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lilwriter85

The 2017 March for Life

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formergothardite
1 hour ago, AuLait said:

It really is about what they feel are two lives being equal and giving one the authority to kill the other. 

Do they really, though? Are they advocating for every single miscarriage to be treated as a potential murder? If my newborn mysteriously died in my care, there would be an investigation and if I did anything to cause the death, I would be charged. So if they feel all the lives are equal, they need to start doing that. If they aren't, then bullshit on this being about lives being equal. 

I know this might sound harsh, but I'm just sick and tired of anti-choicers shrieking about how they think the fetus is equal to a human who is born all while refusing to actually treat a fetus like a human. They need to be forced to either admit they don't really want to treat a fetus like human or that they want to treat every single miscarriage like a potential murder. 

Also, how much do they care about the lives of women who are denied abortions? Do they realize what denying a woman an abortion typically does to that woman's life? In the anti-choice movement, women are disposable. 

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Toothfairy
1 hour ago, AuLait said:

I feel it's too easy to turn either side into monsters. Pro-choice does not always equal baby murderers who want to use abortion as birth control. Pro-life doesn't always equal women haters and prudes.

I was raised strongly pro-life, volunteered in CPC's, did the local March For Life many times through my teens. Probably 75% of the people I know are pro-life. I am a fairly recent convert to pro-choice. Neither label is comfortable for me because I understand both sides.

Now there are definitely plenty of pro-lifers who fit the stereotypes. One of my sisters, a nurse, is one. She thinks people just want to have consequence free sex. Keep your legs closed, blah blah. But no birth control either because it's poison and no sex education because you'll give them ideas! But honestly I can say the majority are people who have fundamental belief that life begins at conception (or implantation... Oh the debates we had!) and cannot resolve the conflict of ending one life at the choice of another so they settle on no one having the choice. Most of them are OK with birth control and sex education. (**This may be because I live in a liberal state). It really comes down to whose life is more important. And that is where the divide starts.

 

There are so many complicated and personal reasons someone might get an abortion and I feel my pro-life friends are not as sensitive to these concerns as they should be. I also feel the movement has decieved them in some areas with misleading information.  On the other hand, I feel my pro-choice friends misunderstand the core issues pro-lifers have with abortion. In my experience, it's not been about punishing women at all for most people. It really is about what they feel are two lives being equal and giving one the authority to kill the other. 

For myself, the change of heart came when I thought of my daughters who were sexually abused by a family member. If they had been impregnated, would I make them carry the child? No, I wouldn't. So then I followed the logical course... If I could not make them to do it, how could make others? If I believed a victimized woman should have full ownership of her body, why not all women?

Anyway, not sure what my point was ☺I guess I've had stuff rolling around my head since the Women's March last weekend and seeing the ugliness from all sides on social media and I needed to spill. I'm not sure there will ever be a resolution to the abortion debate but I resist the temptation to lump either side into broad stereotypes and reduce folks to the lowest common denominator. I hope that as medical advances continue that eventually a solution might be found that could reduce abortions even more than contraception and sex education.

 

 

 

I have prolife friends and family. Your own personal beliefs are fine. Forcing others isn't. A few prolifers are against birth control because it causes abortion. I just can't see an embryo as a human. I hate the lies they spew out. They used a 6 week old fetus and told a woman it was 15 weeks. They force choose adoption on women because the adoption industry needs more babies. I don't like the lies and shaming women. The fake pictures. I especially hate the hypocritical folks. When push comes to shove you don't know what you'll do with an unplanned pregnancy. I use to be native as a teen and young adult. Until I got to college. 

An aborted baby could never be replaced. 

A miscarried baby can always be replaced – “Oh, don’t worry, hon – your time will come again. You’ll have more. Just relax and trust God. You’ll see.

 

An aborted baby was killed against God’s design.

 

A miscarried baby fulfilled God’s plans.

 

An aborted baby was a real person, and should have the rights as such.

 

A miscarried baby was not a real child 

 

An aborted baby should always be missed in this world. God had created them for a purpose, no matter what health issues they may have had.

 

 

A miscarried baby was meant for heaven — and we moms should just be so thankful we have a baby in heaven, and should not grieve the loss of their place on earth. After all, they never TRULY had a place on earth, did they?

 

 

 

Miscarriage- God's plan. 

Abortion- Evil. That child could've cured cancer. 

 

 

If life really begins at conception. Then an embryo would have equal rights. We would be able to claim a fetus on our taxes and health insurance. Women who miscarry would get a death certificate. Every miscarriage would be investigated. 

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Toothfairy

When will this March ever end? It's stupid these fools are closing down roads. Last year they caused a shit storm on the roads during a blizzard. 

 

Abortion will never end. Adoption isn't an option for many pregnant women. We already have a ton of kids looking for families. I think the only real reason we will never end this March is due to money. Prolife groups make a ton of money off their bs. 

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samurai_sarah
1 hour ago, AuLait said:

I feel it's too easy to turn either side into monsters. Pro-choice does not always equal baby murderers who want to use abortion as birth control. Pro-life doesn't always equal women haters and prudes.

Unfortunately, the other side refuses women help, when they are pregnant. Or help, when they have young children. Maternity leave isn't thick on the ground. And even that presumes that you have a job,

In an ideal word, abortion wouldn't happen. In the real world, it does. No matter what. I think it's best to provide birth control, child-care and maternity leave. In an effort to lessen abortion, but still provide services.

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formergothardite

The pro-life movement almost always supports politics that hurt women and children. They seem to actively campaign against policies that lower abortion rates. Until they are out there marching in support of things that help women and children and lower abortion rates, they are just advocating to punish women.

 

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AuLait

I am not advocating a pro-life position. Just sharing my perspective of growing up in the movement and my change of mind. There are people who don't support many of the stances typically taken by the movement as a whole and who do put their money where there mouth is regarding adoption, fostering, resources, education, etc. You won't be getting a debate from me over the many ways pro-life has hurt women and children. 

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formergothardite

I did understand that you personally don't advocate that belief system. :my_smile: What I disagreed with was that your friends actually value a fetus as equal to a human who is born. I think they say that, but are your friends who say that advocating for miscarriages to be investigated? If they don't, then the excuse that they do this to women because they view all life as equal is bullshit. 

I too grew up in the movement, marched in rallies and all that, so I know the perspective quiet well. But what that perspective shows is that most of the "all life is equal" folks don't really mean it. And I'm sort of over people pretending like they do. 

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feministxtian

I had this discussion with some pro-life fuckwits. I asked them, OK...so let's go for a real situation here. You ban abortion. No legal abortions anywhere. Now...a woman gets pregnant with a child that has catastrophic birth defects. Are YOU willing to give financial, medical, nursing support to this family? No? Then who the hell are you to decide for someone else? 

Birth control? You claim that life starts at conception...so any form of birth control that MIGHT lead to a fertilized egg is abortifacient, right? So, then what? 

They're beyond stupid. Beyond stupid. 

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HereticHick

Here on Capitol Hill this AM, I've only seen a few groups of anti-choice marchers. We will see how things turn out this afternoon when they arrive on Capitol Hill and at the Supreme Court. Since the President is already publicly obsessing over the size of this march, I hope it is pathetically small. And Sad.

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Marly
14 hours ago, AuLait said:

But honestly I can say the majority are people who have fundamental belief that life begins at conception (or implantation... Oh the debates we had!) and cannot resolve the conflict of ending one life at the choice of another so they settle on no one having the choice.

But not allowing abortion does not mean no one gets the choice. Rather, it means people who believe life beings at conception get the choice. Their choice of believing life begins at conception is chosen over the bodily autonomy of women who do not share that belief.
The easiest and imo best solution is allowing abortion, so that no one is forced to act according to someone else's beliefs.

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mirele

If the pro-lifers really were pro-life, they wouldn't be against ACA, SNAP, and other aspects of the social safety net. Nope. It's about punishing women for having sex.

1 hour ago, feministxtian said:

Birth control? You claim that life starts at conception...so any form of birth control that MIGHT lead to a fertilized egg is abortifacient, right? So, then what? 

They're beyond stupid. Beyond stupid. 

These people who say life begins at conception have no conception as to how that actually works, or how many fertilized eggs are "lost" due to failure to implant. I've seen estimates of between 33 and 50 percent of fertilized eggs fail to implant. And the eggs that have been captured for analysis, most of them were doomed anyway. It's as if the body knows somehow that this egg has (for example) a very bad, not compatible with life trisomy (multiple of the same chromosome) and won't let it implant.
 

So if the fertilized egg fails to implant and washes out with the next menstrual cycle, is that an abortion?

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lilwriter85

I just saw on the Today Show that Pence will be at the March. So get ready for tons of pics on instagram and twitter.

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Gabe

All the pro-murder folks talking about how much they care about children. It's disgusting.

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CTRLZero
6 minutes ago, Gabe said:

All the pro-murder folks talking about how much they care about children. It's disgusting.

What have you personally done lately, for children?  If you are passionate about this subject, I assume you are doing your best to financially and physically support all humans from birth to death.  

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Carm_88
All the pro-murder folks talking about how much they care about children. It's disgusting.

730bcad8da7f7e9e0ef1b23b765626d0.jpg
Hey Gabe! Think about that and kiss my pro choice arse!

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formergothardite
31 minutes ago, Gabe said:

All the pro-murder folks talking about how much they care about children. It's disgusting.

Real question, are you wanting every single miscarriage treated as a potential murder? If not then you are nothing more than a hypocrite. Do you vote for people like Trumpence? Then you are voting to raise abortion rates and are nothing but a hypocrite. 

And it isn't just refugee kids, it is refugee people. If you are not fighting to bring refugees to safety and help them(and that often means brigning them here),  then you can just get your hypocritical self out of my uterus. 

 

Edited by formergothardite

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Gabe
1 minute ago, formergothardite said:

Real question, are you wanting every single miscarriage treated as a potential murder? If not then you are nothing more than a hypocrite. Do you vote for people like Trumpence? Then you are voting to raise abortion rates and are nothing but a hypocrite. 

 

Did you study logic? none of your points are connected in any meaningful or logical way.

 

9 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:


730bcad8da7f7e9e0ef1b23b765626d0.jpg
Hey Gabe! Think about that and kiss my pro choice arse!

Except I oppose all foreign wars and believe that there should be no government control of borders so what exactly are you talking about?

 

23 minutes ago, CTRLZero said:

What have you personally done lately, for children?  If you are passionate about this subject, I assume you are doing your best to financially and physically support all humans from birth to death.  

Since when does opposition to legally sanctioned murder morph into a duty to personally provide the necessities of life to every human being on earth?

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CTRLZero
3 minutes ago, Gabe said:

Since when does opposition to legally sanctioned murder morph into a duty to personally provide the necessities of life to every human being on earth?

Just as I thought.

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Carm_88
10 minutes ago, Gabe said:

Except I oppose all foreign wars and believe that there should be no government control of borders so what exactly are you talking about?

I studied philosophy and logic, also biology and human development. I'm talking about the fact that pro-lifers are marching to take away the reproductive rights of my sisters in the country that is down below me. Abortion is not murder, it's no more murder than women getting their period or having a miscarriage. Birth control is not wrong, it is to give women the choice to have children when they want to rather then when some man decides. 

Pro-life? Have you volunteered to help kids with their homework, taught newcomers to the US to read, taught kids the wonders of science? I have. Well new comers to Canada. I care about children and the quality of life that they will have. And I've donated to Planned Parenthood because I know all the good that they do. 

I'm glad I live in a country where the Prime Minister is a self proclaimed Feminist. 

Quote

Since when does opposition to legally sanctioned murder morph into a duty to personally provide the necessities of life to every human being on earth?

Since you're worried about the state of women's uteruses. 

Edited by Carm_88

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formergothardite
26 minutes ago, Gabe said:

Did you study logic? none of your points are connected in any meaningful or logical w

More than you since you can't even seem to grasp the basics of this. So a fetus is equal to a human life, correct? So why don't you treat it like that? If a baby dies mysteriously in the care of the mother, there is an investigation. Since a fetus is equal to a life, why not investigate if it mysteriously dies? Why not treat is like a person? Why not see if the mother did something to "murder" her baby and cause the miscarriage*? 

And, one of the things that moved me away from the anti-choice movement was studying and realizing that the laws they support do nothing to lower abortion rates and often just raise them. Last time the Mexico City Policy was enacted, abortion rates rose 40%. Yeah, so you support stuff like that, you support more abortions. There are a lot of good studies out there on how to lower abortion rates, the republican party is against all of them. 

It might surprise you, but most pro-choice people want to do whatever they can to lower abortion rates. Screaming baby killer doesn't do that. Making it illegal doesn't do that. Taking away welfare doesn't do that. Taking away free birth control doesn't do that. 

What fact based policies are you supporting that lower abortion rates. If you aren't and don't have anything that has been proved to lower abortion rates, then you can get your hypocritical ass out of my uterus. 

*a miscarriage is a type of an abortion. 

Edited by formergothardite

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unholypoledancer

@Carm_88 I am envious of my neighbors to the north! I also wonder how our neighbors can be so forward thinking yet having a feminist leader in my country would strike terror in the hearts of many. I think that's awesome you reach out to young people through teaching science/reading. I love my country, but I feel as though it has gone back several decades. And not in a good way. Anyway, kudos to you!

ETA: I firmly believe that paid maternity leave and access to affordable childcare would help lower the abortion rate.

 

Edited by unholypoledancer

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formergothardite

Gabe is willing to put the lives of women at risk, but isn't willing to personally help those in need. That pretty much sums up the conservative Christian right. 

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Gabe
13 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

More than you since you can't even seem to grasp the basics of this. So a fetus is equal to a human life, correct? So why don't you treat it like that? If a baby dies mysteriously in the care of the mother, there is an investigation. Since a fetus is equal to a life, why not investigate if it mysteriously dies? Why not treat is like a person? Why not see if the mother did something to "murder" her baby and cause the miscarriage? 

If an accuser (advocate for the child) accuses a mother of intentionally aborting her child an investigation of a miscarriage would be appropriate.

Quote

And, one of the things that moved me away from the anti-choice movement was studying and realizing that the laws they support do nothing to lower abortion rates and often just raise them. Last time the Mexico City Policy was enacted, abortion rates rose 40%. Yeah, so you support stuff like that, you support more abortions. There are a lot of good studies out there on how to lower abortion rates, the republican party is against all of them. 

Evidence is highly lacking here.

Quote

It might surprise you, but most pro-choice people want to do whatever they can to lower abortion rates. Screaming baby killer doesn't do that. Making it illegal doesn't do that. Taking away welfare doesn't do that. Taking away free birth control doesn't do that. 

BS (also most birth control mechanisms are abortifacient and therefore also constitute murder.)

Quote

What fact based policies are you supporting that lower abortion rates. If you aren't and don't have anything that has been proved to lower abortion rates, then you can get your hypocritical ass out of my uterus. 

I support the prosecution of murder (commonly called abortion) and the execution of convicted perpetrators.

4 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Gabe is willing to put the lives of women at risk, but isn't willing to personally help those in need. That pretty much sums up the conservative Christian right. 

And yet I give away more than 10% of my own after tax earnings to help provide for the poor in my community. Aren't you kind of arguing from a lack of evidence here?

Edited by Gabe

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Carm_88
4 minutes ago, Gabe said:

BS (also most birth control mechanisms are abortifacient and therefore also constitute murder.)

Do you know how birth control works? Do you think it causes spontaneous abortions? No a female's body won't release the egg because it tricks the body into thinking it's already pregnant. Therefore, no egg is released. So how can it be an abortion? You do need egg and sperm to make a baby right? 

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Gabe
6 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

Do you know how birth control works? Do you think it causes spontaneous abortions? No a female's body won't release the egg because it tricks the body into thinking it's already pregnant. Therefore, no egg is released. So how can it be an abortion? You do need egg and sperm to make a baby right? 

You are showing your own ignorance not revealing mine. I said "most" not all. I am specifically referring to the drugs that prevent implantation after fertilization or poison the developing child.

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