Jinger and Jeremy - Social Media Silence

[singsingsing]

2 minutes ago, BlessaYourHeart said:

Northern Ireland and Scotland have their fair share on home grown fundies called Free Presbyterians - speaking from experience of living with them in a uni flat here in Northern Ireland - they are scarily right-wing hard line. Women wear skirts and hats to church. No trousers or uncovered heads! They also have strict modesty standards and have been more and more opening their own faith schools in church grounds. We also have had a huge growth in Seventh Day Adventists all across the U.K. The church near where I live went up almost over night! It was a field on Monday and a church on Wednesday night! 

Conservative right wing presbyterians are very common where I live in NI but hide themselves well. It's only when you get talking to one that you realise that they are there. Thankfully, much to his mothers distaste, my other half is more liberal Presbyterian! He had no problem with me being on BC, only had a problem when I went off it  (the pill just did not agree with my body!) 

many fundies here end up marrying people they've grown up with in the church. 

This is a really interesting topic to me, and I want to do more reading on it, but now I can only think about Eddie Izzard describing different Christian denominations, including the Free Presbyterians and the 'Locked Up Presbyterians': 

 

[Lurky]

23 hours ago, mizandry said:

And then it gets worse. Like, plummets. He carries on this subject by using the fucking Keswani family as an example of poor discipline, because their daughter is transgender. I'm so furious I'm trying to hold back on my typical storm of expletives because I'll just go off. Devina is SIX YEARS OLD, and he's going after her and her parents, and blaming her gender on not being beaten enough, because her experience of her gender is just a sign of her "unruliness" in his know-it-all mind.

I have never understood how people have tried to claim Jeremy isn't Fundy, when all the evidence was up on his church's website for all to see, and there's stuff like this in pretty much every sermon.  I know some people have excused the gap conversion stuff with "it's only homophobia, that's pretty common", but this is the kind of thing he's saying publicly!  And then he chose a Duggar girl to marry!!!

Ugh.  it's disgusting, and I really hope he and Jinger don't have kids, because I'd hate to think of them being raised by Jeremy and home-schooled by Jinger.  And before anyone says "but he went to university, he might want his kids to", pretty much all the first-generation parents went to university or college, and chose to deny their children the chances they really enjoyed. 

_______________________

@singsingsing Re British fundies, my partner got embroiled with a Fundy sect as a teen.  She went to a very Fundy Vineyard church (I know some people say not all Vineyard are Fundies, but hers was) and had the full laying-on-hands-to-cast-out-the gay experience, which was shitty, as you can imagine.   It was a small town, there wasn't much to do, so she was all youth group-y - and then at uni was friends with the Goth-Fundy group, who lived in a boys' house and a girls' house, and (allegedly) chaste-dated each other, and would periodically cast out members for not being Christian enough. 

She went to a load of big youth events, and played me some tapes of sermons - some really manipulative bullshit about how life made people sinful - lots of US-TV-preacher-style stuff.  The best-worst part was when it came time to lay on hands for different kinds of people, and the preacher, in this big tent, was a bit surprised that the guys weren't coming forward to lay hands on women who'd been sexually abused. 

I find it all pretty fascinating, as it's so far outside my experiences, especially the mixing of goth and Fundy cultures, and the massive hypocrisy of youth groups set up around judging each other, while hypocritically doing the same/worse.   Plus the whole speaking in tongues/slain in the spirit stuff, which is not common here. 

 

[BlessaYourHeart]

17 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

This is a really interesting topic to me, and I want to do more reading on it, but now I can only think about Eddie Izzard describing different Christian denominations, including the Free Presbyterians and the 'Locked Up Presbyterians': 

 

I've never seen this before and it made me laugh so much. I'm Anglican so the bit about singing was so funny for me as that's how they sing in my church! 

[PennySycamore]

@BlessaYourHeart, we have a Free Presbyterian church here in Greenville, SC started by the Rev. Ian Paisley himself.  He used to come to BJU on a regular basis to preach.  When he was setting up his veterinary practice, my brother was forced to go to one of his sermons in order to buy a used autoclave at a good price.  He was horrified!  I'm not sure he felt the autoclave was worth it.

[Stormy]

45 minutes ago, Lurky said:

(snip)

@singsingsing Re British fundies, my partner got embroiled with a Fundy sect as a teen.  She went to a very Fundy Vineyard church (I know some people say not all Vineyard are Fundies, but hers was) and had the full laying-on-hands-to-cast-out-the gay experience, which was shitty, as you can imagine.   It was a small town, there wasn't much to do, so she was all youth group-y - and then at uni was friends with the Goth-Fundy group, who lived in a boys' house and a girls' house, and (allegedly) chaste-dated each other, and would periodically cast out members for not being Christian enough. 

She went to a load of big youth events, and played me some tapes of sermons - some really manipulative bullshit about how life made people sinful - lots of US-TV-preacher-style stuff.  The best-worst part was when it came time to lay on hands for different kinds of people, and the preacher, in this big tent, was a bit surprised that the guys weren't coming forward to lay hands on women who'd been sexually abused. 

I find it all pretty fascinating, as it's so far outside my experiences, especially the mixing of goth and Fundy cultures, and the massive hypocrisy of youth groups set up around judging each other, while hypocritically doing the same/worse.   Plus the whole speaking in tongues/slain in the spirit stuff, which is not common here. 

 

This prompted me to google "goth Christian" (since I figured "goth fundy" wouldn't register) and I found a treasure in http://www.christiangoth.com/ .

[BlessaYourHeart]

15 minutes ago, PennySycamore said:

@BlessaYourHeart, we have a Free Presbyterian church here in Greenville, SC started by the Rev. Ian Paisley himself.  He used to come to BJU on a regular basis to preach.  When he was setting up his veterinary practice, my brother was forced to go to one of his sermons in order to buy a used autoclave at a good price.  He was horrified!  I'm not sure he felt the autoclave was worth it.

Free Presbyterians - particularly their preachers- are something else. That's all I can say 

 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

5 hours ago, singsingsing said:

This is a really interesting topic to me, and I want to do more reading on it, but now I can only think about Eddie Izzard describing different Christian denominations, including the Free Presbyterians and the 'Locked Up Presbyterians': 

 

Cake or death? Well I'll have the cake. I love Eddie Izzard.

[GotCaughtDancing]

12 hours ago, singsingsing said:

Jeremy. I cannot think of an excuse for Jeremy. He wasn't raised fundie. He wasn't a young, awkward, somewhat lost and vulnerable boy like Derick. Jeremy was a man with a plan. His soccer career fizzled out. No problem, he'll seek validation and power through a career in ministry instead. Now here comes Ben Seewald - oh, he knows this guy, he married a Duggar. Hmmm... wonder if there are any single Duggar girls left? 

My guess with Jeremy is that unlike the other two aimless SILs, he has an actual plan for his future in ministry. Unlike the other two just marrying into the family he came in with goals and is aggressive enough to go after it.  Jinger/duggars help in in many ways by bringing and keeping him in the spotlight and opening doors in the fundy realm and giving him the perfect wife who will give him the family he needs immediately to be taken seriously in his line of work. All about the polished look. I think the duggars were just the first stoop in his goal attaining. 

[Fluffy14]

9 hours ago, Lurky said:

I have never understood how people have tried to claim Jeremy isn't Fundy, when all the evidence was up on his church's website for all to see, and there's stuff like this in pretty much every sermon.  I know some people have excused the gap conversion stuff with "it's only homophobia, that's pretty common", but this is the kind of thing he's saying publicly!  And then he chose a Duggar girl to marry!!!

Ugh.  it's disgusting, and I really hope he and Jinger don't have kids, because I'd hate to think of them being raised by Jeremy and home-schooled by Jinger.  And before anyone says "but he went to university, he might want his kids to", pretty much all the first-generation parents went to university or college, and chose to deny their children the chances they really enjoyed. 

_______________________

@singsingsing Re British fundies, my partner got embroiled with a Fundy sect as a teen.  She went to a very Fundy Vineyard church (I know some people say not all Vineyard are Fundies, but hers was) and had the full laying-on-hands-to-cast-out-the gay experience, which was shitty, as you can imagine.   It was a small town, there wasn't much to do, so she was all youth group-y - and then at uni was friends with the Goth-Fundy group, who lived in a boys' house and a girls' house, and (allegedly) chaste-dated each other, and would periodically cast out members for not being Christian enough. 

She went to a load of big youth events, and played me some tapes of sermons - some really manipulative bullshit about how life made people sinful - lots of US-TV-preacher-style stuff.  The best-worst part was when it came time to lay on hands for different kinds of people, and the preacher, in this big tent, was a bit surprised that the guys weren't coming forward to lay hands on women who'd been sexually abused. 

I find it all pretty fascinating, as it's so far outside my experiences, especially the mixing of goth and Fundy cultures, and the massive hypocrisy of youth groups set up around judging each other, while hypocritically doing the same/worse.   Plus the whole speaking in tongues/slain in the spirit stuff, which is not common here. 

 

I don't know what you consider fundamental Christianity, but I grew up Mennonite which equates to regular baptist.  No weird clothes, etc. Then in my teens and throughout my twenties went to the Vineyard. There was absolutely nothing fundamentalist about the Vineyard movement.  I think from my vantage point there is a complete lack of understanding what fundamentalism is and what it is not.  None of the churches I grew up with or around would be considered anything like what the Duggars preach and practice.  This is in Canada, and there is a huge difference what you see here as a conservative church and what the Duggars look like.   To me there is nothing fundamental in what you described your vineyard experience to be.  I would never on the planet consider vineyard to be fundamental and I am sure no Duggar type would either. I bet they wouldn't have even heard of them.  I see a few more  fundamental families roaming around and contribute that to the homeschooling movement over the last 20  yrs, and for the most part has been individual families.  I have heard of one  church like  this in Calgary, but for the most part  even the most conservative churches I have known or have seen don't come close to what is going on in the states .  I find in general there is confusion because most Protestant churches have the same core beliefs.  And then off shoot  out of those even more refined dogmatic  rules and doctrines taken out of its original context such as the  the type the  Duggars prescribe to.  If you paired them against the average Mennonite church in western Canada, you could check off some core beliefs that would be the same and then the rest would be  have the mennos going WTF  ?  That's crazy. Prime example would be skirts, and BC.  SAHD  would be another.  Education would be another.  From my own experience,  being raised in church,  being familiar with different denominations within Canada. Being apart of the homeschool community on and off for 15  yrs, there is a vast difference in what some on here consider fundamentalism Gothard , ATI, IBLP, Vision Forum etc, and the average  church in Canada.  It's a whole  different ballgame as soon as you cross that border.  And if you match some core beliefs that does not make   The church a  fundamental church. 

 

[Kak]

I don't consider my upbringing to be even fundie lite, but it was very strict Christian. Some of our practices would possibly be considered on a superficial level to be fundie, but life was fairly mainstream in most ways. I went to regular school, university, had boyfriends etc.  

I'm not sure if there is an exact definition of fundie, but my definition lies mainly in the way the children are raised, and in the way they try to impose their beliefs on everyone else. The superficial tells, such as skirts only, or being allowed to wear trousers, or long hair are not really good indicators. Fundie child are indoctrinated and educated (or not) in a way that doesn't allow them to learn to think for themselves or to develop an alternative world view.

I know there are people here who were raised properly fundie, and I would not want to diminish their experience by claiming mine was comparable. I know how hard it was for me, and I can't imagine the strength it takes those raised fundie to break free. 

[Lurky]

3 hours ago, Fluffy14 said:

I don't know what you consider fundamental Christianity, but I grew up Mennonite which equates to regular baptist.  No weird clothes, etc. Then in my teens and throughout my twenties went to the Vineyard. There was absolutely nothing fundamentalist about the Vineyard movement.  I think from my vantage point there is a complete lack of understanding what fundamentalism is and what it is not.  <snip>

I don't think anyone thinks there a There is no "one size fits all" ticksheet of Fundy beliefs. 

But my partner's church explicitly described themselves as Fundamentalist, and Fundy, for short-hand, and while they weren't into homeschooling etc, that's because the UK has a completely different culture, where home-schooling is a very, very rare thing.  As one example, the church gave my partner "pray away the gay therapy" (seriously, no one else in the UK does that outside Fundy churches! It's not a tenet of mainstream Christianity!) and I could give you 100 more examples. 

Of course the USA Fundy movement is it's own beast, and culturally-specific, just as mainstream Christianity is different in every country because of the different cultural background.  It feels a bit like the "the Bates are better than the Duggars" conversations to try to say there couldn't be a Fundy church in the UK, because there absolutely are - and they're not somehow benign and un-harmful because they're not as bad as the craziest USA example.

(I do find it strange that you've unilaterally decided my partner's completely wrong about the church she attended, when you're on a different continent, and don't even know whereabouts in the UK I'm talking about, let alone the individual church.  You'd think I was crazy if I told you "well, YOUR Vineyard church was an outlier, and you're wrong about it", wouldn't you?)

[lomo6]

11 hours ago, GotCaughtDancing said:

My guess with Jeremy is that unlike the other two aimless SILs, he has an actual plan for his future in ministry. Unlike the other two just marrying into the family he came in with goals and is aggressive enough to go after it.  Jinger/duggars help in in many ways by bringing and keeping him in the spotlight and opening doors in the fundy realm and giving him the perfect wife who will give him the family he needs immediately to be taken seriously in his line of work. All about the polished look. I think the duggars were just the first stoop in his goal attaining. 

The funny thing is that Ben is actually in a pretty appropriate place for his age in terms of having some school under his belt and exploring different career options. When I was 21, I was at a four-year college but had no clue what I was going to do after I graduated (and neither did most of my friends). The difference is none of us had two kids and a dependent spouse. 

[singsingsing]

I'm sure Ben and Jessa are living pretty comfortably off their TLC income. Obviously that's not something they're going to want to rely on in the long term, but for now I'm sure they're financially secure. They also consider the show to be part of their ministry. We may think that's b.s., but in their view they're not floundering aimlessly, they're pursuing a career in ministry.

My biggest concern with Ben is that he wants to become a pastor, and nothing I've seen shows me that he's cut out for it in any way at all. He seems to think and consider things a fair bit, so maybe he could go into Christian counselling or something like that. But the guy is not a good speaker. He's not charismatic or articulate at all. I really don't think being a preacher or pastor is a good career goal for him.

[2manyKidzzz]

To me the thing about Bin being a pastor is that he doesn't have any real wisdom. He parrots what he reads. What has he done in life? To me there has to be much more if you are going to guide people spiritually. But, he IS a fundy, so what am I thinking I guess. Sigh. 

[Dugg@rTime]

19 hours ago, Stormy said:

This prompted me to google "goth Christian" (since I figured "goth fundy" wouldn't register) and I found a treasure in http://www.christiangoth.com/ .

Thank you for this! I particularly liked the "Proper Christian Goth attire" piece. 

Some people take themselves far too seriously.

[Fundie Bunny]

14 minutes ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

To me the thing about Bin being a pastor is that he doesn't have any real wisdom. He parrots what he reads. What has he done in life? To me there has to be much more if you are going to guide people spiritually. But, he IS a fundy, so what am I thinking I guess. Sigh. 

Neither has Jeremy, and there he is

[VeganCupcake]

7 hours ago, Kak said:

I'm not sure if there is an exact definition of fundie, but my definition lies mainly in the way the children are raised, and in the way they try to impose their beliefs on everyone else. The superficial tells, such as skirts only, or being allowed to wear trousers, or long hair are not really good indicators. Fundie child are indoctrinated and educated (or not) in a way that doesn't allow them to learn to think for themselves or to develop an alternative world view. 

I would say to fall under the category of "fundie/fundie lite" you would have to be honeschooled.  That's the biggest way fundies isolate themselves. I guess I was raised what people call "fundie lite" because we could wear pants and dance, but otherwise followed the same rules as the Duggars. We were only allowed to know other homeschooling families. 

After my parents quit religion and put me in school, there were some kids that sound similar to you. Very strict Christian parents, but a very different brand of religion. The biggest hallmark of their style of Christianity was not believing in sex before marriage. But still very engaged in mainstream culture and not trying to isolate themselves. Were you allowed to listen to pop music and stuff like that? 

[vspielman]

20 hours ago, Lurky said:

Plus the whole speaking in tongues/slain in the spirit stuff, which is not common here. 

Many years ago, I met a nice guy and dated him on a very casual basis.  He asked me to attend a church service with him one time, and I agreed. (I was young and stupid, and he was cute.) Little did I know it was one of these strange charismatic churches or whatever they are called.  The service was loud and noisy.  All of a sudden, he started saying gibberish, and fell on the floor, making an awful fuss.  I still don't know if he was trying to show off or what, but it was the LAST date.  It scared the hell out of me!

[Fluffy14]

8 hours ago, Lurky said:

I don't think anyone thinks there a There is no "one size fits all" ticksheet of Fundy beliefs. 

But my partner's church explicitly described themselves as Fundamentalist, and Fundy, for short-hand, and while they weren't into homeschooling etc, that's because the UK has a completely different culture, where home-schooling is a very, very rare thing.  As one example, the church gave my partner "pray away the gay therapy" (seriously, no one else in the UK does that outside Fundy churches! It's not a tenet of mainstream Christianity!) and I could give you 100 more examples. 

Of course the USA Fundy movement is it's own beast, and culturally-specific, just as mainstream Christianity is different in every country because of the different cultural background.  It feels a bit like the "the Bates are better than the Duggars" conversations to try to say there couldn't be a Fundy church in the UK, because there absolutely are - and they're not somehow benign and un-harmful because they're not as bad as the craziest USA example.

(I do find it strange that you've unilaterally decided my partner's completely wrong about the church she attended, when you're on a different continent, and don't even know whereabouts in the UK I'm talking about, let alone the individual church.  You'd think I was crazy if I told you "well, YOUR Vineyard church was an outlier, and you're wrong about it", wouldn't you?)

I think I need to clarify further. First off. I am sorry they did that to your partner. I do not attend any church any longer and I do not uphold or believe in "pray the gay away"  Second, you are right, I do not know what flavor of church your partner attended. I believe "pray the gay away" transposes over the church. And fundamentally LGBTQ is seen as a universal sin. Except here , in the Anglican Church. There are more, though even a Mennonite church in Manitoba/Sask I think who have accepted LGBTQ.  But what I want to clarify is this. Fundamental churches do not believe in the Holy Spirit manifesting itself in "slaying of the spirit"  or "demons inhabiting people"  They uphold the idea that the gifts of the spirit disappeared with the apostles and are not for today. One of the biggest proponents of this is John MacArthur in California, and all Baptists , independent Baptists and general protestant churches follow this belief. Thus, those that follow this are in the theological terms fundamental churches and the Vineyard has and was not considered fundamental at all. Those and all Word of Faith type, such as Kenneth Hagen, or Kenneth Copeland and all the offshoots would be considered non fundamental theologically speaking.  Vineyard's founder John Wimber and John MacArthur were enemies of each other.  One of our best friends at the time went to Britain , to start a Vineyard in the very early 90's.  I am familiar with Blaine Cooks teaching on demonism and attended many of his conferences. The theology would have been to pray away the gay, in the demonic sense. The theology at the time was that you could be affected or demonized simply by attending karate, yoga or being raped. Thus needing prayer to get rid of them. Any LGBTQ issues would have fallen under this category or under John and Paula Sandford's teaching of "inner healing"  needing to pray the origins or trauma that would have caused the sin of being gay. The Vineyard was the biggest teachers of the "inner healing " movement of the time, having conferences all over the world teaching this method of prayer for healing of disease , trauma or sin. In fact it was the main focus of the Vineyard movement, that and the Holy spirit moving in their midst like in the NT times. Something that caused a HUGE divide in the Christian church between them and the fundamental church.

   I have known men who attended Vineyard and Mennonite churches who voluntarily went away to a program in the states to pray the gay away. That is different though than the ones that takes kids and beat and torture each other to get the problems out. (Fundamental)  Personally , I don' t think any are successful and do more harm than good. But they would fall under the same Christian belief that LGBTQ is sin as with the Vineyard. I hope this clarifies my position on Vineyard not theologically being  in the Fundamental Camp. They just do NOT mix at all. Duggar's Gothard, ATI, IBLP , independent Baptist etc. Are not even in the same realm theologically as Vineyard. But both believe LBGTQ to be sin that would need to be prayed away. There would be different types of praying the gay away. The fundamental version that Josh attended, which would consist of much bible and quiet prayer and the non fundamental way of laying on of hands, slain in the spirit, laying on of hands for deliverance such as Bob Larson, Blaine Cook teaching ( two different methods) and the Inner Healing model by John and Paula Sandford who started Elijah House which is a combo of deliverance, inner healing and psychology. Or  Bill Johnson ministries.  The latter 4 which would not be considered fundamental because of the stance on whether or not the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the spirit are for today. Even then the fundamentals only believe some of those gifts are for today, like hospitality, helps etc. Not healing or deliverance.   Now That is here in North America and may not be the brand of Vineyard your friend attended. They may have incorporated many different beliefs.

 

[Bethella]

13 hours ago, Fluffy14 said:

I think I need to clarify further. First off. I am sorry they did that to your partner. I do not attend any church any longer and I do not uphold or believe in "pray the gay away"  Second, you are right, I do not know what flavor of church your partner attended. I believe "pray the gay away" transposes over the church. And fundamentally LGBTQ is seen as a universal sin. Except here , in the Anglican Church. There are more, though even a Mennonite church in Manitoba/Sask I think who have accepted LGBTQ.  But what I want to clarify is this. Fundamental churches do not believe in the Holy Spirit manifesting itself in "slaying of the spirit"  or "demons inhabiting people"  They uphold the idea that the gifts of the spirit disappeared with the apostles and are not for today. One of the biggest proponents of this is John MacArthur in California, and all Baptists , independent Baptists and general protestant churches follow this belief. Thus, those that follow this are in the theological terms fundamental churches and the Vineyard has and was not considered fundamental at all. Those and all Word of Faith type, such as Kenneth Hagen, or Kenneth Copeland and all the offshoots would be considered non fundamental theologically speaking.  Vineyard's founder John Wimber and John MacArthur were enemies of each other.  One of our best friends at the time went to Britain , to start a Vineyard in the very early 90's.  I am familiar with Blaine Cooks teaching on demonism and attended many of his conferences. The theology would have been to pray away the gay, in the demonic sense. The theology at the time was that you could be affected or demonized simply by attending karate, yoga or being raped. Thus needing prayer to get rid of them. Any LGBTQ issues would have fallen under this category or under John and Paula Sandford's teaching of "inner healing"  needing to pray the origins or trauma that would have caused the sin of being gay. The Vineyard was the biggest teachers of the "inner healing " movement of the time, having conferences all over the world teaching this method of prayer for healing of disease , trauma or sin. In fact it was the main focus of the Vineyard movement, that and the Holy spirit moving in their midst like in the NT times. Something that caused a HUGE divide in the Christian church between them and the fundamental church.

   I have known men who attended Vineyard and Mennonite churches who voluntarily went away to a program in the states to pray the gay away. That is different though than the ones that takes kids and beat and torture each other to get the problems out. (Fundamental)  Personally , I don' t think any are successful and do more harm than good. But they would fall under the same Christian belief that LGBTQ is sin as with the Vineyard. I hope this clarifies my position on Vineyard not theologically being  in the Fundamental Camp. They just do NOT mix at all. Duggar's Gothard, ATI, IBLP , independent Baptist etc. Are not even in the same realm theologically as Vineyard. But both believe LBGTQ to be sin that would need to be prayed away. There would be different types of praying the gay away. The fundamental version that Josh attended, which would consist of much bible and quiet prayer and the non fundamental way of laying on of hands, slain in the spirit, laying on of hands for deliverance such as Bob Larson, Blaine Cook teaching ( two different methods) and the Inner Healing model by John and Paula Sandford who started Elijah House which is a combo of deliverance, inner healing and psychology. Or  Bill Johnson ministries.  The latter 4 which would not be considered fundamental because of the stance on whether or not the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the spirit are for today. Even then the fundamentals only believe some of those gifts are for today, like hospitality, helps etc. Not healing or deliverance.   Now That is here in North America and may not be the brand of Vineyard your friend attended. They may have incorporated many different beliefs.

It seems to me that you are defining fundamentalist as believing a specific set of Christian theological views. That isn't the definition that I use. While FJ doesn't have a formal consensus or definition of what is a fundamentalist, to me a fundamentalist is anyone who believes in the strict, literal interpretation of scripture in their religion/beliefs and that their way is the only way, no other beliefs have any validity. In my view you can have fundamentalist Christians, Jews, Muslims, Atheists, the list goes on.

[DaniLouisiana]

@Stormy, thank you for the Christian goth link. I looked at because my daughter is a goth but what I found was a "A Pagan's letter to Pastors". It really hit me where I live and described exactly how I feel about churches. 

[elliha]

49 minutes ago, Bethella said:

It seems to me that you are defining fundamentalist as believing a specific set of Christian theological views. That isn't the definition that I use. While FJ doesn't have a formal consensus or definition of what is a fundamentalist, to me a fundamentalist is anyone who believes in the strict, literal interpretation of scripture in their religion/beliefs and that their way is the only way, no other beliefs have any validity. In my view you can have fundamentalist Christians, Jews, Muslims, Atheists, the list goes on.

This is the definition of fundamentalism. The type of fundamentalists we discuss here are normally adhering to some extra biblical teachings such as extreme modesty, quiverfull/militant fecundity and courtship but you don't have to do this to be a fundamentalist. Outward signs are often used by fundamentalists but they are not something that must be part of fundamentalism or that people who use the same signs must have the same ideas. I wore a headcovering anytime I left the house and often in my house as well for about 5 years and mostly long skirts for about 2-3 of them. I have never been even close to a fundamentalist but this was a meaningful spiritual practice to me and it is very likely I will return to full time headcovering at some point in life. 

[nastyhobbitses]

19 hours ago, singsingsing said:

I'm sure Ben and Jessa are living pretty comfortably off their TLC income. Obviously that's not something they're going to want to rely on in the long term, but for now I'm sure they're financially secure. They also consider the show to be part of their ministry. We may think that's b.s., but in their view they're not floundering aimlessly, they're pursuing a career in ministry.

My biggest concern with Ben is that he wants to become a pastor, and nothing I've seen shows me that he's cut out for it in any way at all. He seems to think and consider things a fair bit, so maybe he could go into Christian counselling or something like that. But the guy is not a good speaker. He's not charismatic or articulate at all. I really don't think being a preacher or pastor is a good career goal for him.

He seems slightly more thoughtful and has a better education than the crowd he runs with, but I still wouldn't want him to go into the sort of counseling he'd be qualified to do; based on what happened to the Duggar girls and Josh, I'm guessing that a lot of "Christian counseling" (not, mind you, Degreed psychiatrists and psychologists who specialize in very religious patients or pastoral care) is "pray some more, it was probably your fault for being a whore/not in love with Jesus enough, and because of legal loopholes, I'm not mandated to report any abuse you're suffering, that'll be $300".

[danni9242]

RE: Jeremy as a pastor. I agree he's not what I would consider a great candidate, but in comparison to Ben at least he has:

Been to college

Workked overseas.

Pursued/had a job in the 'real world'.

Actually has a grain of charisma.

Has experienced going partying/dating etc. He wouldn't be counselling people with no clue of what it's like to live away from your parents, face peer pressure etc.

I wouldn't pick him but I think with the backing/support of his parents he won't be terrible in pastor terms.

[flycat]

Looks like the Rembrandt survived!