Big Sandy Family Conference April 2017

[Lurky]

ALERT just seems *so* symbolic of the whole thing.  Going on 3 hour (ZOMG!!!) hikes with a full pack, just because - I don't get it.  I did the Duke of Edinburgh's Award at school, where you do stuff like plan your own routes and walk them, first carrying just what you need to eat, then everything you need to survive for 4 days. (In my school you could do DofE, or join a military Cadet group, or do Community Service, but you had to do something.)

Later I worked in an outdoor centre, where we took kids on overnight trips bivvying, and volunteered at uni on projects taking kids away to the Lake District etc.  They're TONS of fun, and you learn a lot - BUT they all have purposes.  You never carry stuff that's unnecessary, for example, and lots of emphasis on keeping a pack minimalist. 

This? The purpose is to demonstrate they're manly men, by carrying loads there's no need for - just pointless make-work.  And to give kids who'd never actually join the Forces a pretence that they could, all the while mimicking the trappings of the military, without ever any of the good aspects (serving and defending people who need it, eg).

[mydoggoskeeper]

1 minute ago, Lurky said:

ALERT just seems *so* symbolic of the whole thing.  Going on 3 hour (ZOMG!!!) hikes with a full pack, just because - I don't get it.  I did the Duke of Edinburgh's Award at school, where you do stuff like plan your own routes and walk them, first carrying just what you need to eat, then everything you need to survive for 4 days. (In my school you could do DofE, or join a military Cadet group, or do Community Service, but you had to do something.)

Later I worked in an outdoor centre, where we took kids on overnight trips bivvying, and volunteered at uni on projects taking kids away to the Lake District etc.  They're TONS of fun, and you learn a lot - BUT they all have purposes.  You never carry stuff that's unnecessary, for example, and lots of emphasis on keeping a pack minimalist. 

This? The purpose is to demonstrate they're manly men, by carrying loads there's no need for - just pointless make-work.  And to give kids who'd never actually join the Forces a pretence that they could, all the while mimicking the trappings of the military, without ever any of the good aspects (serving and defending people who need it, eg).

So the cadets graduate from what looks like their basic training and then become "responders" but they also have people with military-like ranks there  e.g. Major, SGM, etc.   Inquiring minds and an *real* Major wants to know who commissioned them. 

Fun fact: its illegal to impersonate a commissioned officer, whether one derives a benefit from it or not.  Merely holding oneself out as one is sufficient.  

 

 

[formergothardite]

44 minutes ago, mydoggoskeeper said:

Inquiring minds and an *real* Major wants to know who commissioned them. 

That would be Bill Gothard originally, I'm not sure who makes up the fake ranks now. The whole thing is to make people feel like they are doing something military without parents having to send their precious sons off to the real military where they will be exposed to the ebil world. 

I remember when it was first introduced they were convinced that America and other countries would be begging for ALERT to come help them. 

[purjolok84]

I just clicked on that, and fell down the rabbit hole of their travels in Canada, since I live I near that area. There is no Cleardale, which she repeats about 40 times, across 4 posts. The place is Coaldale, and she mentions how remote it is, and the miracle of jebus finding a rim for Uriah. Coaldale is 10 k from Lethbridge, a city of 100,000 people, with lots of garages and 1 or 2 Walmarts. 
Use facts loosely to glorify jebus must be part of the stevehovah creed. 

Why am I not surprised that Steve Maxwell would lie, whoops, embellish the truth to make him and his crazy family look good? Because you know he would he would look at it this way.

[purjolok84]

The whole thing is to make people feel like they are doing something military without parents having to send their precious sons off to the real military where they will be exposed to the ebil world. 
I remember when it was first introduced they were convinced that America and other countries would be begging for ALERT to come help them. 

I'd be laughing, but it's just so insulting to people who are actually out there serving in the army/navy/air force/marines. ALERT is nothing more than a machine for indoctrination and abuse. ATI kids wouldn't last very long, even if America begged and pleaded.

[Mela99]

On 2/3/2017 at 10:22 AM, smittykins said:

JIM BOB AND MICHELLE DUGGAR

As parents of 19 kids including a confessed child molestor Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar teach invaluable lessons about equipping and releasing their children to follow what God   Jim Bob has called them to do.  Except Jana.  Someone has to stick around to be a buddy to the littles.  We can't expect MEEchelle to actually parent her own kids, amirite?

Fixed it for 'em.

Fixed that for you

 

[ophelia]

17 hours ago, EowynW said:

I live only a couple of hours if that from Big Sandy. My husband was raised soft ATI and they went out there often and he did some ALERT and even worked at the DTS when it was at that hotel in Dallas. He thinks Gothard is full of **** but he said the camps used to be fun with lots of family camping and fishing and canoeing and stuff. Looked like a hideous lineup this year. When/if we ever have kids we aren't stepping a foot on that campground. 

I can totally see that kids of fundie families love Big Sandy since most of them only spend time with their siblings and don't have a lot of friends outside of their home and when you get older it the best or even only way to be able to find a spouse that is just as fundie as your daddy is.

[mydoggoskeeper]

11 hours ago, purjolok84 said:

 

I'd be laughing, but it's just so insulting to people who are actually out there serving in the army/navy/air force/marines. ALERT is nothing more than a machine for indoctrination and abuse. ATI kids wouldn't last very long, even if America begged and pleaded.

 

Thankfully I haven't seen them train with actual weapons yet.  Hopefully they stay as unneeded "responders" and not a militia.  

[purjolok84]

Thankfully I haven't seen them train with actual weapons yet.  Hopefully they stay as unneeded "responders" and not a militia.  

The LAST thing these ALERT boys need is a gun in their hands - it would be nothing but trouble.

[front hugs > duggs]

33 minutes ago, purjolok84 said:

 

The LAST thing these ALERT boys need is a gun in their hands - it would be nothing but trouble.

 

Agreed! I read the Handmaid's Tale years and years ago, but after watching the first three episodes that have been modernized from the book to relate to today's climate, and after learning about IBLP, ATI,  and ALERT (which I didn't know about when I read the novel), it's actually quite scary to think those boys could operate weapons.

I actually fell into quite a funk last night after watching the third episode. Between that, and a discussion I saw on facebook about Conservative Rabbis not being allowed by the Rabbinical Assembly to perform interfaith weddings, on top of hearing other Jewish FJ user's stories on adversity in the Duggar threads, I'm just super bummed out

[purjolok84]

I'm looking forward to watching The Handmaid's Tale - reading the book was horrifying. To think that it's easy enough to control someone by freezing a bank account (to begin with ...)

As for the Rabbinical Assembly, what is this, 1957? I know that there are some Jewish people who are very exclusive (I've done relief teaching at a Hasidic school where the kids have a mix of fascination and waryness towards anyone not like them), and I understand that the Jewish faith and culture is important, but I feel that it is up to the prospective partners if they want to marry. If they feel that faith is not an issue, then it shouldn't be. Also there are probably rabbis who would carry out an interfaith marriage, but if there has been a blanket no, then they can't.

Quote

Agreed! I read the Handmaid's Tale years and years ago, but after watching the first three episodes that have been modernized from the book to relate to today's climate, and after learning about

IBLP, ATI,  and ALERT (which I didn't know about when I read the novel), it's actually quite scary to think those boys could operate weapons.

I actually fell into quite a funk last night after watching the third episode. Between that, and a discussion I saw on facebook about Conservative Rabbis not being allowed by the Rabbinical Assembly to perform interfaith weddings, on top of hearing other Jewish FJ user's stories on adversity in the Duggar threads, I'm just super bummed out [emoji20]

[formergothardite]

Looks like some of the groups do train with guns.

 

It looks like part of ALERT is trying to get ALERT guys into police departments which is scary as hell. 

The boys the Family Conference get to be ALERT cadets. 

Spoiler

 

Girls get to be Pre-Embassy.

 

 

 

[Maxwell]

I distantly know someone who has gone through the ALERT training.  From what I can see from the FB posts shared, they are mainly training to be first responders.  They have a pretty extensive EMT program with repelling, rough terrain, water rescue, etc.  I did some searching a while back to try and get a feel for the real world value of the training and found positive responses so they seem to be providing *some* value.  

[front hugs > duggs]

So I looked on the Family Conference website and it says children's institute is through age 7, with pre-embassy starting at age 8. Josie is still only 7 and looks to be in the pre-embassy per the photos of her in the burgundy shirt on the DFO FB page. While I'm not surprised JB&M can get ATI to make an exception for special miracle snowflake Josie, I'm wondering why? Maybe they didn't want her to be alone in children's institute, as this is the first time I'm guessing there isn't a younger sibling to be grouped with?

Although- Mackynzie is in a pre-assembly shirt, too. And I believe she's only 7 as well. Curious.

[Palimpsest]

41 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

It looks like part of ALERT is trying to get ALERT guys into police departments which is scary as hell. 

That has been rumored to have been going on for a while.   "Gothardised" police departments discussed in this old article:   http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/7/452169/- 

Going into the police or volunteering as a sheriff or constable is apparently something of a tradition for ATI boys, see JD Duggar and Bates spawn.  

16 minutes ago, Maxwell said:

They have a pretty extensive EMT program with repelling, rough terrain, water rescue, etc.  I did some searching a while back to try and get a feel for the real world value of the training and found positive responses so they seem to be providing *some* value.

This seems to be true.  Here's an ex-ATI person's description of his time at ALERT.  He found some use in it.   http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/12/my-life-in-ati-part-two/

ALERT also seems to be suffering from a few cut backs.  They used to offer more extravagant things like pilot training and diving but not all the more extravagant courses are available any more.  They have also revamped the website to give less information about what they actually do there these days.

I think they've hidden weapons and "police" training under "leadership" training.  The Alert webpage used to be more upfront about it.  

Also ALERT used to have a genuine ex-military "colonel."  Looking at their list of staff these days all the "commisioned" officers seem to be trained by ALERT and nothing but ALERT.

No wonder their drills look so sloppy.

[EowynW]

2 hours ago, purjolok84 said:

 

The LAST thing these ALERT boys need is a gun in their hands - it would be nothing but trouble.

 

Eh my husband was in shooting sports in 4H growing up and he turned out fine.  But yea wouldn't want to see the program use them. 

29 minutes ago, Maxwell said:

I distantly know someone who has gone through the ALERT training.  From what I can see from the FB posts shared, they are mainly training to be first responders.  They have a pretty extensive EMT program with repelling, rough terrain, water rescue, etc.  I did some searching a while back to try and get a feel for the real world value of the training and found positive responses so they seem to be providing *some* value.  

Yes, my husband went on to serve ten years as a fireman. And he told me many of the guys in the program went on to serve in the military, EMS, Fire, Police etc. and did very well. We have zero interest in anything IBLP now but from what he said some aspects about ALERT where useful. 

4 hours ago, ophelia said:

I can totally see that kids of fundie families love Big Sandy since most of them only spend time with their siblings and don't have a lot of friends outside of their home and when you get older it the best or even only way to be able to find a spouse that is just as fundie as your daddy is.

My husband grew up in a huge circle of church, 4H, large homeschool group etc so for them it wasn't so much that. HHS folks were big into camping/outdoors and they enjoyed visiting. Funny enough so far none of them in his family have married good little gothard girls. They've all married regular girls with a wide streak of love for bucking the rules.  There is one brother left and we are all watching to see what kind of girl he will marry one day. 

7 minutes ago, EowynW said:

idk how to work this on mobile  sorry  

 

[mydoggoskeeper]

20 minutes ago, Maxwell said:

I distantly know someone who has gone through the ALERT training.  From what I can see from the FB posts shared, they are mainly training to be first responders.  They have a pretty extensive EMT program with repelling, rough terrain, water rescue, etc.  I did some searching a while back to try and get a feel for the real world value of the training and found positive responses so they seem to be providing *some* value.  

I can see some value if they transitioned into being an actual EMT, firefighter, or police officer.  But this active shooter drill has me concerned if these guys remain, as they are likely to, private citizens.

 First, these people are not likely to be in a place where there would be active shooters (sadly schools and other public buildings seem to be prime targets).

Second, presumably to respond to an active shooter one needs to be carrying -- looking at these jokers, it would be difficult for me  to tell the difference between the assailant and the "responder' given the preponderance of white male shooters recently let alone mention the problems LE has with armed people on the scene of a situation like that.  

Also, I hope those masks are respirators for lead and not part of some kind of "assault kit" they are fitting these boys with. 

 

[purjolok84]

5 minutes ago, EowynW said:

Eh my husband was in shooting sports in 4H growing up and he turned out fine.  But yea wouldn't want to see the program use them. 

4H is a different kind of creature altogether - I'm sure your husband didn't get recruited into a pseudo-army for the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ!

I wish I had had 4H or something similar - I love animals and gardening ... 

[EowynW]

4 minutes ago, mydoggoskeeper said:

I can see some value if they transitioned into being an actual EMT, firefighter, or police officer.  But this active shooter drill has me concerned if these guys remain, as they are likely to, private citizens.

 First, these people are not likely to be in a place where there would be active shooters (sadly schools and other public buildings seem to be prime targets).

Second, presumably to respond to an active shooter one needs to be carrying -- looking at these jokers, it would be difficult for me  to tell the difference between the assailant and the "responder' given the preponderance of white male shooters recently let alone mention the problems LE has with armed people on the scene of a situation like that.  

Also, I hope those masks are respirators for lead and not part of some kind of "assault kit" they are fitting these boys with. 

 

I conceal and carry and am very much into personal self defense (you've got atleast an hour response time where I live) and active shooting is nothing I ever ever want to try to fight my way out of. My instructor was big on putting a plan together in events like that and your FIRST OPTION is always to try to LEAVE or HIDE.  Period. You don't draw your gun unless you have absolutely no other choice in an active shooter situation. 

9 minutes ago, purjolok84 said:

4H is a different kind of creature altogether - I'm sure your husband didn't get recruited into a pseudo-army for the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ!

I wish I had had 4H or something similar - I love animals and gardening ... 

He was in ALERT for awhile. His family were soft IBLP. 

 

I am so jealous of him and his 4H experiences. Even though hus folks were fundie he had a very good, very very well rounded homeschool experience. My parents didn't allow us to take any kind of 4H until right before I aged out. I was able to do the dog project one year. I hope to start a dog project in our county one day. 

[mydoggoskeeper]

1 minute ago, EowynW said:

I conceal and carry and am very much into personal self defense (you've got atleast an hour response time where I live) and active shooting is nothing I ever ever want to try to fight my way out of. My instructor was big on putting a plan together in events like that and your FIRST OPTION is always to try to LEAVE or HIDE.  Period. You don't draw your gun unless you have absolutely no other choice in an active shooter situation. 

I'm glad they are teaching that.   I hear some jokers saying things like "I'm just going to shoot them in the leg" not realizing how fing difficult it is to hit a small moving target with a handgun with any accuracy when you are more than a few meters away. 

[EowynW]

3 minutes ago, mydoggoskeeper said:

I'm glad they are teaching that.   I hear some jokers saying things like "I'm just going to shoot them in the leg" not realizing how fing difficult it is to hit a small moving target with a handgun with any accuracy when you are more than a few meters away. 

Oh gosh yes. Quality instruction does not teach you to be a save the day police wanna be! 

No. That is not how it works. If, God forbid, you ever have to draw your gun to protect yourself, you cannot waste time trying to hit a leg. You aim for center mass and you stop shooting as soon as the target ceases to be a threat. 

[purjolok84]

4 minutes ago, EowynW said:

He was in ALERT for awhile. His family were soft IBLP. 

I am so jealous of him and his 4H experiences. Even though hus folks were fundie he had a very good, very very well rounded homeschool experience. My parents didn't allow us to take any kind of 4H until right before I aged out. I was able to do the dog project one year. I hope to start a dog project in our county one day. 

Whoops! I think I just made an assumption!  Sorry.

That's interesting though - what did your husband think of ALERT? And was he fit enough or was it a challenge? Were boys sent there as punishment? And is he (I'm guessing a bit) less conservative than the rest of his family?

[HarleyQuinn]

ALERT and active shooter courses are scary. It's not the same as 4H or any normal group. The egos in this IBLP culture are insane enough already. 

[EowynW]

47 minutes ago, purjolok84 said:

Whoops! I think I just made an assumption!  Sorry.

That's interesting though - what did your husband think of ALERT? And was he fit enough or was it a challenge? Were boys sent there as punishment? And is he (I'm guessing a bit) less conservative than the rest of his family?

He enjoyed it but he's always loved that kind of stuff. He has always suffered from asthma so I don't think it was the easiest but that man is impossible to keep down and he stuck with it. I think he only did it once though. His parents honestly thought it'd be something fun for their houseful of boys to do so they sent them.

 

Yes. Most of their boys are less conservative. His parents were never diehard gothardites though. They never took the teachings too seriously. 

 

I will have to ask him if he knew of any of the guys being sent there as punishment. 

[formergothardite]

ALERT is a lot like what EXCEL was in that yeah, it did teach some practical skills that some of the women who went through it were able to use to make money and some look back at it fondly. But both also use heavy indoctrination and there are many who found it a terrible experience. Except ALERT is using guns and a fake army, while EXCEL was just teaching how to start a home business and do car care. And how to do your make-up, couldn't forget to look pretty while checking your oil. 

 My worry is that the people who go through all that training and then use the skills to join something like the police department  also take the ALERT religious indoctrination along with them. The last thing this country needs is more fundie men working in police departments. This program isn't going to teach men to look at women as their equals or to treat other religions(or people with no religions) with respect. This program is made to indoctrinate young men and then send them out into the public sector with these views.

Here is a CBN video about it. Lots of manly men being men and training them to take the Gospel wherever they go with these skills. Even though the video was made in 2009, they didn't mention Gothard by name. The Tanner guy talks about the person who started it, but never said the name even though he is clearly describing Gothard. Tanner appears to be a Trump fan who is also into politics.