Dillards 24 - Smug Bible Tweets and Maneaters (Jill/Derick/Israel/Baby Dillard)

[Snarkle Motion]

44 minutes ago, luxfilia said:

But I think GWTW is more glorified in the north than in the south, TBH.

Yeah no. It's still playing in a theater in the south. I'd don't know that many northerners who've seen the movie and no one I know has read the book. 

I will admit that northerners can be condescending toward southerners. But we absolutely don't glorify the antebellum south, at least not where I'm from.

[Glasgowghirl]

23 hours ago, Snarkle Motion said:

Yeah, she kind of lost me at Northern Aggression too. Like I'm sure atrocities were committed on both sides as they always are in any war but let's not forget the many atrocities that had were committed while slavery was an institution (and would have continued to be committed) and that the south could have completely avoided the war. 

Ive never read the book so can't really comment on it. I'm a northerner who has a weird curiosity about southern culture and its appeal. 

Rhett always felt like the North to me because he's constantly trying win over someone who wants nothing to do with him, despite them being meant to be together. 

I can't remember where I read it but that Margaret Mitchell was actually making fun of the society but that a lot of this was overlooked or missed. Not sure if this is true or not. 

It reminds me of this super snobby New England club that throws an annual Gatsby party. Like these people are all really terrible people (except Nick, and maybe Gatsby who is misguided more than anything) and the author was making fun of them, not glorifying them.

 

I hated the Great Gatsby when I had to do it for Higher English in my last year of high school. I failed English that was the one book in 6 years of high school I just couldn't get into. I went back to redo my a Higher's at college last year and was glad I didn't have to do The Great Gatsby again.

[Coy Koi]

21 minutes ago, Snarkle Motion said:

I will admit that northerners can be condescending toward southerners. But we absolutely don't glorify the antebellum south, at least not where I'm from.

Same here. I don't recall hearing anything like that IRL ever, from anyone. Annoying 1950s nostalgia? Sure. Glorification of the antebellum south? Wtf? That would honestly shock me. And I have plenty of racist relatives. But not that kind of racist.

[kjmackin]

I was obsess with the book & movie for GWTW between eigth & nineth grade. Watched the movie often, listened to the soundtrack, read the biography of Clark Gable, Viven Leigh, O'Selenzik, & Flemming. Including reading the sequel Scarlett & renting the VHS types so that I could see it that mini series. And when ever I visit old book stores, flea markets, garage sales I look for different editions even got lucky to find a 9th printing of the same year published copy. I also was not forced to read it but did it for fun. If I had a son for some odd reason I wanted to name him Ashley or Leslie.

While these days I don't think GWTW is worshipped in the way it once was. And Probably most people would not know who Scarlett O'Hara is. I do think we are reverting back to a society the idolize things of the past because most are afraid of what happening around us. This election proved that there is enough scared of change putting blame on those who are different like gays or refugees because they think that are the ones who bring the bad things onto them.

 

[PennySycamore]

Someone asked what Southerners  might appreciate about their culture even if they abhor our history.  I appreciate Southern literature, Southern cooking, and some Southern music.  Blues, jazz and rock and roll owe their existence and vibrancy to their Southern and especially to their black roots.  Southern food would not be the same without the contributions of black cooks.  

I could do without much of Southern politics although I love Rep, John Lewis and Rep Jim Clyburn and former President Jimmy Carter.  I also find the South to be oppressive to those of us who aren't religious.  And I don't like the weather.  Or bugs.

Now I do like other parts of the country.  New England, the Midwest, the Great Plains, the Rockies and the Intermountain West, and the West Coast all have their great points and their own culture.  

[TakingBibleClasses]

12 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

the Lost Cause ideology blends a white Southern exceptionalism, conservative Christianity

This was a really helpful post; thanks!

Re: "The Civil War was about states' rights, not about slavery": this is what I learned in my high school history classes, and I'm wondering if it might have some value within a northern context that tends to cast itself as the non-racist, righteous hero.

I could be wrong, but hear me out. I grew up in Southern California. Not itself the North, obviously, but they're the side with which we were taught to empathize. In elementary school we were presented with a grand "white savior" narrative in which non-racist white northerners valiantly fought for the rights of slaves - and nothing else. No self-interest was involved; the North were just good folks who wanted to save black people.

High school history classes introduced the states'-rights angle to correct this narrative in a way that made the North more morally ambiguous - and didn't get us white "Northerners" (or northern sympathizers) off the hook for racism. For the North, the war wasn't (exclusively) about slavery: the North wasn't just trying to free slaves; it was protecting its economic and political interests; it didn't want to lose the South's resources. Sure, the moral balance of the war favors the North. That doesn't mean we were some grand bastion of altruism. That doesn't mean we successfully avoided complicity in racism.

I have since moved to the South, where lots of things are different (to put it mildly). (I literally didn't know until high school that there were still people alive who idealized the Confederacy. In my "Northern" mind that would have been tantamount to supporting Nazi Germany.) So now, living somewhat shocked in the South, I completely understand that attempts to frame the Civil War as a war about states' rights are usually repugnant attempts to distance the South from racism.

But could it still be helpful in the North/"North"? Not framed as some bold and noble quest for sovereign Southern states to be "free," but as a war the North might not have fought had it not a vested interest in limiting the autonomy of states in a way that economically and politically favored the North? Genuine questions.

--------------------

ETA: I'm just now realizing that contemporary usage of the phrase "states' rights" probably intends to evoke resonances of something like "civil rights," i.e. that the South was just defending its freedom. I think that's total BS, and utter hypocrisy for a slave-holding society to argue. I'm using the term in a more morally neutral way, to describe one of two competing political ideologies regarding how American governmental authority should work: should it be concentrated in a strong federal government, or distributed among individual states? I was taught that it was politically and economically expedient for the North to favor the first model, which meant going to war with the South, who favored the second.

[ChickenettiLuvr]

I realize I'm a latecomer to the Gone With the Wind discussion... but here lies my dos pesos' worth:

As a Yankee girl dropped into the Deep Old South for college, I was bewildered by the portion of Freshman Orientation that "politely" informed us Yankees and/or folks of color where not to go in the metro area. (True Story, sadly.)

Imagine my further confusion when told that many of the good southern folk were "unaware" that You-Know-Who marched through You-Know-Where and ... well ... you know the story.

The mysterious phenomenon continued through my first two places of employment after graduation... having to answer:  "Who is your daddy?" and "Who are your mama's people?"

To this day, I've yet to be able to sit through the entirety of GWTW. (*ducks for cover north of the Mason-Dixon Line*)

[SilverBeach]

Lincoln's mission was to preserve the union, nothing more and nothing less. He said that if retaining slavery would have helped meet this objective, that's what he would have done. Slavery was not what the civil war was about. I don't think preserving the union favored the North, economically or politically. The South did not recognize it's reliance on Northern industry. The ultimate preservation of the union benefitted white citizens, as former slaves were no better off after the war. I could go on and on, but it's bedtime. 

[Kittikatz]

12 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

Here's that verbose post I said I wasn't going to write. Regardless of what actually happened during the Civil War, the South won. It may have lost the war itself, but the won the much larger battle over interpretation by making the Confederates seem like well-intentioned patriots in the service of a "Lost Cause." What I call the "plantation movie industrial complex" couldn't have gone on as long as it did without support from white Americans from all regions of the country.

As you can see, the Lost Cause ideology blends a white Southern exceptionalism, conservative Christianity, and racism to explain and justify the Jim Crow regime. Make no mistake about it, Margaret Mitchell was a true believer in the Lost Cause, even though she considered herself a liberal; Gone With the Wind itself was written as a rejoinder to Uncle Tom's Cabin, which Mitchell felt misrepresented what she felt was the reality of Southern slavery. I've read in some sources that Mitchell disliked Jim Crow and didn't like the fact that the black stars of Gone With the Wind were barred from attending the Atlanta premiere. If we assume this is true, it illustrates the wilful blindness of Southern liberals at the time, because Mitchell was unable to connect the dots between how the Lost Cause that she championed in her book was used to justify the system of discrimination that she claimed to despise.

Scarlett O'Hara herself is an embodiment of everything that is wrong with so-called "white feminism." The only reason that Scarlett was able to be the empowered badass that she was after the war is because she had a bunch of slaves/servants to do her grunt work for her.This is particularly true of Mammy, who is described in the book as, "shining black, pure African, devoted to her last drop of blood to the O'Haras,.." Mammy has no family, no friends, and no inner life to speak of. She is essentially a part of the scenery at Tara, like the trees or the farming equipment. In fact, Mammy's virtues are precisely the fact that she doesn't have any desire for an independent life, because that's what "bad darkies" do. Scarlett may love Mammy, but its the same kind of love one might have for a devoted dog, not for a fellow human being deserving of rights and equality. Mammy was Ellen O'Hara's slave, she was Scarlett's slave, and she continued into this role with Scarlett's children; she's practically a family heirloom with a pulse. The movie somewhat obscures this, because Hattie McDaniel's Mammy is more like Scarlett's Sassy Black Friend, but even so, Mammy is never portrayed as having any independent existence apart from what the O'Haras want her to be.

Let's also not forget that Gone With the Wind glamorizes the Klan in the scene as "freedom fighters" for white Southerners, especially when Ashley, Rhett, and Frank Kennedy go out lynching after Scarlett is attacked in the shanty town. The "purity" of white women like Scarlett must be preserved at all costs, while black women like Mammy (who in real life would have had several "mulatto" children by Gerald O'Hara) are expendable commodities. The Klan that Gone With the Wind valorizes was disenfranchising black voters, burning down black schools and churches, and lynching "uppity blacks." Yet, we're supposed to be cheering on the male characters for their "Klan curiosity"? No thanks.

The fact is that no black movie or book is ever going to dethrone Gone With the Wind from its place in pop culture, no matter how good it is. Not only is the viewing audience more fragmented today than it was in 1939, but the average movie goer doesn't want to see a movie that's going to make them feel bad about themselves or their history, which is going to happen if you take the black history perspective, rather than the Lost Cause view. If you want to see a movie about slavery that from a completely black perspective, watch Haile Gerima's "Sankofa"

I tried to cut down the quote, but it is so much spot on that I couldn't figure out what to cut.

Thank-you for saying this. I wish I could like it a thousand times. It encapsulates why I have always loathed the many books and movies that sanitize the antebellum South. While I am sure there were many good people in the pre-civil war south, the mainstream media completely neglects the reality experienced by the many oppressed and abused Native Americans, Slaves, women and anyone else who happened to be poor/disenfranchised or without economic influence.

The writing in GWTW was good, but the Scarlett character and the whitewashing just killed it for me. I do wonder what a book featuring that world from Mammy's perspective or with Mammy as the protagonist would have been like? 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

58 minutes ago, Kittikatz said:

snipped

I do wonder what a book featuring that world from Mammy's perspective or with Mammy as the protagonist would have been like? 

I would definitely read a book like that, assuming it was well written.

[SadieJane]

1 hour ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

 

Someone needs to write this book, because I would read it in about a night. Sounds amazing actually.

[nastyhobbitses]

13 hours ago, MargaretElliott said:

Yup. I think this is why a lot of fundies romanticize the past. Everything was great if you were a straight, cisgender, white, Christian person. And that's the perfect person, according to the Duggars and their ilk. Maybe they're not as obviously racist, but the Dillards have some incredible white savior vibes going on. Didn't some family (the Bates?) have a picture of some Civil War general hanging in their home? And the Boyer Sisters, who run a fundie blog, are super into vintage stuff and have stated that their family was on the side of the South. They- white, straight, cis Christians- were at the top of society once. They might long for a time when their identity was unquestionably the best. A time when they were unchallenged. Unquestionably superior. Instead of, y'know, equality.

And I'll just leave this here.

 

[snipped for room]

First of all, photo made me laugh, just snipped it for space.

Second of all, yeah, I think a lot of it is trying to hearken back to a time when they were unchallenged, when they were never made uncomfortable and they never had to question their way of life. Which, you know, I guess is a bit sad in a way, but still wrong. That guy in my hometown is super old and probably feels cornered because everything he knew to be just a given or "just how things ought to be" is now called into question; doesn't make it any less irritating and just plain wrong that he keeps running his mouth about how much he longs for a time period when women were afforded few opportunities beyond Pez Dispenser of Babies, black people suffered far worse institutional discrimination than they face today, colonialism was still an institution in many corners of the world, LGBT people were pretty much SOL, and disabled people had little to no legal protections.

Also, in this same editorial, he complains that back in his day, people didn't commit mass murders. They totally did, dipshit, you just didn't hear about it as much because we didn't have a 24 hour news cycle. He also complains that in the halcyon days when his son-in-law wouldn't be telling him not to call his Filipina nurse "colored", parents weren't killing their kids or vice versa. Yet again, 24-hour news cycle, and the fact that these days, we're a lot more open about domestic violence because now (much to his chagrin, I'm sure), we recognize that it's not OK to beat the shit out of your family members.

I like a bit of nostalgia, don't get me wrong (I love me some early 2000s pop, for instance), but I have no time for people who only want to view the past through rose-tinted glasses.

[ViolaSebastian]

6 hours ago, ChickenettiLuvr said:

I realize I'm a latecomer to the Gone With the Wind discussion... but here lies my dos pesos' worth:

As a Yankee girl dropped into the Deep Old South for college, I was bewildered by the portion of Freshman Orientation that "politely" informed us Yankees and/or folks of color where not to go in the metro area. (True Story, sadly.)

Imagine my further confusion when told that many of the good southern folk were "unaware" that You-Know-Who marched through You-Know-Where and ... well ... you know the story.

The mysterious phenomenon continued through my first two places of employment after graduation... having to answer:  "Who is your daddy?" and "Who are your mama's people?"

To this day, I've yet to be able to sit through the entirety of GWTW. (*ducks for cover north of the Mason-Dixon Line*)

I was born in Kentucky, but grew up in a state in the Midwest. My mother's people are from Kentucky and go back to when the state was still part of Virginia. As an adult, I moved back to Kentucky and I consider myself a native Kentuckian. I always get strange looks when I say that, because I have a "Yankee" accent and get called a Yankee frequently. The truth is (as repugnant as a I find it) my ancestors fought for the Confederacy. So I always find being called a Yankee as a term of derision to be super strange. Plus Kentucky was a Union state, so when people call me a Yankee I'm inclined to say "right back atcha!"

[Snarkle Motion]

6 hours ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

I would definitely read a book like that, assuming it was well written.

Pretty sure there is a book like this. I think it's called The Wind Done Gone. Haven't read it but I remember hearing about it when it came out. 

8 hours ago, Glasgowghirl said:

I hated the Great Gatsby when I had to do it for Higher English in my last year of high school. I failed English that was the one book in 6 years of high school I just couldn't get into. I went back to redo my a Higher's at college last year and was glad I didn't have to do The Great Gatsby again.

Are you from Scotland? It's understandable that you wouldn't get into it. The book is very distinctly American and nuanced critique of American  society and the American dream. 

I remember hating British literature in high school. Brideshead Revisted was absolutely terrible to me. But I think now that I have a better grasp of English history and society I might better appreciate some of the themes. I know that I pick up so much more in Jane Austen novels and that so much of the dialogue is women throwing shade at eachother that completely went over my head the first time around. 

[Snarkle Motion]

8 hours ago, TakingBibleClasses said:

This was a really helpful post; thanks!

Re: "The Civil War was about states' rights, not about slavery": this is what I learned in my high school history classes, and I'm wondering if it might have some value within a northern context that tends to cast itself as the non-racist, righteous hero.

I could be wrong, but hear me out. I grew up in Southern California. Not itself the North, obviously, but they're the side with which we were taught to empathize. In elementary school we were presented with a grand "white savior" narrative in which non-racist white northerners valiantly fought for the rights of slaves - and nothing else. No self-interest was involved; the North were just good folks who wanted to save black people.

Yeah that's not how we were taught in history class. It was made clear that the Norths reasons weren't altruistic, that a lot of abolitionist didn't actually care about black people but were more obsessed with the idea that slavery was wrong on religious grounds and that they didn't want to be associated with it for this reason, not because blacks were equal. 

I mean I don't think the "North" really feels identity as the North unless Southerners invoke it. It never felt like "us" vs "them" in the same way southerners feel it. It was more a part of history that happened and the idea that people still closely identify with one side felt kind of ridiculous, like still holding a grudge with King George and Britain for taxation with representation.

[TakingBibleClasses]

1 hour ago, Snarkle Motion said:

Yeah that's not how we were taught in history class. It was made clear that the Norths reasons weren't altruistic, that a lot of abolitionist didn't actually care about black people but were more obsessed with the idea that slavery was wrong on religious grounds and that they didn't want to be associated with it for this reason, not because blacks were equal. 

I mean I don't think the "North" really feels identity as the North unless Southerners invoke it. It never felt like "us" vs "them" in the same way southerners feel it. It was more a part of history that happened and the idea that people still closely identify with one side felt kind of ridiculous, like still holding a grudge with King George and Britain for taxation with representation.

I'm just saying that was the earlier, simplified narrative that was corrected in later education, the way the cute, happy version of the Thanksgiving story gets presented in kindergarten and then is later complicated. To me at least it was certainly not made clear that the North's motives were complicated until high school US history. (Granted, I missed middle school US history because my family was abroad that year.) But throughout my education we absolutely identified with the "righteous North" - not as some all-encompassing identity, but whenever the Civil War was brought up. That was my experience at least.

(Weird example: my high school church group went to a summer camp that had decided their theme for the year was "Unity"... and then made the games theme "The Civil War." My cabin was horrified to be put on the side of the South, gray t-shirts and everything. Looking back... it's still weird, and pretty troubling?? What was the camp thinking?)

[MamaJunebug]

Dropping by with 2 quick stories: I read GWTW in 1962 after learning that Jacqueline Kennedy had read it twice by the age I was then. Finished and wondered  why in earth anyone ever found that tidbit about Jackie was worth reporting.

My experience only, but with in-laws and friends in various parts of the southern US states, I have found there is no one "Southern culture."  The two things I have found common across all of them are (1) accents with varying degrees of a drawl* and (2) weariness of me and my lame attempts at Yankee [sic] humor. 

----

* I love to hear people speak with accents and drawls.  As I age, sadly, I seem to miss more and more words. My ex- got so mad when I didn't understand his cousin's inquiry, "Jeetyit?" as a form of "Are you hungry?"

[onekidanddone]

11 hours ago, Glasgowghirl said:

I hated the Great Gatsby when I had to do it for Higher English in my last year of high school. I failed English that was the one book in 6 years of high school I just couldn't get into. I went back to redo my a Higher's at college last year and was glad I didn't have to do The Great Gatsby again.

Ugh The Great Gatsby.  Had to read that for English 101 my first year at college.  Wanted to through the damn thing across the room. Boring  as fuck.  Reading about a bunch of self centered narcissists just didn't click with me. 

[Four is Enough]

15 hours ago, CreationMuseumSeasonPass said:

During the Fourth of July weekend, TNT used to show the movie "Gettysburg" with Jeff Daniels, which is based on "The Killer Angels." I remember watching this with my father when I was a young elementary-school-aged girl. By 6th grade, I was reading "The Killer Angels" and "Gods and Generals." Total history nerd here. So much so, I double majored in college with a journalism degree and a history degree. I cannot recommend these movies and books ENOUGH. Especially the movie scene with Pickett's Charge.

LOVED "The Killer Angels" and "Gettysburg".. Jeff Shaara wrote three books, I think, about that time. "Killer Angels" is definitely the best.  That portrayed more of the realities of war, and perhaps the ridiculousness of following orders blindly. I can still see Sam Eliot thumping his chest and dust coming off his coat when he is ranting about "men with big hats will talk about what a brave charge it was"...  Chamberlain's men, out of ammunition, fixing bayonets to charge down Little Round Top..

Gettysburg is an uncanny place. It is good to go there when it's less populated.. you can hear things.

[SuchABlessing]

I live on the Mason Dixon line, literally. It's strange bc the cultural divide between north and south is so cut-and-dry. For example, it is very rare to see a confederate flag north of the M&D in PA. However, as soon as you cross the line into Maryland you see them everywhere with the "heritage not hate" mentality. I'm from the "north" and when I moved 15 miles into the "south", it was crazy how quickly mentalities and ways of life change. Not saying anything bad about either side, but the divide is still pretty apparent and worth commenting on, IMO. 

BTW, I was in the South Carolina low country last week and I just got a kick out of everyone calling everyone else "sugar, baby, doll, sweetie, honey" 

[princessmahina]

1 hour ago, SuchABlessing said:

I live on the Mason Dixon line, literally. It's strange bc the cultural divide between north and south is so cut-and-dry. For example, it is very rare to see a confederate flag north of the M&D in PA. However, as soon as you cross the line into Maryland you see them everywhere with the "heritage not hate" mentality. I'm from the "north" and when I moved 15 miles into the "south", it was crazy how quickly mentalities and ways of life change. Not saying anything bad about either side, but the divide is still pretty apparent and worth commenting on, IMO. 

BTW, I was in the South Carolina low country last week and I just got a kick out of everyone calling everyone else "sugar, baby, doll, sweetie, honey" 

Living in the deep south (Alabama), I find the heritage vs. hate debate an interesting one, especially in light of the shitstorm that went down when they took the flag down in Montgomery a couple years back.

My take on it is that it's heritage when the Confederate flag is in a museum (or another historical-type exhibit) with the purpose of education or if it's on the grave of a Confederate soldier. I find both of those totally okay. I find it hateful when it's anywhere else-- a flag hanging on a truck, dangling over a courthouse (I can't even imagine how a person of color would feel walking into a courthouse with the Confederate flag hanging over it), bumper stickers, etc. 

It gets fuzzy when it comes to re-enactments because the historian in me loves watching things that are historically accurate, but the rest of me gets a little (or more than a little) weirded out by people who get really excited dressing like Confederate soldiers. 

[Bad Wolf]

Wolf 2 was stationed near Charleston, SC. My first visit to the south. (I don't think Disney World  counts.) It was very cosmopolitan and I had been looking forward to hearing a Southern drawl. We did have a waitress comment "Y'all aren't from around here". I think we were confused about grits. Since then I've come to love grits with cheese. Good times.

[goldengrove]

6 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

My experience only, but with in-laws and friends in various parts of the southern US states, I have found there is no one "Southern culture."  The two things I have found common across all of them are (1) accents with varying degrees of a drawl* and (2) weariness of me and my lame attempts at Yankee [sic] humor. 

----

* I love to hear people speak with accents and drawls.  As I age, sadly, I seem to miss more and more words. My ex- got so mad when I didn't understand his cousin's inquiry, "Jeetyit?" as a form of "Are you hungry?"

Thank you very much for this we don't all talk alike, and we don't all think alike (god forbid!).  I may live as far from my home state as I can get and still be in the US, but I am still, and always will be, a southerner.

I lived as a child in an area where the local accent was very strong, and was raised by parents with totally different accents from the locals.  I tried very hard not to have an accent as I grew up, but it was difficult to avoid having some.  People where I live now have to be listening very hard to hear it; however,  if I am not happy, or talking to someone back home, it all comes back again.

[Carm_88]

Derick posted about his dad and both Jill and Deena commented.

[Exposedknees]

A few things before I leave this thread drift to avoid feeling enraged and deeply offended.

Gone With the Wind is a Romance Novel, we don't teach it in the schools "down here"

My avatar is a hillbilly to be ironic.

My ancestors owned slaves which is terrible, I hate that. I can't change it... It's what I do NOW that counts.

The South didn't elect Trump by itself. 

We don't like being called "folk"

We aren't all evangelical or Southern Baptist

Many of us are highly educated, liberals.

I was married to a non-white person and I experienced more racism in upstate New York than I have ever experienced here in N.C.

Maybe 'folk" should spend more than a few days below the Mason Dixon line before you get all judgey. I think that racism and xenophobia happen everywhere.