The Boyer Sisters, Part 3

[AlwaysExcited]

There is an idea that historian must give up their own worldview, judgments, sympathies, sentiments etc. as much as possible in order to understand a time period or person. It's not fully possible, of course, as you cannot leave yourself and your own century, but that's the goal. 

Means that you don't just judge Middle Ages as dark/evil/sexist/violent/great/better or worse than nowadays, you actually try to look at the people of time and place and understand their complex motivations and worldviews, and way of thinking, their situation and the world they lived at, contexts and subtexts. You don't try to learn from past, you try to explain it. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

24 minutes ago, Gabe said:

I ignored it because I never thought of or think of history in the context of the melanin count of their skin.

It's insulting and racist to continually frame history along racial lines and I am sick of it. I agree with Morgan Freeman on this topic. One of the best ways to combat racism is to stop talking about the color of people's skin and instead judge them based on their actions and what they contribute to society.

History isn't white or black or Asian or brown it's history. So do your bit and point me in the direction of good material that you think is underserved if you want to do something positive instead of whining about whitewashing.

I've been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt but my god.... It's sure easy for you as a white man to say you don't want to look at history based on race. My eyes may have just rolled out of my head. I don't think I can be polite anymore...

[Bretta]

24 minutes ago, Gabe said:

I ignored it because I never thought of or think of history in the context of the melanin count of their skin.

It's insulting and racist to continually frame history along racial lines and I am sick of it. I agree with Morgan Freeman on this topic. One of the best ways to combat racism is to stop talking about the color of people's skin and instead judge them based on their actions and what they contribute to society.

History isn't white or black or Asian or brown it's history. So do your bit and point me in the direction of good material that you think is underserved if you want to do something positive instead of whining about whitewashing.

Interesting, because in history, there were people were enslaved, abused, and killed because of the colour of their skin.

I think there has to be an acknowledgement of the truth before you can just "move on". You couldn't be bias-free without being aware of the bias that is present and already deeply rooted in history...  Then you'd just be bias-ignorant. It's not something that can be conveniently swept under the carpet. Inequality and discrimination, whether based on ethnicity, "melanin count", gender, social class; these have always been present. And these inequalities have terrible effects on modern society. Without understanding historical oppression, how can you understand history, or even the present?

[formergothardite]

27 minutes ago, Gabe said:

History isn't white or black or Asian or brown it's history. So do your bit and point me in the direction of good material that you think is underserved if you want to do something positive instead of whining about whitewashing.

It would be ignorant to ignore that much of how history has been taught has been whitewashed. Whitewashing is a part of history and it does no good to pretend like it didn't happen, does it? 

I shared with you some stories.  Did you notice them? That was just a tiny start. What did you think of those? Did you learn about them in your history education? If not, why do you think that is so? This is something I discuss with my oldest daughter when we discover people who are left out of most history educations. I think it is an important part of history to look at the folks the people who get left out of history and discuss the reasons why. Can you explain why you think children shouldn't be taught that history has been often whitewashed? 

My daughter had to do a project on a historical figure and chose Fannie Lou Hamer. Her teacher didn't know who that was and wanted her to pick one of the more "famous" people. But luckily she was able explain to her teacher more about her and got to write about this amazing woman who history has mostly forgotten.  And we were able to have a good conversation about why people like Fannie Lou Hamer don't get remembered. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

19 minutes ago, Bretta said:

Interesting, because in history, there were people were enslaved, abused, and killed because of the colour of their skin.

I think there has to be an acknowledgement of the truth before you can just "move on". You couldn't be bias-free without being aware of the bias that is present and already deeply rooted in history...  Then you'd just be bias-ignorant. It's not something that can be conveniently swept under the carpet. Inequality and discrimination, whether based on ethnicity, "melanin count", gender, social class; these have always been present. And these inequalities have terrible effects on modern society. Without understanding historical oppression, how can you understand history, or even the present?

I bet Gabe is also one of those people that says, "I don't see color." Or claims to be colorblind. 

[ViolaSebastian]

Everybody relax, the white penis holder has told us to stop talking about it, so we better stop!!1!1!!11!!

[church_of_dog]

I'm going to hazard a guess that @Gabe is surprised by @JermajestyDuggar and @Bretta's reactions to his post.

Because I originally would have been too.

As a white person who did not experience racism first-hand growing up (or at least did not recognize it when it was present), I remember as a young person thinking that the ideal counter-behavior to bigots (who were presumed to be identified by their stating out loud what negative attributes they believed apply to which groups of people), was to be "color-blind" -- to treat people with the respect one treats people based on their behavior, as if they didn't have a race or ethnicity, or as if one simply didn't notice it.

But 1) I think that's the thinking of someone who has very recently begun to think for themselves.  That is an ideal, but as a person matures, they learn that that ideal is not all there is.  They learn that the experiences of others matter, even if those experiences are unfamiliar to themselves.  Thus is born the need and desire to learn from others, from groups with different experiences than one's own.

And while I congratulate Gabe for beginning to think for himself, which must be rather a big deal given the culture he was raised in, I do hope he will learn that there are still more perspectives he might want to learn about before he feels ready to make grand "this is how it is" pronouncements about the world.

and 2) That whole ignoring-color thing -- even if it was otherwise a good idea in the sense of treating everyone fairly and with respect, there is no WAY one can get even a hint of a whisper of a sense of HISTORY with those blinders on!  It's HISTORY, for Dog's sake -- it's what actually happened and what were the actual reasons for what happened!  Racism and other -isms have been a YUUUGGE basis for so much of history.  For good or for bad -- and that's the thing -- whether you think it was for good or for bad, if it happened, it happened!

Reaching the point of becoming aware that so much of history was based on horrible reasons, and that in hindsight, cultures guilty of such horrible reasons were ashamed and came up with stories that sounded better, and that we have now been taught some of these fictional stories BUT THEY ARE NOT THE TRUTH, is a really big step.

I am embarrassed at my own lack of awareness of history, and I endeavor to start reading to learn more.

[Gabe]

16 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

It would be ignorant to ignore that much of how history has been taught has been whitewashed. Whitewashing is a part of history and it does no good to pretend like it didn't happen, does it? 

What constitutes whitewashing? is "whitewashing" a crime? what is the best thing to do about "whitewashing"? (I suspect our answers would differ.)

16 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I shared with you some stories.  Did you notice them? That was just a tiny start. What did you think of those? Did you learn about them in your history education? If not, why do you think that is so? This is something I discuss with my oldest daughter when we discover people who are left out of most history educations. I think it is an important part of history to look at the folks the people who get left out of history and discuss the reasons why. Can you explain why you think children shouldn't be taught that history has been often whitewashed? 

I did notice them. They were replied to in the post my phone lost. I already knew about Columbus, I hadn't heard of Robert Small and I had read about the women who worked for NASA I thought that was common knowledge. I pinned the name Robert Small to look into later. In fact your recommendation was why I asked for more. I was trying to nudge the conversation in a positive and productive direction.

[JermajestyDuggar]

3 minutes ago, church_of_dog said:

I'm going to hazard a guess that @Gabe is surprised by @JermajestyDuggar and @Bretta's reactions to his post.

Because I originally would have been too.

As a white person who did not experience racism first-hand growing up (or at least did not recognize it when it was present), I remember as a young person thinking that the ideal counter-behavior to bigots (who were presumed to be identified by their stating out loud what negative attributes they believed apply to which groups of people), was to be "color-blind" -- to treat people with the respect one treats people based on their behavior, as if they didn't have a race or ethnicity, or as if one simply didn't notice it.

But 1) I think that's the thinking of someone who has very recently begun to think for themselves.  That is an ideal, but as a person matures, they learn that that ideal is not all there is.  They learn that the experiences of others matter, even if those experiences are unfamiliar to themselves.  Thus is born the need and desire to learn from others, from groups with different experiences than one's own.

And while I congratulate Gabe for beginning to think for himself, which must be rather a big deal given the culture he was raised in, I do hope he will learn that there are still more perspectives he might want to learn about before he feels ready to make grand "this is how it is" pronouncements about the world.

and 2) That whole ignoring-color thing -- even if it was otherwise a good idea in the sense of treating everyone fairly and with respect, there is no WAY one can get even a hint of a whisper of a sense of HISTORY with those blinders on!  It's HISTORY, for Dog's sake -- it's what actually happened and what were the actual reasons for what happened!  Racism and other -isms have been a YUUUGGE basis for so much of history.  For good or for bad -- and that's the thing -- whether you think it was for good or for bad, if it happened, it happened!

Reaching the point of becoming aware that so much of history was based on horrible reasons, and that in hindsight, cultures guilty of such horrible reasons were ashamed and came up with stories that sounded better, and that we have now been taught some of these fictional stories BUT THEY ARE NOT THE TRUTH, is a really big step.

I am embarrassed at my own lack of awareness of history, and I endeavor to start reading to learn more.

I hope you are right that it's a sign he's starting to think for himself. But I just can't deal with the "color blindness." It's often just a way to ignore racism. 

[Gabe]

39 minutes ago, Bretta said:

Interesting, because in history, there were people were enslaved, abused, and killed because of the colour of their skin.

People were also enslaved beaten and abused for their religion. 

[ViolaSebastian]

1 hour ago, Gabe said:

History isn't white or black or Asian or brown it's history. So do your bit and point me in the direction of good material that you think is underserved if you want to do something positive instead of whining about whitewashing.

You have absolutely zero right to come on here and tell someone what to do and what not to do. So take your commands and shove them. @formergothardite has given you PLENTY of material, which she was under NO obligation to do, as YOU are the self-professed amateur historian. Furthermore, how dare you characterize someone else's legitimate complaints as whining. If your on-line persona is any indication, you have serious control issues that you need to address with a professional.

God help Brigid until you do, she's going to need it. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

7 minutes ago, Gabe said:

People were also enslaved beaten and abused for their religion. 

"I ignored it because I never thought of or think of history in the context of the melanin count of their skin."

 

^^Do you also never think of history in the context of the religion of the person you are studying?

 

Btw, I love Morgan Freeman but just because he's black doesn't mean he's the authority on race relations in the US. And I completely disagree with Morgan Freeman's words on racism in the US. 

[nausicaa]

48 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I've been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt but my god.... It's sure easy for you as a white man to say you don't want to look at history based on race. My eyes may have just rolled out of my head. I don't think I can be polite anymore...

Gabe doesn't see color, y'all! 

Except, when explaining why he wants to write about European history:

Quote

I am "white" the history of white European men is my history. I see no reason to be ashamed of that. There are shameful aspects to it which I intend to point out. But I am justly proud of my ancestors and of their culture.

Then he seems quite aware of color, and defends being "justly proud" of something that is so arbitrary...

I've been trying to give him the benefit of the doubt as well, and compared to other Fundie Fridays, dude has held up pretty well. But this really is ridiculous.

[Gabe]

10 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

^Do you also never think of history in the context of the religion of the person you are studying?

Religion is completely different than "race" there is nothing you can really do about the color of your skin, while ideology and religion are ideas which can be influenced and changed.

9 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

Then he seems quite aware of color, and defends being "justly proud" of something that is so arbitrary.

I put white in quotation marks on purpose. I am proud of Anglo-American history. I was using the term white because I am talking to a bunch of people who believe in races and it was a way to relay my point quickly.

I never use white/black when talking about people.

As a Christian I believe there is only one race the human race. I cannot do anything about the racism of others white or black. I can control the way that I act.

[Bretta]

24 minutes ago, Gabe said:

People were also enslaved beaten and abused for their religion. 

Umm... your point being? That we should also be religion-blind when approaching history? I also mentioned gender, social class, ethnicity, etc. as being factors in terms of discrimination. I mean, look at the history of Irish people, and how they were treated and regarded once upon a time because of their culture, religion (so it's not an anti-white thing, it's about inequality and prejudice).

Let's talk about religion persecution that's not often talked about, because that was going to be my reply before you wrote yours. I'm trying to have a cool, rational and respectful discussion so I'm not making assumptions, just asking questions.

There are two things that would be concerning to me. Firstly, having a black and white view of history that comes from a black and white, over-simplified view of life. Ie. that Christians were always good people. That a Christian government would equal a godly society, etc. That the old days were the good days and the old ways are good ways necessarily.

Secondly, I personally feel that the danger in "whitewashed" or innacurate, biased curricula or history approaches is found in what is write... it's more often found in what they leave out! For example, in the UK, you'd never hear about Irish history whereas in Ireland you would. Or maybe when studying European history you'd learn about Leopold II of Belgium, but less about the horrifying abuse and murder of the people of Congo. Or you'd hear "good" things about the "godly" Puritans and not about the witch-burnings or even how they'd persecute (and kill!) the Quakers or anyone else who didn't conform. Protestants might write about how they would be persecuted by Catholics but less about Catholics who were persecuted by Protestants. With regards to Church history, many would be ignorant about the persecution of Jewish communities in Christian societies - humiliation, exclusion, banishment, pogroms, the Crusades, the Inquisition.  These are some ways a curriculum could "lie by omission" and paint a picture that leaves out uncomfortable facts.

@Gabe, I came from a fundie homeschool background and it took me years to realise how biased the whole culture. How negativity towards other cultures and right-wing ideology is ingrained into children from a young age. The curriculum I did use was conservative but not half as bad as some others. Bob Jones is plain awful and innacurate, half the statements are opinions assumptions or made up facts.  Let's not get into the Wisdom Booklets because they basically invented narratives to fit into their system of thinking.

I remember reading my friend's Bob  Jones history book, and because I'm a musician, I was laughing at the way they said Romantic Era music was about "rebellion" and something of that sort. I was like... WTF> Romantic Era music was more about beauty and sentimentality than breaking the supposed "rules" of classical music.

[ladyamylynn]

Guys, it's just a total coincidence that white European Christian males did all the important and interesting stuff. Gabe can't help it that he's part of such a blessed legacy. 

[Destiny]

6 hours ago, formergothardite said:

Did we all read the encyclopedias growing up?!  My parents had bought the 1980 ones. 

I no longer remember what year mine were from, but I very clearly remember them saying something along the lines of, "maybe sometime man will go to the moon," because I ran to my mom to ask why they didn't know that that had happened years ago. I'm thinking they were somewhere around 64 or 65 because the civil rights movement hadn't happened yet either IIRC.

2 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

ALL of history, even that which didn't happen from our direct relatives or ancestors, Is OUR history. We have to know it, own it, live within its parameters, and with its consequences. 

I'm only quoting this part, but your whole post was beautiful and made me cry. Thank you @Four is Enough.

39 minutes ago, Gabe said:

People were also enslaved beaten and abused for their religion. 

I sincerely hope that you are not trying to insinuate that you are one of them. White, Christian men in the US are NOT abused for their religion. You can practice your religion in public with no fear of reprisals. Being questioned for the problematic aspects of your religious practices and beliefs is not abuse.

[JermajestyDuggar]

10 minutes ago, Gabe said:

Religion is completely different than "race" there is nothing you can really do about the color of your skin, while ideology and religion are ideas which can be influenced and changed.

I put white in quotation marks on purpose. I am proud of Anglo-American history. I was using the term white because I am talking to a bunch of people who believe in races and it was a way to relay my point quickly.

I never use white/black when talking about people.

As a Christian I believe there is only one race the human race. I cannot do anything about the racism of others white or black. I can control the way that I act.

Again, it's so very convenient that a white male doesn't believe in race....

I don't know if I can do this anymore you guys. Can someone hold my earrings? 

[Bretta]

2 minutes ago, Gabe said:

I am proud of Anglo-American history.

 

Of course there are elements to be proud of but there are things to be not proud of either ie. how Native Americans were treated. I don't know because I'm not anglo-American, I can't tell you how to view your heritage and history. However, as a Christian, there are parts of Christian history that I am not proud of, and I feel reconciliation and repentance is necessary even if I was never directly involved. A book I'd recommend would be "Our Hands are Stained with Blood" by Dr. Michael Brown (a Christian pastor, right wing as they come) highlighting out the horrific history of Christian persecution of Jews. That'll be a great place to start. It's not a history book at all, it's a book about repentance and the recognition of historical wrongs, the "blood on our hands", so to speak.

 

 

[ViolaSebastian]

I feel like I should go on record to say that I do *NOT* believe in biological racial differences. That said, it cannot be ignored when studying history because post-17th century European people DID believe in biological racial differences, and that has to be addressed. Furthermore, there are significant socio-cultural elements that developed because of these racial beliefs. So, I'll invoke the Thomas theorem regarding my racial beliefs. I'd explain it, but it's not my job to educate you, as you seem to believe.

[JermajestyDuggar]

18 minutes ago, Gabe said:

Religion is completely different than "race" there is nothing you can really do about the color of your skin, while ideology and religion are ideas which can be influenced and changed.

I must say I'm shocked you wrote this. I tried to believe in Jesus and Christianity. I was raised baptist and my life would be so much easier if I could believe. But I can't force myself to believe anymore than I can force you not to believe. 

[catlady]

7 hours ago, Gabe said:

Religion is completely different than "race" there is nothing you can really do about the color of your skin, while ideology and religion are ideas which can be influenced and changed.

would you be willing to change your religion?  would you answer differently if that change were by free choice, by force, or by "choice" in that a change would ensure your personal safety?

 

 

34 minutes ago, Gabe said:

What constitutes whitewashing? is "whitewashing" a crime? what is the best thing to do about "whitewashing"? (I suspect our answers would differ.)

<snip>

what is it?  i think @formergothardite defined whitewashing rather well earlier.  

is it a crime?  no, but doing so isn't exactly appropriate.  just because something is legal doesn't mean it's a good thing.

what to do about it?  for starters:  acknowledge that it exists, the damage it has done, the ignorance it has caused.  once people own the fact that so much of history has been sanitized, we can start talking about what has been edited out, and ultimately get it back in. (oversimplification here, i admit)

[Bretta]

16 minutes ago, Gabe said:

Religion is completely different than "race" there is nothing you can really do about the color of your skin, while ideology and religion are ideas which can be influenced and changed.

I put white in quotation marks on purpose. I am proud of Anglo-American history. I was using the term white because I am talking to a bunch of people who believe in races and it was a way to relay my point quickly.

I never use white/black when talking about people.

As a Christian I believe there is only one race the human race. I cannot do anything about the racism of others white or black. I can control the way that I act.

Oh, really. Blessed are the peacemakers, for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven.  Surely we can fight against racism and we certainly should, because God made all people equal! If we see someone being treated wrongfully, we should stand up for them! We certainly can do something about racism, starting with our own views and opinions.We can't just ignore racism we have to be proactive about making the world a better place for everyone ie. people who are different or people who hold different beliefs and ideas.  If people think Christians are racist we should work extra hard to not give Jesus a bad name and spread His love.

[JermajestyDuggar]

Gabe, please do not ever adopt a child of another race and then pretend y'all are colorblind and that child will have the exact same experience in life as you and your white wife. 

[Destiny]

@formergothardite, thanks for the comment about Fannie Lou Hamer by the way. I'd never heard of her either, and I'm now wandering around the internet trying to learn more about her. I'm already appalled by the first paragraph that talks about her being given a hysterectomy without consent.