these parts! (But you'd have to work in a building with a big ol' picture of Trump looking at you every day...

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16 hours ago, SamiKatz said:

Didn't Jim Bob give all of their birthdates on a 19 Kids episode once?

Or am just imagining that?

 

For as big of a douche as JB is, he does genuinely love his kids, he gets very sappy and emotional at the girls weddings. I'm still not sure if Michelle is drugged out of her mind or just out of her mind, most of the time she just looks like a badly dressed Stepford wife. 

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12 hours ago, feministxtian said:

When I was married to the X and we had the 5 kids, I'd go down the line "AmandaTheresaJoshuaSarahDanielLicoriceBilboJokerTiddlesShadow" 5 kids, 3 dogs, 2 cats...I spent a LOT of time confused. Finally I'd just point at whichever child I was planning to fuss at and just yell "YOU"!!!!

I know Bill Cosby is now persona non grata, but some of his stuff is so engrained from listening to his records (yes, LPs) over and over again growing up. One of his quotes that still gets said around here because it is so real (to pets, now that the children are all grown) is "You! What's your name?! Don't lie to me, because you live here, and I'll find out who you are..."

When I was little, we lived in a house with a family room in the basement. When a child was wanted, a parent would stand at the top of the stairs and yell all the kids' names plus the dog's name. A! B! C! D! E! F! (dog)! Then when kids would crowd around at the base of the stairs, the parent would either remember the name they wanted or point to the kid. One of my brothers really got his nose out of joint one day when the parent yelling put his name after the dog's... 

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2 minutes ago, refugee said:

One of his quotes that still gets said around here because it is so real (to pets, now that the children are all grown) is "You! What's your name?! Don't lie to me, because you live here, and I'll find out who you are..."

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! YES! I used that line a LOT over the years...

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More Pinterest-y wedding cute-crap

"Becoming one with the headship..." that crap is why I was a really bad Christian wife. The fact that anyone expected me to act that way was beyond comprehension and also why I left!!

"Becoming one with the headship..." that crap is why I was a really bad Christian wife. The fact that anyone expected me to act that way was beyond comprehension and also why I left!!

I was also trying to just quote the Jill part... not the Pinterest part!
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I live in southern Tennessee and most of my friends from high school have had kids or married.  My family would love for me to get married and have children but they don't pressure me about it.  They'd rather I'd be a happy productive member of society

Regarding the wedding it's still my favorite.  Her dress and hair/makeup were gorgeous.  Michelle's dress was actually quite nice.  It was nice seeing JB get emotional, not sure if really seen Michelle get that way.  I also like John David, he's pretty funny in a shy kind of way

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1 hour ago, refugee said:

I know Bill Cosby is now persona non grata, but some of his stuff is so engrained from listening to his records (yes, LPs) over and over again growing up. One of his quotes that still gets said around here because it is so real (to pets, now that the children are all grown) is "You! What's your name?! Don't lie to me, because you live here, and I'll find out who you are..."

When I was little, we lived in a house with a family room in the basement. When a child was wanted, a parent would stand at the top of the stairs and yell all the kids' names plus the dog's name. A! B! C! D! E! F! (dog)! Then when kids would crowd around at the base of the stairs, the parent would either remember the name they wanted or point to the kid. One of my brothers really got his nose out of joint one day when the parent yelling put his name after the dog's... 

I call my daughter by my sisters name all the time so does our mom. There are 3 of us and 2 of us have 2 kids and 1 has 1. mom has 3 kids 3 in laws and 5 grand kids my dad has 3 kids 3 step-kids 6 in laws and 6 grand kids. Mass confusion everywhere, my siblings and are are still a variation of PamMikeKiristi, my brother came up with the idea of numbering the grandkids but mom still messes that up. My kids were/are Large child and small child it works for my kids as my son (who is older)is and always was a head taller than his sister. I have 3 cats and a dog we've had 6 cats over our 20 years together I've never mixed up kids and animals but I do mix up the animal names.  When we are all together and we want someone it is a name scramble that usually ends with "You, what ever the hell your name is come here". 

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2 hours ago, Snarkle Motion said:

The ultimate solution should be that companies don't pay fo maternity leave - governments subsidizes lost revenues, prenatal healthcare, maternity leave, early education etc. As a society we should be encouraging families to take care of kids and not punishing companies or parents. 

I'm not sure how it works in Germany, but in Canada the government does pay for maternity leave. The problem is that if you go on leave the company has to try and find someone to come in and cover your leave. Not many people who actually have the skills required for the job want to work one year contracts, especially when you start talking about jobs higher up the chain.

I'm struggling with this right now, husband and I want to start TTC, but I work in a very specialized job and I have no idea how they will cover my leave. I'm trying to train a couple of guys, but it's a struggle. It took me 10 years to learn my job, and I didn't start from scratch. I like my current company and don't want to come back to a huge disaster when I get back from leave, so I'm trying to get all my ducks in a row now.

it's so much easier for companies to just hire men and not have to worry about it, especially in a very male dominated industry like the one I work in. They're not supposed to discriminate based on gender but it happens all the time. I've been straight up told by a manager that they were promoting a man over me because I'd recently gotten married and they'd just be wasting any money they spent training me because I'd be having babies soon anyway. I'm not sure what the solution is. In Canada the man can take parental leave instead of the woman, but it happens so rarely that it doesn't change anything.

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1 hour ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

For as big of a douche as JB is, he does genuinely love his kids, he gets very sappy and emotional at the girls weddings. I'm still not sure if Michelle is drugged out of her mind or just out of her mind, most of the time she just looks like a badly dressed Stepford wife. 

I truly felt this way after watching his moment with Jinger too. And I do believe he genuinely loves his daughters immensely.

But not as much as he loves his image, brand, and (TLC) $$$. To truly love his daughters, he would have gotten them the help they deserved years before the media found out anything improper happened.

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11 minutes ago, LuckyShot said:

I'm not sure what the solution is. In Canada the man take parental leave instead of the woman, but it happens so rarely that it doesn't change anything.

So true. This issue is insanely frustrating. Esp for someone like me who NEVER wants a kid. And in the event I did have one, I would take the least time off possible, and get a nanny to take care of the baby. 

I wish more companies encouraged bringing newborns along to work. It's not feasible for all jobs, but newborns are actually not very disruptive, and sleep most of the time. It would be cool to see moms AND DADS walking around the office with a baby carrier. 

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30 minutes ago, VeganCupcake said:

So true. This issue is insanely frustrating. Esp for someone like me who NEVER wants a kid. And in the event I did have one, I would take the least time off possible, and get a nanny to take care of the baby. 

That's nice, if you can afford a nanny. Most people don't have that luxury. Especially low income and/or single mothers.

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3 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

That's nice, if you can afford a nanny. Most people don't have that luxury. Especially low income and/or single mothers.

Well regardless of income you will have to pay for childcare until the baby is school age if you continue working. 

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