The Botkinettes have surfaced and they're giving relationship advice again!

[Howl]

But isn't she supposed to be an industrious Proverbs woman MLM, top of the pyramid with downline as far as the eye can see, top seller, wildcatting a gusher of YL Oils, successfully blogging up a storm, pumping out godly spawn, while not upsetting the apple cart of husbands ego?  

IMHO, the Botkinettis should go to bullet-pointed documents in downloadable pdf format.  It wouldn't be hard to summarize all of their craptastic thinking in a condensed format.  SRSLY, they are almost as bad as Doug Wilson.  Just SAY it already. 

[Lisafer]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

Now that's a thought.  Do you mean nut in the mental health or gonadular sense and can one glean them like pecans?  Inquiring mind ...

That's what I was wondering, too! Take note, a manly stance makes it easier to glean patriarchal nuts...

[Mrs. Bean]

4 hours ago, Marian the Librarian said:

Recipe for a Little Princess That Will Never Know the Workplace Sundae:

Two scoops of ice cream, preferably Keep Sweet flavor. Top with subservience sauce, no-college whipped cream, and all the patriarchal nuts you can find. Serve, presented attractively on a SOTDRT diploma.

 

 

Reigan Moore got married ( to a guy that looks like her brother, not kidding), had a baby, and is not selling for Amway. So does her daddy Pastor Moore.

What’s with the fundies and MLMs? 

[Howl]

1 hour ago, Mrs. Bean said:

What’s with the fundies and MLMs? 

They're not job-type people. 

[CyborgKin]

Since this thread is a bit more alive / here's the second part of part five:

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Sow This, Not That

So here are some things we have to be sure we’re not sowing to in order to have the kind of strength that handling bad men requires. If we can put these to death, we’ll be the last kind of women an Ephesians 4 man will want to mess with.

Today on "We're not victim blaming but..."
We're not saying that women who are abused deserve it or earned it, but they didn't put in the work to become the right kind of women that men know they're not allowed to harm.

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Vanity – the pride that makes us find our worth in how much men notice us, admire us, and want us. When men’s affirmation of us becomes something we’re dependent on, something we use to feed our egos and puff us up, something we’ll strive for at all costs (even the cost of sinning), we’re in trouble already. 

Remember when we were talking about abuse and assault and such?  Cos we sure don't.

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By the way – though we pointed out in the first article that a man’s choice to commit the sin of lust is his own responsibility, we do need to acknowledge that doing anything calculated to provoke their lust is our own sin of lust (the lust to be lusted after), and our own kind of being predatory.

We're not victim blaming but women who dress or act such that men notice them are being predatory.

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The little things we do (we know what they are) to look or act in just such a way to draw men to us, need to be replaced with actions that will push them towards their Savior, instead. 

We're not victim blaming but women are responsible for either drawing men in, or else pushing them to Jesus.  Your interactions with men will either help them be [more] Christian or else make them want to abuse you.  Your choice!

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Unbiblical neediness, or emotional idolatry – having needs that we feel cannot be or are not being met by God – whether for companionship, love, affection, security, comfort, or a sense of worth – that we depend on other sources to meet. If we feel like we would die without attention/a boyfriend/a particular guy, and attaining that is the main thing that drives us, we are putting our faith in an idol and not God (Ex. 20:1-8). Every decision we make about how we present ourselves, where we go, what activities we take up, and who we decide to spend time with, can be like little sacrifices we make to this idol with the hope of earning its favor and in dread of not getting it.

We're not victim blaming but if you make any decision with too much emotional neediness, bad things could happen to you.

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This will probably involve an overhaul of the minute-by-minute choices we make throughout the day: to either spend 30 minutes shopping for a particular clothing item we hope will impress a certain someone, or to spend it engaged in the good works of (invisible) service that we know will please the Lord; to listen to a song that stirs up our inner romantic neediness, or to listen to a sermon; to spend an hour texting a particular person, or to spend that hour reading the Word and communing with Christ. 

Don't live in fear, but completely rethink every single individual choice you make so you don't attract predators.

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Lack of steadfastness – the inability to persevere. ... The recent flood of scandals, including in the Christian community, includes far too many examples of women essentially saying, “Oh, I did rebuff his advances – every time we went out! I was never OK with the things he was pressuring me into doing, and I would tell him so every time it happened.” As a critically-injured young woman said when asked by her doctor why she didn’t just leave her abusive boyfriend: “Oh, but I have, Doctor – dozens of times!”

We're not blaming them, of course.  But you really need more perseverence than they had, or else this will be you.

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So let’s practice sticking to our resolves (even the little ones) whenever temptation is calling to let them go. 

Because when your boss or coworker or pastor or guy who talked your parents into letting him court you is repeatedly harassing your or grooming you, the main consideration is temptation.

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Fear – the fear of loss, of retribution, of shame, of the unknown; of making a scene, of taking a risk; of rational things, of irrational things. It doesn’t make a difference what it is: Once we fix our fear on something other than God, we are bound and gagged.

You'll be able to cry out or run away if you stop being afraid.

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We’ll need to practice keeping these truths at the forefront of our minds when we’re around other people, and we’ll need to practice speaking up and taking a stand for these truths when it’s scary and makes us unpopular. The more we do this, the more the focus of our fear will be shifted from people to God, and we’ll develop a reputation for being the kind of girl that would get an abuser in deep trouble.

Because your potential abusers are godly God-fearing men who know that messing with you is messing with God.  They're definitely not men who act godly but have no real fear of God and are actually think of themselves as gods and are in high positions in the church/homeschool system just to get power and respectability while not really believing anything they preach or teach.  (BTW can we refer to you a cinematographer?)

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Selfish ambition – wanting the perks (you name it – favorite-status, admiration, promotion, money, fame, popularity) that would come with being on this person’s good side. ... To consider the souls of the young men around us (including their focus and their purity) more important than the ego boost we could get from them.

We're not victim blaming but stop distracting men and stealing their purity, you're so selfish.

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Instability of soul – 2 Pet. 2:14 says that men who have “eyes full of adultery” “entice unstable souls.” The word “unstable” means “unfixed,” “vacillating,” “unsteady.” An unstable girl is one who is not solidly, unshakeably rooted in what God says – she can be drawn or persuaded or manipulated by some other voice telling her “I’m only doing this because I love you so much…” “Did God say it’s a sin to do X? Don’t be such a legalist!” “It’s actually your fault I did Y, because you tempted me…” “If you tell anyone, my life will be ruined, and you’ll have to live with that!”

You wouldn't be a target of grooming if you weren't unstable.  Also remember all the times we've told you not to tempt men?  Well, men will try to manipulate you by saying you tempted them.  Don't believe them!  But do believe us when we say not to tempt men.

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God gives us the rock-solid foundation of His Word that we can use to tie down our wandering, unsettled beliefs. Our vacillating standards can be firm. Our limp convictions can be bolstered.

 

Yes, tell men about the rock-solid foundation, tied-down beliefs, firm standards, and bolstered limp convictions, and that'll keep you safe.

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Spiritual laxness – when we identify as the Lord’s servants, and yet are not actively seeking out our Master’s will and striving to understand what He wants us to do.

Make sure men see you as servants seeking our your master's will.

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And along the way, we should expect to face situations where no one is telling us exactly what to do with our talent, or exactly when the Bridegroom will come.

You won't always have your father, your husband, or your pastor telling you what to do!  Sometimes you'll have to make your own choices.  (If this ever happens to us, we'll write you a book about it.)

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Now, that said, we can’t underplay how common real spiritual bondage and false teaching are, and how much they can confuse us, blind us, bind us, and betray us into the hands of those who would even abuse us physically. Some of us will have a longer road ahead of us in learning to interpret Scripture accurately, unraveling bad interpretations and hermeneutics woven into our thinking since childhood. 

Are we admitting there's a systematic culture of grooming in the church?  Or are we saying you'd better have the right interpretation of scripture if you don't want to be physically abused?  We'll leave figuring that out as an exercise.

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Hope for Holiness

And there are none of us so blighted with sins, ungodly dependencies, and apathy that God’s grace can’t pour into us new love, new zeal, new faith, new strength, new life. How many of us felt burdened or discouraged by the list of sins above? The good news – to be precise, the Good News – is that “the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.” (Tit. 2:11-14)
...
It’s only the Holy Spirit Who can give us the strength to do these things – we cannot do them on our own strength – but how much are we claiming His daily help in doing them? If the power to do these things is lacking, we need to ask the Lord for more. If the desire to do these things is lacking, we need to ask the Lord for more. If our faith that He can answer is lacking… we just need to ask Him for more! (Mark 9:24) We need to stop despairing over our own inability to make progress on these things, and cast ourselves utterly on the power of His Spirit to help us. He promises He will not fail us.

 

(okay I don't have any snark for this)

Only one more chapter!  Though I might split it up again.

[EmiGirl]

Maybe women in biblical days didn't report rape because she'd then have to marry her rapist. Therefore, no bible women reporting rape. 

[Lisafer]

By giving women impossibly perfectionistic standards, the Botkins have made sure that every woman who follows their teachings will blame herself if she is assaulted. "Maybe I gave him a flirty look. Maybe when I greeted him before church, my tone was too seductive. Maybe there was lust in my  heart, and he was responding to that lust." In their world, no woman could possibly be guilt-free. It's so sad.

[Howl]

16 hours ago, EmiGirl said:

Maybe women in biblical days didn't report rape because she'd then have to marry her rapist. Therefore, no bible women reporting rape. 

Or she could be cast out or stoned to death.  Lots of reasons to not report rape.  

[hisboyelroy]

Oh boy, these ladies need therapy. I sincerely hope nobody in a vulnerable position or who has recently been victimized reads their trash. 

[Columbia]

2 hours ago, hisboyelroy said:

Oh boy, these ladies need therapy. I sincerely hope nobody in a vulnerable position or who has recently been victimized reads their trash. 

On one of their Facebook pages they said that they had four friends who were “victims of criminal sexual abuse” help edit their posts. I’m sure one of those was not Lourdes.

I can’t imagine how badly you must have (or not have) processed your own trauma to look at something like this and decide it was true and good. 

[milkteeth]

On 5/19/2018 at 5:39 PM, Lisafer said:

By giving women impossibly perfectionistic standards, the Botkins have made sure that every woman who follows their teachings will blame herself if she is assaulted. "Maybe I gave him a flirty look. Maybe when I greeted him before church, my tone was too seductive. Maybe there was lust in my  heart, and he was responding to that lust." In their world, no woman could possibly be guilt-free. It's so sad.

Whether they are doing it knowingly or not this is exactly what they (and others like them) want to have happen. A victim who blames herself is much less likely to report her abuse. A victim who blames herself is much less likely to warn others. A victim who blames herself isn't a threat to their system of power and will instead direct her rage towards herself rather than those who truly deserve it. 

 

[CyborgKin]

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It’s intimidating to try to tackle even one dimension of a topic as vast and multi-faceted as resisting abuse. As we all arm ourselves to walk through our still-very-present culture of harassment and exploitation, there are countless things we’ll need to study outside the scope of what this series has touched on: practical issues like how to recognize a predator’s tactics, or how to build our own self-defense strategies and arsenals; legal issues like how and when and to whom to report; spiritual issues regarding things like recovery, true forgiveness, and identity; ecclesiastical issues like what to do when your church won’t help.

Maybe we'll write a book about it?  Otherwise, good luck, but you're on your own now.

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One of the main things that abusers try to convince women of is this: You are nothing; you are not better than this; no one will ever care that this has happened to you; no one will ever listen to you; this is who you are now; you have no chance of success in resisting or reporting; don’t even try. You’re not worth fighting for.

Or our favourite, "Women exist to server the visions of men as their helpers, and their goals are secondary to those of their fathers, brothers, and husbands."

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On the other side, feminist voices tell us: If you feel that what he did was not consensual, then it was wrong, and if you feel that it would be more empowering to you to resist or report, then go ahead… but it really all comes down to what you personally want right now, and no one should expect you as a woman to have to do something you don’t want to do. This is only worth fighting if you feel like it.

We're experts on what feminists say, so we know that even when they're empowering women regarding the same issue that we claim to be empowering women on, they're still wrong.

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Too many Christian voices tell us: You just need to forgive and turn the other cheek; bringing consequences for sin isn’t loving and isn’t forgiveness; it will really damage the reputation of Christ to have things like this brought to light in the Christian community; you’re a sinner too, so you have no right to point a finger at him. It’s not Christian to fight back.

And then we look at our tortuous legal system and get the message: This battle is going to cost you everything and you’re not going to win. It’s not worth it to fight back.

 

But we know better than ALL those people.  We're the ones who really care about women so only the people who agree with us are right.

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Rachel chose to see the countless barriers against her cause – the power imbalance between her and her abuser, the vast community protecting him, her past experience of being shut down, the personal costs of speaking up, the pain of having to re-live the trauma, the opposition from unbelievers and Christians alike at every step of the way – as “a reminder: These were the very cultural dynamics that had allowed Larry Nassar to remain in power. I knew that the farthest I could run from my abuser, and the people that let him prey on children for decades, was to choose the opposite of what that man, and his enablers, had become. To choose to find and speak the truth, no matter what it cost.”

By quoting her we can make people think we know what we're talking about and have the slightest shred of authority regarding this issue.  And our readers will assume we would have supported all of her decisions and actions if we'd been in a position to offer support.  They might even think we have supported women in similar situations, without us having to claim such experience.

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Truth: Every victim is precious in God’s sight – before and after the crime. The sanctity of a body and soul created in God’s image is reason enough in itself to fight against harm to that body and soul – during and after the crime, whether the victim is ourselves or someone else.
Truth: Our worth and virtue are not defined or determined by the sins others commit against us.
Truth: We are not responsible for the sins others choose to commit.
Truth: There is nothing we can do to “ask for” or “deserve” someone sinning against us.
Truth: God’s Word defines what is right and wrong for us and others to do. No one has the prerogative to decide this for him (or her) self.
Truth: God calls men and women equally to the standard of doing the right thing when it’s hard, and knows that they’re both equally capable of it.
Truth: God commands that His people do justice and love mercy. Justice is part of His loving character and part of how He wants wrong to be resolved. Forgiveness alone is not always the answer.
Truth: Bad men are not invincible. God is not lying when He says that a man’s sins will find him out (and we have all seen proof that that is true.)
Truth: Whether we’re guaranteed to win is not what makes a battle worth fighting. The rightness of the cause is what makes the battle worth fighting.

See, we are not condemning or blaming the victims in any way, and we believe in the equality of men and women!!!11!

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If we’ve made mistakes – large, small, we’ve all made them – we shouldn’t see that as something that gives us less to fight for now. Our purity is not worth less if we’ve done things we now wish we hadn’t. And if we’ve suffered outright crimes that we weren’t able to successfully resist, that doesn’t in any way detract from our innocence in the Lord’s eyes. We are not damaged goods. And we have no less to fight for.

For example, we've... watched Tangled?

We're being very honest about other people's mistakes and shortcomings, but we're staying silent or nonspecific about ourselves personally because... we don't want to make this about us?  We just exist as trustworthy narrators telling you how to world works, so we don't need to get into personal stuff because you might remember to doubt us or question whether we're being consistent with everything we've said or supported in the past.

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The concept of purity that says “If you’re a lollipop that’s already been licked, what do you have left to protect?” is completely antithetical to what God says about purity. Purity is not an innate, inborn quality that another person can steal or sully. It’s also not something we have finite amounts of that can be all used up.

Also you can't give away pieces of your heart.

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Purity is something Christ works in our naturally impure hearts, as He takes us through His refining forge of tests and trials (James 1:2-4, James 1:12-15, 1 Pet. 1:6-7). As we deal with men (of any kind), we need to be not so much focused on protecting some kind of natural “purity” we are assumed to have been born with, as on the attaining of purity through faithfulness in those very messy situations as Christ leads us through them.

In Ephesians 5, we see that even Jesus’ own Bride was not naturally pure. She had to be sanctified and cleansed “by the washing of water with the word” (Eph. 5:26) before she was ready to be presented before her Groom. In King David, we see a heart that was already “after God’s own heart,” but which still called out, “Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me” (Psa. 51:10) – “Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.” (Psa. 51:7)

 

See, we do remember Jesus!

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When we hear the phrase “a virtuous woman,” as we looked at in Part 4, many of us think God is describing a woman who’s pious, chaste, and unspotted. However, the Hebrew word for “virtuous” that God chose to describe His ideal woman in Proverbs 31 means something more like valorous, strong, powerful, and mighty in battle. The woman’s “virtue” has nothing to do with her past – it has everything to do with what she’s fighting for now.

Which is why women with impure pasts are never shunned by the church.  And why the men in our family don't need to find absolutely innocent women to marry.  And since this also applies to men, it's why we don't need to wait for Mister Perfect to find and marry us.

(When we say "many of us" we of course don't mean us personally because we'd never get something so important wrong.)

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On our own, no amount of natural power, beauty, intelligence, or confidence can give us the strength to resist evil and fight for righteousness. Feminist mantras can’t give us this. Women’s marches can’t give us this. Even the #MeToo movement and the world’s sympathetic ear can’t give us this. Only God can give us this.

Only God can help you but please still buy our stuff.

 

12 hours ago, milkteeth said:

Whether they are doing it knowingly or not this is exactly what they (and others like them) want to have happen. A victim who blames herself is much less likely to report her abuse. A victim who blames herself is much less likely to warn others. A victim who blames herself isn't a threat to their system of power and will instead direct her rage towards herself rather than those who truly deserve it. 

They appear to be claiming otherwise so I think they're just not aware that they'd have this effect.  Which means they're propagating something they think they're fighting against, which is just sad.  It's tragic that people can mess up their kids like this.

[Sobeknofret]

The Botkins were always kind of my pet fundies, but now more in an amused trainwreck sort of way. Amending one's mistakes is a noble trait, but double speak and backpeddling are not, ladies.

[Hane]

@CyborgKin , bravissima for wading through all this!

Ah, the Botkinettes. They’re less qualified to spew forth relationship advice than I am, with two failed marriages behind me. Their lack of self-awareness is staggering.

[CyborgKin]

Oh good, this is happening: http://whencowsandkidscollide.blogspot.com.au/2018/05/spiritual-self-defense-part-one.html

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

55 minutes ago, CyborgKin said:

Oh good, this is happening: http://whencowsandkidscollide.blogspot.com.au/2018/05/spiritual-self-defense-part-one.html

Oh! You have a fellow reader and recap-er. 

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Now, up until last week, I thought moving to a web-based discussion would free me from the Botkin Sisters because they never, ever update their website.   Except... they did update their website with a six-part digression on #Metoo that makes me deeply sad because they've grown so little since their teenage years.  It's pretty much a re-hash of "Good Girls and Problem Guys" - which was a re-hash of "It's Not That Complicated" - with a rare few changes in thinking.

I don't have time to read hers right now, but I'll bookmark it for later. Is she funny, like you? 

[hoipolloi]

1 hour ago, CyborgKin said:

Oh good, this is happening: http://whencowsandkidscollide.blogspot.com.au/2018/05/spiritual-self-defense-part-one.html

Wow. Wasn't aware of this blogger - thank you! 

/Goes off to read/ 

[smittykins]

I love When Cows And Kids Collide(especially the Wisdom Booklet recaps).

[grantedgrant]

1 hour ago, smittykins said:

I love When Cows And Kids Collide(especially the Wisdom Booklet recaps).

Yes! And her critique of Stevehova's ideas about raising kids (especially debt free sons).

[CyborgKin]

16 hours ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

Oh! You have a fellow reader and recap-er. 

I don't have time to read hers right now, but I'll bookmark it for later. Is she funny, like you? 

She's generally more serious and in depth and less funny-snarky, but can be funny particularly when pointing out the absurdities of the Maxwells.

[Howl]

I'm happy to have found her blog; I bookmarked it right away. 

[Palimpsest]

14 hours ago, CyborgKin said:

She's generally more serious and in depth and less funny-snarky, but can be funny particularly when pointing out the absurdities of the Maxwells.

Thank you so much! I've been trying to remember the name of that blog for ages.  She's the one that writes the devastating reviews of Maxwell books.  She also wrote a brilliant analysis of why John's irrigation business was bound to fail. 

[CyborgKin]

From the comments of the latest article: http://whencowsandkidscollide.blogspot.com.au/2018/05/dominion-orientated-femininity-part-five_21.html

 

Well I guess we've got told.

[starfish]

Hi Jenny! Hi Nature Lover! Thanks for stopping by!

And BTW, it's called SNARK and it's beautiful. 

 

[formergothardite]

Have fun using us to get all the fine details of the families you are interested in! Glad we can be of help. While you are reading here maybe you will figure out what snark is.