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"To Think or Not to Think?" A fundie guide to crushes. (Spoiler: the answer is "don't think")


Rachel333

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Rachel333

This is just a post from a magazine for stay at home daughters. http://shiningstarsmagazine.com/to-think-or-not-to-think-handling-romantic-attraction/#more-10506

Basically, you should think about boys as little as possible. I think she's even saying that if you have a crush you should tell your father and get his permission.

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There may be a young man whom we do not know very well or hardly ever talk to, and yet we find ourselves dealing with an attraction to him in a very powerful way.  Help!
[...]
The first and most important piece of advice is to talk to our parents – especially our fathers. [...] 
We wouldn’t dream of starting a relationship or even marrying someone without our father’s permission, guidance and blessing.  Similarly, we should not have a relationship in our hearts without our father’s permission, guidance and blessing.  In learning how to confide in our fathers, we are also learning how to confide in our future husbands.

Don't talk to your friends about your crush.

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I also recommend caution in discussing with friends which young man you like and why.  Not only will those friends know that our hearts were not completely saved for your husband, they may become the wife of those young men.  

Be careful about prayer

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We also must be careful about praying for particular young men, even if we do not have a special attraction to them. [...] In the case of a young woman praying for a young man, it is possible to create an emotional bond and attachment.

If your crush is someone that you have to see

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When you see him, be polite but avoid conversation.

Don’t watch him – don’t try to make eye contact.  Eye contact is one of the biggest tools of attraction.  Guard your eyes!

When you are not in the same place with him, don’t try to find out where he is or what he is doing.  Don’t look at pictures of him.  Try to keep him totally out of your mind, except for when it is impossible (like when you’re in the same place).

Don’t come into contact with him (visual, physical or even in your thoughts) on your own initiative.  If your family is doing something where you would come in contact with him, then okay – you’re part of the family.  But don’t be the initiator.

Oh, fundies. With rules like these it's no wonder so many fundie families are having a hard time getting their kids married.

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SrMaryEloquentia

Wow. This is really toxic, especially No 1 and 2 combined. So you're experiencing your first sexual attraction to some other person, and instead of talking about it to your friends, you are supposed to go to your dad. How is that not squicky?!

What about boys, by the way? Shouldn't they report to their mom?

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CTRLZero

In browsing some of the articles, this group picks and chooses various beliefs and customs, including the practice of betrothal.  No wonder they don't want young women thinking about boys; they are lucky to meet them before they are covenanted for life!  I hope they are a cut above that pervert, Vaughn Ohlman, but who knows.  Sigh...I have such a hard time with these concepts.

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this past June, Joel talked to my Dad about his desire to marry me and he and my parents communicated without my knowledge for two months.  I had no idea Joel was even interested in me!

 

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nickelodeon

Making eye contact with boys makes you a nasty ol' slattern! Good girls are always aloof, impolite and ungenerous - don't even think about praying for a dude!

You see this a lot on fundie wedding websites where the kids go on about how they didn't give a shit about each other, regarded the other as less significant than the scum under their shoe, etc... until Daddy Jesus revealed his awesome plan for their lives!  Alternately, when we wonder why the Botkinettes/Maxwells/etc are still single, this prescribed prickly attitude may have something to do with it.

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DomWackTroll

So, so, so unhealthy. Denying a young woman her perfectly natural sexual feelings is just playing with fire. Yes, many-- probably most-- will stay and lead the lives of quiet desperation that their patriarchs have designed for them. But the ones who run-- with no money, job skills, or sexual education-- might as well have signs around their necks that say, "HEY, PREDATORY MALES: HERE I AM!" 

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Grimalkin

    Does anybody here remember that book called All The Rules, or something like that? It was basically saying you get men by being aloof and ignoring them. Sort of funny. 

      How is it not creepy that a man was talking to a woman's parents for two months about marriage and she had no clue he was interested? There is so much wrong with that I don't feel like going through that in depth right now, but it is as if she is only property and her feelings don't matter at all.

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Marian the Librarian
58 minutes ago, Grimalkin said:

    Does anybody here remember that book called All The Rules, or something like that? It was basically saying you get men by being aloof and ignoring them. Sort of funny. 

    

"The Rules," by Ellen Fein and Sherrie Schneider, originally published February 14, 1995 - ah, I remember it well. Copies flew from library shelves, and waiting lists were long.

Here's a link from a 2015 article about it, and its subsequent companion titles (warning: take any required hypertension medications first):

http://www.refinery29.com/2015/02/81129/the-rules-dating-book

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The Rules may have evolved since 1995, but the Rules Girl looks the same: She is aloof and demure. She wears only high heels and push-up bras with "big (three-inch) hoop earrings" and a "chunky gold watch." She waxes, uses contacts ("try blue and green shades!"), and dyes her hair blonde. She doesn't return calls, doesn't blab about her career success ("try to let him shine!"), and doesn't drink so much that she lets herself get raped. She waits at least four dates to move beyond kissing, because when she does finally have sex with a guy, "there is no going back," Ellen and Sherrie remind her. "You should continue to sleep with him if you have already. Otherwise, he will think you are spiteful."

 

Edited by Marian the Librarian
Adding quoted italics
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DomWackTroll

"You should continue to sleep with him if you have already. Otherwise, he will think you are spiteful."

Yeah, getting a little rage-y here. 

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Gosh, don't people think for a moment what this teaching will cause, what happens if girls take this to heart  (like I did as an impressionable adolescent). Pure social dysfunction/paralyzation. Body language that screams, "Stay away from me. Don't talk to me". This can't be the way God made it to be. Girls shouldn't have to avoid eye contact/conversations/friendships with guys so as to be impeccable "pure".

And girls that don't follow this strict code of behavior will be judged as flirtatious or loose. Any interaction between people of opposite sexes will be hyper-magnified and scrutinized. Ie. Did she just hand him a glass of water??? Is there something going on????"

At one purity conference, they highlighted the example of a guy who didn't even look twice at a girl he liked and how that was so laudable.

If you have a crush, you're supposed to pray until it disappears and you're supposed to tell it to your parents, making it such a big, stinking, embarrassing deal. A crush is just a crush. It's no big deal, it's natural! It doesn't mean you want to marry someone, especially at 13 or 14. Goodness!! Talk about taking things overboard. At such as young age, when you're so self-aware and sensitive, it is really damaging!

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Snarfblatt

I'm sorry but I'm now picturing teenage me telling my poor father about every single one of my teenage crushes. 

Snarfblatt: Daddy I need to talk to you

 Father: Of course Snarfles. 

Snarfblatt: I have a crush on Insert Random Classmate's name

Father: Oh dear Lord not again. This is the eighteenth one this week. Please STOP confiding in me. 

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smittykins

One question I've never seen answered by these people is, what if Daddy is dead or otherwise not in the picture?  Who is supposed to take over his role?  My guess would be grandfather/uncle or even youth pastor(squick).

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Gossamer1

 

2 hours ago, Marian the Librarian said:

, and doesn't drink so much that she lets herself get raped.

:angry-banghead:  I always thought the people that wrote the book were just jokes. Now I think I hate them.

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lawfulevil

This seems like a recipe for shit getting blown way out of proportion, Romeo & Juliet style.

I remember my adolescent crushes and I don't feel anything about those people anymore unless we were otherwise friends (and I don't feel anything but friendship for them). I think all my pieces are intact, thanks. Because, you know, I could actually talk to them and get to know the real person, not the imaginary person I projected onto them- and real people aren't perfect.

Adolescents ALREADY often have a hard time putting things into perspective because everything seems really important the first time or few times. I remember the first time I drove a car down to the second (all 3 minutes of it), but I drove 2 hours home from Thanksgiving on Friday and nothing was particularly memorable about it.

Confessing to Daddy, obsessing about NOT thinking about the boy (don't think of a purple elephant!) and avoiding eye contact or even looking at him... all the while working on your hope chest and making a list of qualities you want in a husband? All this fuss makes a silly adolescent crush sound like an Extremely Important Matter, not the temporary and soon-forgotten thing it really is.

Edited by lawfulevil
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1 hour ago, smittykins said:

One question I've never seen answered by these people is, what if Daddy is dead or otherwise not in the picture?  Who is supposed to take over his role?  My guess would be grandfather/uncle or even youth pastor(squick).

That's an easy one commonly understood in fundie circles. Ie. the Principle 1 of Basic Seminar. It's about always having headship/authority/protection.

 

Your assumption is correct. In the absence of a father, the young person is supposed to request the protection of a godly leader/couple ie. relatives, pastor, spiritual mentor. Especially to oversee/guide the arranged marriage courtship process. A  married couple is preferred to male or female mentors (it'll be easier to confess your crush to your pastor's wife as opposed to your pastor). They are seen to have more "shared wisdom".  

In some circles it's more acceptable for mothers to have authority roles in the absense of a father (ATI maybe). In VF circles that would be far less likely IMO.

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(Sorry if I'm not supposed to include pictures here, hope I'm not breaking any r ules)

@Smittykins

Check out these pages from the Basic Seminar Handbook:

gothardumbrella.jpg

(Doesn't say what happens if your authority has unrighteous wishes...)

 

 

umbrella3.jpg

(Again, what if someone abuses their authority? This is never addressed except to say that if your authority is abusive, God will turn miraculous save your through your submission)

 

 

hammer.png

(In the Basic Seminar, the hammer is the father and the chisel is the mother)

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Granwych
11 hours ago, Grimalkin said:

Does anybody here remember that book called All The Rules, or something like that? It was basically saying you get men by being aloof and ignoring them. Sort of funny. 

It never ceases to amaze me how many non-fundie  treat the advice in this book as the gospel.

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9 hours ago, smittykins said:

One question I've never seen answered by these people is, what if Daddy is dead or otherwise not in the picture?  Who is supposed to take over his role?  My guess would be grandfather/uncle or even youth pastor(squick).

Captain Brett made a typically awful video about this - a young man is about to go on a date, but the Captain saves him, and explains Courtship, with the help of his (currently incarcerated) son Brett Alan Smith Jnr and wife, who tell him how they were guided by their wise and god-fearing father.  I'll paraphrase what happens next:

"But I don't have a father, what do I do?" he asks?  Brett Jnr says "Well, then I'd choose the cleverest, most wisest, most god-fearing, most wonderful man I know, and ask him"... So off the lad trots to ask Captain Brett!!

TL;DR?  I'm pretty sure whichever patriarch we're talking about should say the fatherless child should turn to him as their headship.

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ophelia
1 hour ago, Lurky said:

Captain Brett made a typically awful video about this - a young man is about to go on a date, but the Captain saves him, and explains Courtship, with the help of his (currently incarcerated) son Brett Alan Smith Jnr and wife, who tell him how they were guided by their wise and god-fearing father.  I'll paraphrase what happens next:

"But I don't have a father, what do I do?" he asks?  Brett Jnr says "Well, then I'd choose the cleverest, most wisest, most god-fearing, most wonderful man I know, and ask him"... So off the lad trots to ask Captain Brett!!

TL;DR?  I'm pretty sure whichever patriarch we're talking about should say the fatherless child should turn to him as their headship.

I NEED to watch this video!!! I just can't get enough of this trainwreck.

Edited by ophelia
typo.
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dairyfreelife
13 hours ago, Bretta said:

(Sorry if I'm not supposed to include pictures here, hope I'm not breaking any r ules)

@Smittykins

Check out these pages from the Basic Seminar Handbook:

gothardumbrella.jpg

(Doesn't say what happens if your authority has unrighteous wishes...)

 

 

umbrella3.jpg

(Again, what if someone abuses their authority? This is never addressed except to say that if your authority is abusive, God will turn miraculous save your through your submission)

 

 

hammer.png

(In the Basic Seminar, the hammer is the father and the chisel is the mother)

In the last picture my first thought was "so, father hits mother, who breaks the children?" 

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louisa05

A friend of mine was raised evangelical but got into some of the trendy early 90s courtship stuff (Josh Harris et al) after college. Before her wedding, at age 29 with a 38 year old groom, she confided to me that she was "having a really hard time" because she was very attracted to her soon to be husband and couldn't make herself stop feeling that way. I was a bit confused by this being a matter of distress or that she should bury that feeling. She explained that she should not be physically attracted to him until after the wedding or it was "lust" and she was sinning. I about lost it. I told her that it certainly was not lust and that if she were not attracted to him, she shouldn't be marrying him. 

Another friend was raised in full on purity culture and had a lot of issues with sex after her marriage. Her brother's wife was even worse. She confided in my friend after her wedding--because she had no married friends to talk to and felt it would be a sin to bring it up with unmarried women--that she had refused to let her new husband touch her on their honeymoon because "losing" her "purity" was so upsetting to her. It was what had made her "special for him" and basically, in her mind, defined her worth as a Christian. 

This kind of stuff is so incredibly damaging. And if you start with "never ever have a crush or look at someone of the opposite gender", it is not a long journey to get where these women ended up. 

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PennySycamore

@louisa05, I ran into that attitude (no attraction prior to marriage) in some bullshit magazine directed at leaders in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal that my husband got in the early 80s.  I knew the minute I read it that bit of "advice" was total crap.

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11 hours ago, ophelia said:

I NEED to watch this video!!! I just can't get enough of this trainwreck.

Sadly for us, he removed it from the web, or made it private.  It's a little bit weird - he's talking about how Brett Alan Smith Jr is innocent of child rape, but he's still scrubbed the videos showing off how BAS Jnr and Katie Morton's marriage came from the extreme courtship side)

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louisa05
1 hour ago, PennySycamore said:

@louisa05, I ran into that attitude (no attraction prior to marriage) in some bullshit magazine directed at leaders in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal that my husband got in the early 80s.  I knew the minute I read it that bit of "advice" was total crap.

I heard a priest on Catholic radio (hardly a refuge for liberal Catholics) not long ago explaining that looking is not lust, finding someone attractive is not lust, and that certainly being attracted to your spouse or significant other is not lust. Sadly, noticing someone (anyone) of the opposite sex and thinking they are attractive is the definition of lust in the evangelical world as I've been around it. In some circles, it leads to women purposely trying not to be attractive even to their own spouse. The same friend who dabbled in Josh Harris was appalled when we suggested lingerie shopping for her honeymoon as she felt she wasn't supposed to try to look sexy for her husband, that would have been wrong, too. And I've known hardcore evangelical women that shop for modest underwear and even the suggestion of having something less than modest for certain times is scandalous to them.

 

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ophelia
9 hours ago, Lurky said:

Sadly for us, he removed it from the web, or made it private.  It's a little bit weird - he's talking about how Brett Alan Smith Jr is innocent of child rape, but he's still scrubbed the videos showing off how BAS Jnr and Katie Morton's marriage came from the extreme courtship side)

damn! well maybe he isn't as convinced of his sons innocence as he wants the rest of the world to believe.

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