Tabitha Paine & Tim Robertson Engagement (includes sexual assault discussion)

[JillyO]

Why the fuck are you even discussing the effectiveness of Sex Offender Registries on this thread? This is not a case where someone was wrongfully put on a sex offender registry. It is also not a case where someone who should be on the the SOR isn't. It is a case where the SOR is doing just what it's intended to do: Informing people about Tim Robertson's history of anally raping a passed-out woman. He's not innocent, he actually committed the crime, and he was put on the sex offender registry for it. I truly fail to see what you are even trying to argue here, unless you really are just trying to deflect. So just for good measure, I'll repeat it again: Tim Robertson anally raped a women who (presumably, as her roommate) trusted him, while she was unconscious.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

40 minutes ago, Snarkle Motion said:

So you really believe that first time offenders looked into laws about sex registration before offending? That that was the difference between places with sex offender registries and without? Or that maybe putting people on a registry actually scared juries or judges into feeling bad and not convincting or reducing sentences? I know that the idea of someone being labeled a sex offender forever, even when they should, be scares juries and judges and this can have unintended consequences. It's more complicated and complex an issue than it seems.  My point is that I'm not sure registries are helpful. They are mostly for reassuring the public but not necessarily effective.

That's not what I said. Those are the conclusions of the papers quoted in the Jezebel article that YOU provided. I merely pointed out that the research doesn't actually say what you think it says.

Until now you have talked about different issues unrelated to the case in point and provided a source that doesn't support your opinion. Can you understand that we think that you are deflecting from the topic at hand? If your perspective is colored by your experience and you are eager to talk about it please do, I'd read with utmost interest if you start a thread. 

[Snarkle Motion]

On February 3, 2017 at 6:57 PM, Lurky said:

If Kinphilly was really all about explaining the truth about the Sex Offenders Registry, they would have included explanations of the vast majority of people on it who are there for sex crimes. 

Whenever someone only focuses on the very rare outlier cases, and does that next to something like Kinphilly's direct quote of "it sounds like he assaulted someone BUT...", about a case where the person we're talking about pleaded guilty to a serious sexual assault, I think it's fair make assumptions about their attitude.

I mean, I would also fight back if Kinphilly had replied to that question by saying something like "it sounds like he assaulted someone BUT I just wanted to point out that technically someone like the villain in the Silence of the Lambs or Jack the Ripper could end up on a registry" as an example of why everyone on it should be locked up for life or something, because of course the Registry contains a spectrum of crimes.  But the fact someone only talks about one end of the spectrum is super-unhelpful, and should be called out.  

 

19 hours ago, kinphilly said:

YES!   That's what I was trying to point out.    Even if it's just 1 in 1,000 that is on the registry for something OTHER than a rape or abuse type thing, we just need to be aware to look into particulars of a case.      Statutory rape of a 40 year old and a 16 year old is a crime, in my opinion.    But between two dating highschoolers is just not the same thing.   (or two dating college students if you have a 17 year old as a college freshman ...)

I was continuing discussion from here. My comments were not out of nowhere but I could see how someone could read them as insensitive without context. Here are my points.

1. Tim is a creep and a rapist and I have no sympathy

2. In general I think SOR is a flawed system. 

People get on it who shouldn't and then others who don't get on despite multiple offendes, just no convictions. And because juries are less likely to prosecute or convict for fear of ruining someone's life, it may actually cause damage in that less sex crimes are being pursued. And furthermore it's not shown to be particularly effective for rehabilitation and preventing recidivism. 

I get that my points were sloppily made. It's something that I think should be open for discussion but is such a hot topic I don't think anyone seriously questions it efficacy or how it can be improved and whether public registries make sense and under what circumstances. 

[Carm_88]

I don't think that the SOR, flawed or not, is worth talking about here. Tim Robertson anally raped his roommate. The issue is that he is marrying a sheltered SAHD and that the cult is letting this happen because men can repent. It doesn't matter what Tim did because to them it was the fault of his victim. The issue is that this is all too common and it's why people who have been victims of sexual assault have such a hard time coming forward. We need to stop blaming the victim and blaming the system, outliers happen. For the most part, it is just disgusting human beings who have no respect for the people around them, especially the person they are assaulting. Focus on the fact that Tim is disgusting, Dr. Paine is a massive dickhead, and all of that. Tim Robertson is not an outlier, he's a rapist.  

[SweetFellowshipper]

20 hours ago, JesusCampSongs said:

I agree with the above posters re: repentant vs. unrepentant sex offenders. 

I would also like to point out that I, in my professional capacity (clinical social worker w/a specialty in treating sexually victimized teenagers), have literally never encountered someone who was on the sex offender registry due to public urination or a normal high school relationship. My professional capacity includes a stint in the local county jail wherein I spent over a month digging through the files of literally every sex offender in my county (population: almost 250,000) and did not come across one single person falling into either one of those categories. And I would have known: public registries clearly show what the charges associated with the individual were. 

I did, however, come across multiple individuals who had, upon further research that was not available to the public, committed significantly worse crimes than what they'd actually pleaded guilty to. It is really, really common for people who have committed sex crimes against minors to be offered plea deals so as to not retraumatize the child by forcing them to testify in court (often while facing whoever assaulted them), meaning that individuals who had committed full-on violent rape would only have an "indecent liberties with a minor" charge on their records. 

As a result of that fun and exciting research project, I tend to have the view that, when it comes to convicted sex offenders who pleaded guilty (as opposed to going to trial), the story of what really happened is nearly always a lot worse than what their records show. I am therefore extremely suspicious of Mr. Robertson's accounting of events. 

I 100% believe you, but I have worked with someone who was on it for hiring adult sex workers, which I find pretty ridiculous. What is that supposed to let the public know...That if you're a sex worker, he may try to hire you? Lol. I guess it could have been something else, but I looked up his charges and that's all he had, and that was a registerable sex offense in my state, so I'm inclined to believe it. I imagine that's pretty rare, but it is on the books in some states. 

Another thing I found ridiculous while checking out sex offense laws in various states was that marital rape gets a lesser punishment than, I guess, "stranger rape" or date rape in many places. Wtf, disgusting.

@Snarkle Motion, for what it's worth, I agree with you in questioning whether and when it's effective, and I also believe there is likely a racist and classist element to who actually ends up on the registry and who doesn't, because, well, America. 

I also understand that doesn't apply at all in this case. This dude is a fucking rapist, period (which I know you didn't disagree with), so I understand the pushback to that topic in this context. 

What I don't understand, and I know others have brought this up, is how the supposed "protection" not dating on your own is supposed to give you can fail SO badly. I dated, slept around, had a bunch of ill fated relationships, didn't ask my dad for a damn word of dating advice, had multiple jobs outside the home, and somehow managed to get married to someone who is neither a rapist nor a child molester. How the fuck are all of these women marrying sex offenders when the whole goal is supposedly to protect them from the world's evils? So apparently, having a credit card or some debt is an absolute laughable no go, but being A RAPIST is fine and dandy?!?!?!?!!?!

Sorry for the rant, I just really can't stand the cognitive dissonance. I'd drown in it personally. 

[Snarkle Motion]

1 hour ago, SweetFellowshipper said:

I 100% believe you, but I have worked with someone who was on it for hiring adult sex workers, which I find pretty ridiculous. What is that supposed to let the public know...That if you're a sex worker, he may try to hire you? Lol. I guess it could have been something else, but I looked up his charges and that's all he had, and that was a registerable sex offense in my state, so I'm inclined to believe it. I imagine that's pretty rare, but it is on the books in some states. 

Another thing I found ridiculous while checking out sex offense laws in various states was that marital rape gets a lesser punishment than, I guess, "stranger rape" or date rape in many places. Wtf, disgusting.

@Snarkle Motion, for what it's worth, I agree with you in questioning whether and when it's effective, and I also believe there is likely a racist and classist element to who actually ends up on the registry and who doesn't, because, well, America. 

I also understand that doesn't apply at all in this case. This dude is a fucking rapist, period (which I know you didn't disagree with), so I understand the pushback to that topic in this context. 

What I don't understand, and I know others have brought this up, is how the supposed "protection" not dating on your own is supposed to give you can fail SO badly. I dated, slept around, had a bunch of ill fated relationships, didn't ask my dad for a damn word of dating advice, had multiple jobs outside the home, and somehow managed to get married to someone who is neither a rapist nor a child molester. How the fuck are all of these women marrying sex offenders when the whole goal is supposedly to protect them from the world's evils? So apparently, having a credit card or some debt is an absolute laughable no go, but being A RAPIST is fine and dandy?!?!?!?!!?!

Sorry for the rant, I just really can't stand the cognitive dissonance. I'd drown in it personally. 

Thank you for understanding my points and not completely dismissing me. This clearly wasn't the best place for my arguments and I'm typing from my phone so I don't  always give nuanced responses with research the way I should. I thought my discussion was relevant thread drift but I didn't mean to imply in anyway I was apologizing or excusing Tim. Sorry to all for derailing the topic. 

[FleeJanaFree]

Is their registry still up?

[AmazonGrace]

1 hour ago, FleeJanaFree said:

Is their registry still up?

Yes, they want brushed nickel ball shower curtain hooks, a large head nylon flexible turner and a Chili-Chili silicone oven mitt.

https://registry.theknot.com/tabitha-paine-tim-robertson-april-2017/17573962

[JillyO]

Interesting. Is it normal that literally nothing has been bought? The registry has been up for quite a few weeks. I'm hoping this means that people in their circles aren't too big on their wedding either.

I know, I know. A girl can dream. I'm sure in reality, they just haven't given out the link yet or something.

[Gobsmacked]

6 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

I don't think that the SOR, flawed or not, is worth talking about here. Tim Robertson anally raped his roommate. The issue is that he is marrying a sheltered SAHD and that the cult is letting this happen because men can repent. It doesn't matter what Tim did because to them it was the fault of his victim. The issue is that this is all too common and it's why people who have been victims of sexual assault have such a hard time coming forward. We need to stop blaming the victim and blaming the system, outliers happen. For the most part, it is just disgusting human beings who have no respect for the people around them, especially the person they are assaulting. Focus on the fact that Tim is disgusting, Dr. Paine is a massive dickhead, and all of that. Tim Robertson is not an outlier, he's a rapist.  

Very well put. Sending you lots of likes.

[Queen Of Hearts]

1 hour ago, JillyO said:

Interesting. Is it normal that literally nothing has been bought? The registry has been up for quite a few weeks. I'm hoping this means that people in their circles aren't too big on their wedding either.

I know, I know. A girl can dream. I'm sure in reality, they just haven't given out the link yet or something.

I was just coming here to ask the same question.  Since she took her Facebook page down I keep hoping that maybe it is a sign that the engagement has been called off.  I see only one item has been bought from her registry.   How far in advance do fundies send out wedding invites?  I'm thinking that if the registry stays static that is a good sign.

[ViolaSebastian]

2 minutes ago, Queen Of Hearts said:

I was just coming here to ask the same question.  Since she took her Facebook page down I keep hoping that maybe it is a sign that the engagement has been called off.  I see only one item has been bought from her registry.   How far in advance do fundies send out wedding invites?  I'm thinking that if the registry stays static that is a good sign.

It is (was?) on April 1 and etiquette suggests four to six weeks, FWIW. 

[socalrules]

Do fundies buy off of the registry? I keep remembering Jill Rodrigues making someone a rug or blanket or something like that for their wedding. I think we are use to a Duggar registry being sold out and forget that Tabitha is just a regular fundy who doesn't have viewers to waste money on her. Or, people may just buy gifts at the last minute. 

[snarkopolis]

15 hours ago, Snarkle Motion said:

Woah, I wasn't trying to defend him. If you look at my past posts I've been critical of him from the start.

I do not defend rapists. My point was purely that the sex offender registry is not an effective system for actually preventing sexual abuse. I'm not crying crocodile tears over the people on it who deserve it. It's actually that I think so many people who need to be on it are not on it that it's pretty much arbitrary. Believe me I know plenty of people who are not on it who should be on it 

i finally found the article that actually swayed my thinking from Jezebel awhile back discussing how data suggests registries are actually counter productive. 

http://jezebel.com/5836093/sex-offender-registries-may-not-be-very-effective

Maybe it's that I know people who should be on it and are not, but it's my thought that this list makes us feel safe when the majority of sex offenders, rapists, and child abusers will never be on this list because they won't be caught. So we are led to possibly believe that someone on the list is a threat when it's the people not on the list that are potentially more threatening. But I may also be letting personal experiences/perspectives bias me. 

Once again, bolded part is mine. A sex offender registry IS NOT to prevent abuse. It is a list of assholes for you to check to make sure you are not inviting said assholes into your circle. It is a way to check out that voice in your head which is telling you that your sister/aunt/best friend's new boyfriend is creepy and you aren't sure why.

In my state peeing in public is a city ordinance (lower than a misdemeanor) unless you are doing it in a schoolyard at recess. Only pervs of varying degrees get put on the list and tier is dependent on the crime.

Your whole never be caught/won't be safe argument is bull. Stop defending rapists. Really, just stop.

[singsingsing]

22 minutes ago, snarkopolis said:

Once again, bolded part is mine. A sex offender registry IS NOT to prevent abuse. It is a list of assholes for you to check to make sure you are not inviting said assholes into your circle. It is a way to check out that voice in your head which is telling you that your sister/aunt/best friend's new boyfriend is creepy and you aren't sure why.

In my state peeing in public is a city ordinance (lower than a misdemeanor) unless you are doing it in a schoolyard at recess. Only pervs of varying degrees get put on the list and tier is dependent on the crime.

Your whole never be caught/won't be safe argument is bull. Stop defending rapists. Really, just stop.

Where I'm from, the sex offender registry is not public and is most definitely used (by the police) to prevent abuse. But I'm not from the U.S. Are all sex offender registries across the U.S. accessible to the public, or only in certain jurisdictions?

For what it's worth, I think some of the concerns @Snarkle Motion is raising about the sex offender registry are reasonable. It's not black or white, one or the other - there are pros and cons to having it public and to having it private. There are people on it who probably shouldn't be, and many, many more people who aren't on it who absolutely should be. I do think that it can create a false sense of security and, paradoxically, a false sense of paranoia. It's a pretty big leap from arguing that the sex offender registry is imperfect to defending rapists, though, and that's not a leap I've personally seen anyone here make.

I actually think we're all in agreement: this is a truly shitty situation, it's awful for Tabitha, and it's yet another glaring example of what FJ exists to discuss, the damage caused by fundamentalism. This topic should probably be required reading for anyone who starts getting too enamored with 'so cute and fun' Bateses.

[choralcrusader8613]

Just now, singsingsing said:

Where I'm from, the sex offender registry is not public and is most definitely used (by the police) to prevent abuse. But I'm not from the U.S. Are all sex offender registries across the U.S. accessible to the public, or only in certain jurisdictions?

I'm pretty sure all 50 states have a public sex offender registry. You can see the charges, when they committed them, where they currently live (if they've made good on their word and kept updating the info), and other pertinent stuff.

[fundiefan]

My ex husbsnd's best friend hooked up with his wife's 14 year old student while we were all chaperoning a school trip to Europe. The hell of that situation can not be imagined. The wife actually got pregnant on that trip. She also still had to teach the student for 2 more years. It's far too convoluted to get into but he essentially got away with it & he & his child girlfriend are now married with a 3 year old. My ex was their best man. They also have shared custody of the daughter conceived on that trip with his ex wife. They play happy family and are surrounded by people who choose to ignore him having been a 32 year old married man who was supposed to chaperone & protect his wife's students but hooked up with one instead.

The situation made me sick, physically & emotionally. My ex & I had countless fights about my apparent "attitude". He actually thought I was being a bitch when I wouldn't go out with the happy couple for her birthday. 

Ultimately, that situation was one of the last straws in admitting the death of my own marriage. No part of me could understand not only the acceptance, but the defense to the point where I became the villian. It was so fucking twisted. I couldn't be with a man who found any of it normal.

And, my point with that is...it's not shock or self preservation in all cases of acceptance / denial. Some people-and it seems fundies are leaders - can't or won't see a problem in the first place. They normalize fucked up men and sexual misconduct to such an extent that they really do belive those not accepting are the wrong ones and the problem.

[SweetFellowshipper]

42 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Where I'm from, the sex offender registry is not public and is most definitely used (by the police) to prevent abuse. But I'm not from the U.S. Are all sex offender registries across the U.S. accessible to the public, or only in certain jurisdictions?

For what it's worth, I think some of the concerns @Snarkle Motion is raising about the sex offender registry are reasonable. It's not black or white, one or the other - there are pros and cons to having it public and to having it private. There are people on it who probably shouldn't be, and many, many more people who aren't on it who absolutely should be. I do think that it can create a false sense of security and, paradoxically, a false sense of paranoia. It's a pretty big leap from arguing that the sex offender registry is imperfect to defending rapists, though, and that's not a leap I've personally seen anyone here make.

I actually think we're all in agreement: this is a truly shitty situation, it's awful for Tabitha, and it's yet another glaring example of what FJ exists to discuss, the damage caused by fundamentalism. This topic should probably be required reading for anyone who starts getting too enamored with 'so cute and fun' Bateses.

Yeah, saying that critiquing the sex offender registry or any aspect of the criminal justice system, which people do all the time = defending rapists/rapist apologism is pretty extreme and untrue IMO. (This topic is debated and reworked constantly, in legislation and in discussions about recidivism and rape culture). I didn't see anyone actually doing that (being a rape apologist), though the topic probably shouldn't have been broached in this context because of the implications. We talk about heavy things here. There's no one right way to discuss something as heavy as rape and sex offender registries. 

[feministxtian]

NOT A SINGLE ONE of my attackers ever made it onto an offender list...

I don't give a shit about lists, offender lists, improper information or any of that other crap...a rapist is a rapist is a rapist. DO NOT try to excuse the behavior, make excuses for the behavior or any of that other shit...

[eveandadam]

Wow, this is officially the new low in fundieland. When I first saw his picture I got chills down my spine, now I know why.

And the worst thing: Tabitha could be consenting in doing this because she is afraid of ending an old maid, at 31/32.

I sincerely hope that Jana doesn't see this as a good possibility to get a husband, or as her duty if she doesn't want to end an old maid.

 

Question: is there a cult somewhere that women who have sinned heavily can get into, be forgiven because they are women and not men, and get the perfect meek husband in the end?

It angers me so much that men like him are constantly being rewarded with the perfect wife, more money, a higher status and everything else because they are criminals and/or behave like psychopaths. Fundieland sure is haven for "special" men like him.

 

 

[infooverload]

Wow, this is officially the new low in fundieland. When I first saw his picture I got chills down my spine, now I know why.
And the worst thing: Tabitha could be consenting in doing this because she is afraid of ending an old maid, at 31/32.
I sincerely hope that Jana doesn't see this as a good possibility to get a husband, or as her duty if she doesn't want to end an old maid.
 
Question: is there a cult somewhere that women who have sinned heavily can get into, be forgiven because they are women and not men, and get the perfect meek husband in the end?
It angers me so much that men like him are constantly being rewarded with the perfect wife, more money, a higher status and everything else because they are criminals and/or behave like psychopaths. Fundieland sure is haven for "special" men like him.
 
 

The whole men being reprehensible human beings than being rewarded happens in the Bible. I mean with Abraham and Sarah he pimps out his wife a couple times and tricks the King out of land. The King is all get the hell out, but he still retains the land. Basically he lies and cheats, yet faces no consequences. When you think of Biblical accounts such as these then look at the behavior of some Christian's it's interesting.

[ladyamylynn]

Every fucking thread about sex offenders, someone just HAS to bring up the public urination thing. The vast, overwhelming majority of people on the list are there for completely legitimate reasons, (they RAPED someone) and yet someone always tries to de-legitimize the concept. Won't someone please think of the poor sweet 19-year old boys who just happened to rape a 17 year old.  Give me a fucking break.  This guy anally raped an unconscious woman.  Yet seemingly sane people, some of whom are presumably women, rush to equivocate. Rape culture in action ladies and gentlemen.

[SweetFellowshipper]

1 hour ago, ladyamylynn said:

Every fucking thread about sex offenders, someone just HAS to bring up the public urination thing. The vast, overwhelming majority of people on the list are there for completely legitimate reasons, (they RAPED someone) and yet someone always tries to de-legitimize the concept. Won't someone please think of the poor sweet 19-year old boys who just happened to rape a 17 year old.  Give me a fucking break.  This guy anally raped an unconscious woman.  Yet seemingly sane people, some of whom are presumably women, rush to equivocate. Rape culture in action ladies and gentlemen.

I agree with this in general (and I wasn't the one who brought it up, I'm just thinking it through having read through the thread), and I'm a survivor of multiple rapes and sexual assaults myself. However, to me, the fact that things like relationships between teenagers (sometimes used to punish gay teens), taking nude selfies of oneself, being or consensually hiring a sex worker, running a sex work business, and, yes, public urination, are on there, I think deserves to be discussed and critiqued, and undermines the reliability of the registry as a whole in some cases. As a survivor myself I really don't want sex negativity and anti sex work BS thrown in with actual rapes like the ones I experienced. They aren't comparable. However, I absolutely agree that this wasn't the place for it and it doesn't need to be brought up every time the registry is at all mentioned. It smacks of undermining even though I don't believe that was anyone's intent. Also, it's pretty much just off topic. This dude was/is a fucking rapist. 

[Carm_88]

I'm still disgusted that Tim thought that he could give his story and people would be, I don't know sorry for him? I know all these men are fucked up but seriously? You're not being persecuted, you raped your roommate! 

[choralcrusader8613]

But he's washed in the blood of the Lamb, y'all, redeemed and renewed!/sarcasm

Gag me.