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The Boyer Sisters, Part 3


samurai_sarah

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11 minutes ago, ViolaSebastian said:

I feel like I should go on record to say that I do *NOT* believe in biological racial differences. That said, it cannot be ignored when studying history because post-17th century European people DID believe in biological racial differences, and that has to be addressed. Furthermore, there are significant socio-cultural elements that developed because of these racial beliefs. So, I'll invoke the Thomas theorem regarding my racial beliefs. I'd explain it, but it's not my job to educate you, as you seem to believe.

I think we have the same approach to the subject based on what you wrote here.

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1 hour ago, Gabe said:

What constitutes whitewashing? is "whitewashing" a crime? what is the best thing to do about "whitewashing"? (I suspect our answers would differ.)

What do you think whitewashing is? Do you think it has been a problem in history? To you, is saying that the KKK was an organization that helped the poor and needy whitewashing? Is leaving out the non-white, non-men historical figures whitewashing to you? Is downplaying slavery whitewashing in your opinion? 

Is it a crime? No. Acknowledge that it happened and continues to happen would be the best place to start. Then start giving non-white, non-men the same place in history that has typically gone to white dudes. 

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11 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

What do you think whitewashing is? Do you think it has been a problem in history? To you, is saying that the KKK was an organization that helped the poor and needy whitewashing? Is leaving out the non-white, non-men historical figures whitewashing to you? Is downplaying slavery whitewashing in your opinion? 

Is it a crime? No. Acknowledge that it happened and continues to happen would be the best place to start. Then start giving non-white, non-men the same place in history that has typically gone to white dudes. 

I think it's odd that Gabe asked if whitewashing was a crime. 

Is that how Gabe decides if something is right or wrong? That would be shocking. Since I thought there were many sins in the Bible that are not a crime. 

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@Gabe, if you are truly trying to learn, then I can't let it be said that I didn't try to help that effort.  Surely you understand how dominant narratives work, as a budding historian (though it is exceedingly distressing to notice how quickly you dismiss Zinn, who was seeking to rectify that issue in our textbooks). Here is another example to consider.

In WWII, the Japanese armies took women from other nations and forced them to work as sex slaves, or "comfort women."  Many of those women were from Korea.  Many of those women are now dead or near to the end of their lives, due to age. Now that the countries are on somewhat better terms and the war is over, these surviving women spent years wanting apologies.  Koreans were extremely upset about this issue, with good reason, as I'm sure we can all agree.  Not too long ago,as in, within this century,  Japanese textbooks still had a tendency to omit  everything about the comfort women issue. The result was that some young Japanese people had no idea why Koreans were so upset with them.  It took decades for advocates to get this huge issue addressed and  for the countries to reconcile and be able to move forward from this, due in large part to whitewashed textbooks.

Surely you can see some parallels between those issues in their textbooks and the omission of people of color and women from many Western history books, yes?

Also, King Leopold's Ghost, by Adam Hochschild, should really be on your reading list. It's a perfect illustration of what gets lost when focusing on European history through only the narratives of those ensconced in the dominant culture. 

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23 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I think it's odd that Gabe asked if whitewashing was a crime. 

That did leap out as a very odd question since whitewashing is still alive and well and obviously isn't a crime. 

I can't figure out if Gabe doesn't believe whitewashing happened and still happens.

Is renaming the slave trade to call it something else that doesn't make it obvious people were being kidnapped and enslaved whitewashing, Gabe? Is taking out the word slave and calling them workers, whitewashing to you? Is removing the negative parts of history and white historical figures whitewashing? 

Here are some articles for you @Gabe

https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/02/17/american-history-books-and-racism/

 

https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/05/24/what-can-be-taught-as-history-in-texas/

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High school students are not required to know anything about lynching.

The Japanese internment was not racist.

McCarthyism was not so bad after all.

 

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Some whites on the board fought to have Cesar Chavez thrown out of the history books but failed. But they were able to keep out other Hispanics, like those who fought for the independence of Texas from Mexico. And this in a state that is one-third Hispanic.

Quote

Most schoolbook history in America is whitewashed but what makes the Texas case remarkable is that it is so naked and open.

 

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1 hour ago, Gabe said:

Religion is completely different than "race" there is nothing you can really do about the color of your skin, while ideology and religion are ideas which can be influenced and changed.

It didn't save Edith Stein from death nor moriscos from persecution and deportation. 

I too believe there's only one race and that's the human as I do believe that between individuals there are more differences than between genders. But I would be foolish if I thought that my life would  be the same if I were male or if I were black. Things like skin colour and gender and ethnicity affect one's life in multiple ways and even if  I believe this is wrong and stupid I can't be blind to it. And then there's the fact  I am proud of me being  a woman, our fellow black FJers are proud of their identity and heritage blackness included as much as you are happy and proud of your identity. Everyone of us has the right to define themselves and gender and ethnicity are a way as there are many others.  What is unacceptable is that we live in societies where some defining traits undeniably come with a bonus of more dignity,  more worthiness and  more possibilities at the expense of others. 

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Gabe, 

I've been privileged to do historical research for a living, and get paid mighty well for it, for several decades now.

Since you asked, here are a couple of books that I've really enjoyed in the last few years & love to recommend:

Blood and Thunder: The Epic Story of Kit Carson and the Conquest of the American West, by Hampton Sides.  

--this book is extremely entertaining and is a great introduction to the complexity of Anglo-Hispanic-Native relations in the Southwest as well.

The Black Count: Glory, Revolution, Betrayal and the Real Count of Monte Cristo, by Tom Reiss

--the epic story of a black Napoleonic General. I had never thought about the aspects of race relations in the French Revolution before this book.

The March trilogy, by John Lewis and Andrew Aydin  

-- in response to your statement that you can't do anything about racism. John Lewis is an ordained minister, among other things.

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1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Gabe, please do not ever adopt a child of another race and then pretend y'all are colorblind and that child will have the exact same experience in life as you and your white wife. 

This is so true. I have a coworker who has adopted two children, one from China and one from Korea.  She and her husband, both of whom are white, have had a few conferences with their kids' school over the past year to address racially-charged bullying. They have a third child who is white, and that child has not been subjected to the same torment. 

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8 minutes ago, HereticHick said:

The March trilogy, by John Lewis and Andrew Aydin  

-- in response to your statement that you can't do anything about racism.

I have never heard of this! It looks really good. I'm adding it to my book wish list. Thank you! 

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32 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I have never heard of this! It looks really good. I'm adding it to my book wish list. Thank you! 

These are YA graphic novels, so really quick reads. The 3rd volume just won the National Book Award: http://www.nationalbook.org/nba2016winner_ypl_lewis_aydin_powell_march.html#.WGQ001UrJpg

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Thanks, @HereticHick.  Adding to my reading list too.

I finally caught up with this thread and I was alternately laughing and almost crying throughout. 

Young Gabe has just given us a perfect illustration of how limited his schooling was - and how he is disadvantaged by its inadequacies going forward.  He didn't even know the term "Social History" even though that is what he claims to be interested in.  He has no idea where to start, and he has no idea how little he knows.

As Gabe won't answer the questions about whether he has any higher education, I'm guessing not.  He would actually benefit from undergraduate courses in history, but he doesn't think he needs them.

If Gabe wasn't behaving like an arrogant little ass I'd be feeling sorry for him.  He's as much of an historian as Geoff Botkin is a Duck Biologist.  But Botkin is what passes for an intellectual in his circles.

There is certainly room for autodidacts in this world, but most of them benefit from open and inquiring minds.  Gabe seems not to want to read anything that challenges his preconceptions.

Although I thought it was hilarious that he read an article in Dissent Magazine!

 

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I have enough reading recommendations to keep me busy for some time. Thank you FJ for all of the insightful replies to Gabe. I'm going to go back through and read it over again. 

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2 hours ago, formergothardite said:

Is it a crime? No. Acknowledge that it happened and continues to happen would be the best place to start. Then start giving non-white, non-men the same place in history that has typically gone to white dudes. 

 

Exactly. It's easy to pretend that these people didn't exist because they weren't in the traditional American educational curriculum of dead white guys that many of us grew up with. That doesn't mean they didn't exist. That doesn't mean they didn't participate in or influence world events. That doesn't mean they didn't leave substantial bodies of work. It just means their accomplishments were overlooked or diminished by historians because of their skin color or gender.

For instance, the Bronte sisters first published their works under male pseudonyms because it was difficult or impossible to get published as a woman. Obviously, their work itself was up to par because it got published and read. The issue isn't that women, people of color, etc. weren't creating or contributing; the issue is that social norms rendered these people and their work invisible, or at least significantly less visible than that of white Christian men. There's a reason that movies like Hidden Figures are being made today: there is frequently much more to the story than what textbooks or encyclopedias from 40+ years ago told, and it's verifiable through historical evidence.

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I'm disabled. My primary disabilities are autism/learning disabilities / mental illness and, recently, chronic pain/back problems. But I don't look it. If I'm sitting down you can have a conversation with me and, because of the effort that I put forth, you won't know that anything is different about me unless you're autistic yourself or really, really good at picking up on social skills training in others.

but just because I don't look disabled doesn't mean I'm not. Just because Gabe says he doesn't believe in race doesn't mean that race doesn't play an important role in history and in the world today. Some of my relatives say that because I'm not like the stereotypical Rainman figure I'm not really autistic. To my relatives I say well you are not a neurologist and that's who diagnosed me. To Gabe I say well you are not a historian, academic, or member of an oppressed group, so, just because you say something didn't happen or doesn't exist doesn't mean it is so. 

i don't have to appear to be non disabled just because it makes others lives easier. I can be my full, flappy, sweary, queer, atheist self and that's fine. That's great, even. The problem with people like Gabe is that they expect us to not be our full selves because it makes his life easier. It is easier if we don't call out his racism or his faulty logic. It is easier if we accede to his worldview because change is hard.(Also water is wet.) and Gabe may honestly not be used to the diverse bubble I know that I myself take for granted in my real life, and the level of debate and sarcasm and curiosity and concern we enjoy at FJ.

Also you never answered my question about your less-government-is-good.

King Solomons Ghost is excellent but watch out if you have PTSD, it gave me nightmares for months.

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What makes European history a more valid topic of study than, say, Chinese history? China is arguably as important if not more, on a global stage than Europe. Indian? Japanese? Gabe's pathetically narrow world view would be funny if it wasn't so sad. 

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9 minutes ago, anachronistic said:

Just because Gabe says he doesn't believe in race doesn't mean that race doesn't play an important role in history and in the world today.

I don't mean to take anything away from your story, because you make a really important point -- but at the same time I'm pretty sure when @Gabe said he "doesn't believe in race" he meant it in the pedantic way that means "technically our race is 'homo sapiens' and we are all of that same race" -- I'm pretty sure he acknowledges that we are of different skin colors, different cultural and ethnic heritages, etc.

Similar to what I was suggesting in my earlier post, I think Gabe was trying to show his non-bigotry in the only way he knows, the way that he's been taught, which is to be colorblind and use clever sayings like "we're all one race" to show that he doesn't measure people by their skin color.

And I don't believe anyone has accused him personally of measuring people by their skin color.  BUT -- if we are discussing, not our personal tolerances and morals, but HISTORY, then whatever term one applies to our skin color/cultural/ethnic differences, commonly referred to as race, the term itself is not so important but the recognition of the issue and the role it has played in history and continues to play in current events is not just important but key!

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26 minutes ago, ladyamylynn said:

Gabe's pathetically narrow world view would be funny if it wasn't so sad. 

I agree.  It really is sad.

This young man may have a good brain, but he has a narrow outlook and is determined to narrow it even further - as his comments this thread clearly demonstrate.

Gabe also seems to believe that he is very clever.  He has done "significant research" but is unable to name his sources.  He is also showing that he leaps after anything that says textile or tailor as areas of study - but shows a scattershot approach and lack of attention to the historical context.

By the by, the 14th edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica was published in 1929.  And he read some world history books published in the 1960s.  

Gabe, without googling (be honest), what can you tell us about the Civil Rights Movement?  

 

 

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38 minutes ago, ladyamylynn said:

What makes European history a more valid topic of study than, say, Chinese history? China is arguably as important if not more, on a global stage than Europe. Indian? Japanese? Gabe's pathetically narrow world view would be funny if it wasn't so sad. 

Amen to this. Now, of course European history is important and fascinating, but Gabe, why not take a look at the history of Dynastic China (modern China's pretty cool too)? Or India during the Mughal period? Or the Mali and Songhai Empires that ruled large swaths of Africa? Or the Ottoman Empire? Or the history of the Philippines? The world's a big, diverse, and awesome place, and you'll also come to understand European history much better once you zoom out a bit or look at what was going on in the world beyond Europe in a given time period. For example, understanding the history of the early days of the Raj in India made it a lot easier for me to understand the economic factors that influenced the American Civil War (whatever, South, we can just get our cotton from India) and the Victorian era in general. Understanding the history of the Ottoman Empire made it a lot easier for me to contextualize how the Balkans turned out how they did.

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19 minutes ago, church_of_dog said:

BUT -- if we are discussing, not our personal tolerances and morals, but HISTORY, then whatever term one applies to our skin color/cultural/ethnic differences, commonly referred to as race, the term itself is not so important but the recognition of the issue and the role it has played in history and continues to play in current events is not just important but key!

 

I agree that's a very important distinction to make. Whether or not someone personally accepts discriminating against people based solely on skin color, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, language, religion, etc. doesn't change or fix the fact that other people have and continue to do so.

Not to mention what is considered a "race" or ethnicity, like who is considered "white" or "European," changes pretty radically depending on the time/place you're discussing! (For instance, "no Irish need apply")

1 minute ago, nastyhobbitses said:

The world's a big, diverse, and awesome place, and you'll also come to understand European history much better once you zoom out a bit or look at what was going on in the world beyond Europe in a given time period.

 

Seriously. Nobody can pretend to have a solid grasp on European history without serious examination of the history of the places and peoples involved in European colonization and decolonization. They are all inextricably linked.

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7 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I've been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt but my god.... It's sure easy for you as a white man to say you don't want to look at history based on race. My eyes may have just rolled out of my head. I don't think I can be polite anymore...

I am Black. I received what was considered a good elementary and high school education. But when I got to university and took Black studies courses, I realized how whitewashed history had been taught to me. It was an eye opener for sure. I didn't know about the Massachusetts 54th regiment until the movie Glory came out. Nothing was taught to us in the 60s and 70s about the Tuskeegee Airmen even. Lincoln freed the slaves, so it was all good with slavery. It was almost criminal the distortions and omissions that were codified into the curriculum. And I attended predominantly Black schools in a middle class neighborhood! 

Anyone who thinks race, class, and gender do not need to be consciously considered when examining history is a dominant member of all these groups, to be able to even have such a perspective.

When it comes to Gabe, trust but verify. I am a skeptic.

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I was finding this thread pretty dull, but yesterday I had to suppress a giggle every time I've had a patient whose birth date was in the 1960s imagining someone considering a 1960s encyclopaedia as excellence in history scholarship. Bless.

Also I'd like the four years of medical school back because we had a set of 1960s medical encyclopaedias which I read voraciously. 

I don't care at all who Gabe it. Real Gabe, pretend Gabe, whatever. I rather hope for whichever Boyer sister it was he married that it isn't real Gabe because he's rather ungracious, has some grandiose views of himself (tailor ?sans apprenticeship and study, historian ?sans degree and of course from the first thread expert on men's penises/circumcision injuries ?sans medical degree and experience in examining flaccid and erect penises). Then as for the I don't see race nonsense. Dear Lord! We all have biases in how we treat everyone based on our preconceptions about them, right from that we'll describe a baby's behaviour differently if we're told it's a male rather than a female. People associate white people with good  Implicit social cognition/implicit bias makes any "I don't see race" meaningless. If we see someone with the same skin colour being hurt our brains respond differently than if we see someone with different coloured skin being hurt. It runs so very deep.

I agree this person, whoever they may be, has shown how inadequate their schooling has been and how hard it would be going forward from here. I loved history as a child and was getting social history books from the library (particularly about women and children, as was my main interest then) back in the early 1990s when I was at primary school.

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I don't really care who Gabe is, but having serious discussions with someone who is presenting as someone else is kinda weird. Not that we know for sure that's what is happening, but...

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I don't really care who Gabe is, but having serious discussions with someone who is presenting as someone else is kinda weird. Not that we know for sure that's what is happening, but...

Well, like Al, he's willing to unmask if we will too! :-P
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