Douglas Wilson Rejects the Federal Vision, Shocks Followers

[frugaldreams]

1 hour ago, Anonymousguest said:

@frugaldreams divisiveness around food is a real issue in certain circles. It sounds ridiculous, but it's true. There's the whole messianic Jew fake Kosher thing, and organic "clean eating" being considered more Godly and Holy than processed food. All wrapped up with the Trim Healthy Mama craze (which marries those 2 ideas). I HATE people making food a spiritual issue. 

I totally get that. The religious foodies are rampant where I live. I just found it amusing/perplexing that because he thinks it's bad the best descriptor is Catholic and that he took 209+ pages to say it. Naturally his ego informs him that he is the best person to tell us all what we ought to be doing. <eye roll >

I would really like to read it for morbid curiosity but i don't want to give him any of my money.

[Anonymousguest]

7 minutes ago, frugaldreams said:

I totally get that. The religious foodies are rampant where I live. I just found it amusing/perplexing that because he thinks it's bad the best descriptor is Catholic and that he took 209+ pages to say it. Naturally his ego informs him that he is the best person to tell us all what we ought to be doing. <eye roll >

I would really like to read it for morbid curiosity but i don't want to give him any of my money.

I'm not sure what you mean by the bolded. I believe the definition of catholic he's going for is "universal", or all inclusive. Meaning it's ok to eat all things. But I could be way of base. I'm not smart enough to understand most things he writes. 

[refugee]

2 hours ago, ladyamylynn said:

From the description of the book:

(meant to copy the quote from the description, which was ungrammatical as all get-out, but it didn't get picked up)

Amazing. Typos in unreadable advertising copy. Great advertisement for a literary endeavor.

[frugaldreams]

@Anonymousguest that's probably because I didn't read very closely and just assumed it must be bad because I am overly ready to trash Doug Wilson.

Sorry. My mistake. But I still think he's a horse's ass.

[GenerationCedarchip]

Yes, the food judgment is huge. THM has gone fairly mainstream now but it's almost a staple in lots of fundie circles. GAPS diet, too.

I'll admit that I'm something of a foodie and I did do THM briefly to help with losing baby weight.  However, I wouldn't want to be judged for craving a hot fudge sundae sometimes and neither should you. The whole restrictive diet craze just seems like it could lead to all kinds of eating disorders. 

[MamaJunebug]

On 3/9/2017 at 6:34 PM, Anonymousguest said:

I'm not sure what you mean by the bolded. I believe the definition of catholic he's going for is "universal", or all inclusive. Meaning it's ok to eat all things. But I could be way of base. I'm not smart enough to understand most things he writes. 

No no no --- you're *very* smart: you realize what he writes is overblown hogwash. Dollar words to express dime ideas. 

I truly believe he realizes that most people only skim his nonsense, so he uses "catholic" to push buttons and regain readers' attention. 

~~~~

Just in case he's ever written about, oh y'know, God's love for us, thru Jesus? That's not a cheap idea. I don't mean to lump that in with all Wilson's evil, self-serving ideas. But I am not sure I ever remember him ever writing about that, so this was probably unnecessary. 

[refugee]

33 minutes ago, MamaJunebug said:

Dollar words to express dime ideas. 

Wonderful expression! I hadn't heard that one before.

Just the other day, my sister told me about one she'd heard, used in the same way we talk about "herding cats", and that was "putting dogs in a wheelbarrow". Great mental image. I've had dogs who wouldn't stand for it, dogs who would view the idea with deep suspicion, and dogs who would joyously leap into the wheelbarrow--and immediately leap out again.

[DomWackTroll]

Nate Wilson has a benign brain tumor and will be undergoing surgery on May 2. Sounds like he's having some pretty awful symptoms, and he says he will be left deaf in one ear. 

https://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/pleasant-blessings-hard-ones.html?platform=hootsuite

I hope his recovery will be swift and comfortable. 

[hoipolloi]

37 minutes ago, DomWackTroll said:

I hope his recovery will be swift and comfortable. 

+1.

When it comes to brain tumors, "benign" isn't exactly harmless. Had a friend with one that was recurring and it created real havoc for her in addition to multiple surgeries.

[DomWackTroll]

Looks like Nate is doing well after surgery. 

 

[DomWackTroll]

Update from Nate:

 

[Howl]

Fortunate man to have gone through that surgery with only the loss of hearing in that ear.  

[formerlegalist]

I know I am reviving a bit older thread as I've been away for a few months, but wanted to add my perspective to this thread.

First off, I will say that I consider myself to be somewhat of a proponent of so-called "Federal Vision". But before you all tar-and-feather me, let me also clarify that I soundly reject the patriarchy coming out of Moscow and the covering up of abuses and protecting of predators that has gone on there. If this is too long to read, here is a summary: Wilson is a jackass. The "Federal Vision" was never synonymous with his teaching. And finally, now that that is clear, he's whining about not being recognized as a central figure anymore.

So as I am sure most in this thread have read, the "Federal Vision" came out of a group of Reformed pastors and thinkers who had been discussing various reforms to Reformed doctrine, perhaps especially places where it had been affected by Enlightenment rationalism and individualism. Doug Wilson was one of these pastors, as was Peter Leithart, who for several years was a colleague of Wilson in Moscow.

To make a long story short, a sizable part of the Reformed theology world (especially in Westminster Theological Seminary-California and Reformed Theological Seminary camps) sounded warning alarms that the "Federal Vision" was undoing the Protestant Reformation and going back to Rome. Quite a few bloggers* set out to expose and condemn anyone who was even suspected of being sympathetic to the Federal Vision, ultimately succeeding in getting major Reformed denominations to issue condemnations. Note, though, that it was not things like patriarchy that were condemned, but rather alternative understandings of doctrines -- for example, like that church sacraments actually do something, or that it is not necessary to have first achieved a certain level of brain development in order to take communion.  I'm not trying to persuade anyone to accept "Federal Vision" ideas in this thread (such as consistent infant baptism and child communion as one example), but do want to emphasize that domineering patriarchy, permissiveness toward abusers, and general repression of women are not core tenets of this brand of doctrine.

                           (*Heidelblog, Green Baggins, Aquila Report, to name a few. These are NOT unbiased, objective sources.)
 
Wilson, perhaps largely due to his ego, and also due to his control of the printing press in Moscow, rose to the top and for several years was seen as the "top dog" in these circles. So for a lot of people, Wilson's teaching and "Federal Vision" ideas became linked.  BUT - there was always a contingent who signed on to "Federal Vision" for doctrinal reasons, never affirming Wilson's asshatery. They were probably more influenced by others like Leithart and James Jordan all along.

As to the CREC, yes, it has a dubious history, largely due to many years as "Wilson's denomination". So with Wilson as the figurehead, anything he stood for (including his bullshit ideas about slavery) more or less seeped through the CREC churches.

Things changed, though, when Peter Leithart left Moscow for Birmingham.  It soon became clear the two men had differences, and a "Moscow contingent" (very fundy, patriarchal, still covering up abuses, repressing women, etc.) and a "Birmingham contingent" (very theology-oriented, more of a doctrinal think-tank) emerged.

The "Birmingham contingent" has won, especially as a large part of the CREC has made efforts to distance itself from its Wilsonite past and instead become a denomination that attracts people who have left (or been kicked out of) the PCA, EPC, OPC, etc. for theological reasons. It is making efforts to distance itself from being seen as a denomination that is run by patriarchal men who think chattel slavery wasn't all that bad and once had "Confederation" in the denomination title, and instead be an overlapping yet distinct alternative to denominations like the PCA.  Birmingham now has the Theopolis Institute, which is already recognized in some Reformed academic circles in a way Wilson's New Saint Andrews and Greyfriars can only dream of.

So back to Wilson.  He's not the alpha dog anymore. And THAT is why he is "Federal Vision no more". He has to reassociate so that he can still be the top dog in his camp. He's not king anymore among people who pay attention to Leithart, Jordan, Lusk, etc. so he'll have nothing to do with them now.

Finally, I have put "Federal Vision" in quotes because it is not a label that proponents have ever really sought after to define themselves or group together, but instead has largely been applied by detractors as a means of painting with a broad brush and lumping people together to condemn as a group.

Hope this helps or at least adds another perspective to the thread...

[older than allosaurs]

Thanks for this. I read Doug's wall-o'-text about his separation from Federal Vision and couldn't figure out what he actually was on about. He sure loves the big words--it's always paedocommunion, never "we baptize babies."

I did notice that the CREC church and school down the street seems less egregious than the stuff coming out of Moscow, and you've explained why that might be.

 

[Howl]

3 hours ago, formerlegalist said:

So back to Wilson.  He's not the alpha dog anymore. And THAT is why he is "Federal Vision no more". He has to reassociate so that he can still be the top dog in his camp. He's not king anymore among people who pay attention to Leithart, Jordan, Lusk, etc. so he'll have nothing to do with them now.

So Doug Wilson is just sitting on top of his own dog house and barking at anything outside the fence?

Curious, given what you have written, that Peter Leithart is listed as President of Theopolis Institute and an adjunct Senior Fellow of Theology at New St. Andrews College, Moscow, Idaho on the Theopolis Web site.  I think his wife is still a practicing midwife in Moscow. 

[older than allosaurs]

For those who have followed the Southern Baptists' existential agonies about whether to disavow the alt-right, you might want to check out Doug's inevitable post on the topic. The comments tell you a lot about his followers.

[formerlegalist]

On ‎6‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 1:47 PM, Howl said:

So Doug Wilson is just sitting on top of his own dog house and barking at anything outside the fence?

Curious, given what you have written, that Peter Leithart is listed as President of Theopolis Institute and an adjunct Senior Fellow of Theology at New St. Andrews College, Moscow, Idaho on the Theopolis Web site.  I think his wife is still a practicing midwife in Moscow. 

Leithart's wife is now practicing in Alabama - if you check her website it's been updated for Alabama information versus Idaho. As to being an "adjunct Senior Fellow of Theology"... that is interesting, but I wonder if it is more honorary or if he does still get invited back to teach.  Or if the ongoing drama has that in more of a state of flux as things continue to develop.  

And as far as "So Doug Wilson is just sitting on top of his own dog house and barking at anything outside the fence?"   ...Yeah, that sounds about right.  But is that anything new for him?

[Howl]

  

10 hours ago, older than allosaurs said:

For those who have followed the Southern Baptists' existential agonies about whether to disavow the alt-right, you might want to check out Doug's inevitable post on the topic. The comments tell you a lot about his followers.

I haven't followed this, but your paragraph speaks volumes.  I wandered over for a Blog and Mablog drive by, but simply couldn't engage with all the erudite cleverness on display mindless twiddle twaddle on the topic. 

@formerlegalist, thank you for that update on the Leitharts.  Glad that Wilson hasn't put another marriage asunder with his endless maneuvering. 

[older than allosaurs]

Doug has published his 21 Theses on Submission in Marriage, one of which is "submission is an erotic necessity."

Discuss?

...and on a side note, Lori Anderson can only dream about getting 300+ comments on her submission screeds.

 

[nickelodeon]

2 hours ago, older than allosaurs said:

Discuss?

Doug Wilson is obsessed with rape fantasies and the dom/sub kink, though he'd never admit it. (See passages on the subject from his book Fidelity.) Like many a cult leader before him, he's making his particular sexual fixation into religious dogma.

[Anonymousguest]

I read this, and as usual I don't quite understand what he's talking about. I'm college educated, consider myself fairly intelligent, but I have so much trouble making sense of anything he says. 

15.Submission is an erotic necessity. The abandonment of this basic marital responsibility is the cause of much unhappiness, and has also been a cause of the resultant pursuit of erotic delusions offered by multiple partners or by various perversions.

Huh? If the woman isn't submissive someone (presumably the man) is going to commit adultery and have sexual perversions? The biblical support for this is what? 

I can't tell if he's meaning if the wife withholds sex. That doesn't appear to be what he means with his particular word choice and syntax. But even if that is what he meant, #11 says

The Bible does not teach husbands to enforce the requirement that was given to their wives. Since true submission is a matter of the heart, rendered by grace through faith, a husband does not have the capacity to make this happen. His first task is therefore to love his wife as Christ loved the church. He is to lead by example.

I so if there is a lack of submission regarding sex, a man is no longer bound to love his wife as Christ loves the Church?

[uber frau]

8 hours ago, Anonymousguest said:

I read this, and as usual I don't quite understand what he's talking about. I'm college educated, consider myself fairly intelligent, but I have so much trouble making sense of anything he says. 

 

That would be because he's full of shit.  I say that as a fellow college educated individual, bathed in the KoolAid of Reformed 'thought' since birth, and fluent in Fundy in two languages. (Unfortunately,I have too many X chromosomes to get to have an opinion but you can't have everything).

[older than allosaurs]

So a panel of CREC pastors has finally produced its report on how the Christ Church and Trinity Church handled the cases of Jamin Wight, the sexual predator and wife abuser, and Steven Sitler, the serial pedophile.

Among other recommendations they suggest that Doug stop snarking about abuse victims, especially ones he has counseled personally, and women in general in his blog. They think it's embarrassing when he goes on about "small-breasted biddies" and "lumberjack dykes." He has yet to respond online but it's hard to imagine he can hold out long, even with Confederate statue protection to eat up his time.

You can read the reports on The Truth About Moscow.

[Howl]

The Truth About Moscow web site (moscowID.net) is tearing it up.  http://www.moscowid.net/2017/08/24/the-presiding-ministers-report-i-crooked-images-in-a-black-hole/

Quote

There is only one reason for Christ Church to create its own pdf rather than use the original: Someone wanted to block search engines from indexing the text. There are about a dozen ways to block search engines from seeing certain text on a website — all but one of them leave fingerprints. And fingerprints show intent. There’s only one way to block search engines from seeing certain text on a website without leaving fingerprints and simultaneously claim ignorance: Convert the text into images, which is exactly what Christ Church did.

Search engines such as Bing, Google, Yahoo! etc., cannot read words on an image. When they see an image on a website, they essentially ignore it. Therefore, Christ Church converted the Presiding Ministers’ Report into 60 images and combined them into one pdf to block search engines from reading it.

MoscowID.net has a now put up the CREC report and a secondary report as searchable pdfs.  

[hoipolloi]

Thanks, @Howl - here's a direct link to the reconstituted, searchable PDFs of these reports.

Just when you think Doug Wilson can't possibly be a bigger fuckwad than he already is...