Another Duggar courting- Joy and Austin, Pt3

[JermajestyDuggar]

16 minutes ago, Chickenbutt said:

@freedom_for_allProbably in the early 1920's. She was living in rural Oklahoma, in a shack with a dirt floor as all "sooners" did. There was no town, no doctor and obviously no birth control. When I became pregnant I talked to her about it, wanting to know if there was something she knew about. I wonder to this day about Rh factor, pertussis, and pneumonia.

It could have been so many things. From what my great grandparents have said, there were so many ways babies and young children could die back then. Especially if you were poor, weren't well fed, and didn't have access to doctors. It makes me glad to have given birth and raise children in the 21st century. Modern medicine is amazing and has saved so many lives. And this is why the fundies that refuse to vaccinate, avoid doctors, or use essential oils as cure alls make me sick. 

[Fluffles]

The reason i think that Jim Bob likes Michelle being pregnant is that it shows that he is still "getting it" on a regular basis. He is always alluding to sex. If he was my Dad, I would be embarrassed by him - I think Jana was in one episode. Isn't his favourite saying "be fruitful and multiply"

[samurai_sarah]

18 minutes ago, Fluffles said:

The reason i think that Jim Bob likes Michelle being pregnant is that it shows that he is still "getting it" on a regular basis.

(snip)

What have I done to you, for you to put that picture in my head? Why?

[trustworthy]

Okay, I just watched installment 2, 3, 4, and 5 of the World's Strictest Parents thing and I feel better about the Forsyths.  Since I'd been all freaky and weirded out in a previous post after watching installment 1, I had to update.  They looked awful in installment 1, but actually seem pretty caring and kind in subsequent ones.  That gives me a modicum of comfort.  I still wish she was marrying into a Paine-type family where siblings seem to have a range of Christian views/lifestyles instead of into this family, but I'm feeling some hope.  If birth control is an option for Joy because Austen was taught it's okay and REALLY doesn't want 19 children, then she's actually way ahead of her sisters in a big way.

[Carm_88]

4 hours ago, Fluffles said:

The reason i think that Jim Bob likes Michelle being pregnant is that it shows that he is still "getting it" on a regular basis. He is always alluding to sex. If he was my Dad, I would be embarrassed by him - I think Jana was in one episode. Isn't his favourite saying "be fruitful and multiply"

Ugh. That's not a picture that I want tonight. I feel so dirty. 

[CharlieInCharge]

13 hours ago, alba said:

 

Google tells me you're correct, but it was the 1700s, not 1800s. She was "only" pregnant 27 times, though. And THEN her husband went on to have a further 18 children (8 pregnancies) with his second wife.

Linky: http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/most-prolific-mother-ever

 

Does no one else find this incredibly suspect. I understand it's accepted by Guinness, but seriously? It's all based on one account from a monastery in the 1700s. I get including it with an asterisk or something, but there should be an entry for the most verifiable births or something in the more modern era with multiple sources. I've seen this referenced in actual academic articles and it bugs the heck out of me. Sorry, this is a personal vendetta that I've always wanted to share. 

[trustworthy]

7 minutes ago, CharlieInCharge said:

Does no one else find this incredibly suspect. I understand it's accepted by Guinness, but seriously? It's all based on one account from a monastery in the 1700s. I get including it with an asterisk or something, but there should be an entry for the most verifiable births or something in the more modern era with multiple sources. I've seen this referenced in actual academic articles and it bugs the heck out of me. Sorry, this is a personal vendetta that I've always wanted to share. 

I know.  There's a list on Wikipedia of the most births by a woman and you simply can't trust them until you get to about 1860s America or Britain.  What happened in 1743 in a remote Chinese village is simply not reliable. Here's the list:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_the_most_children

[JermajestyDuggar]

13 minutes ago, CharlieInCharge said:

Does no one else find this incredibly suspect. I understand it's accepted by Guinness, but seriously? It's all based on one account from a monastery in the 1700s. I get including it with an asterisk or something, but there should be an entry for the most verifiable births or something in the more modern era with multiple sources. I've seen this referenced in actual academic articles and it bugs the heck out of me. Sorry, this is a personal vendetta that I've always wanted to share. 

I've always found it unbelievable as well. How is it possible he married two women who hyper ovulate? The second wife didn't have any singleton pregnancies either. So much of it is hard to believe. Along with the vast majority making it to adulthood. How did this man feed all these children? Most people had a few kids die in childhood when they only had 10 kids total. How did this guy get such healthy kids? How did he find a wife that could carry high order multiples without dying and give birth to healthy babies? It's just one unlikely circumstance on top of another on top of another. 

[Carm_88]

30 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I've always found it unbelievable as well. How is it possible he married two women who hyper ovulate? The second wife didn't have any singleton pregnancies either. So much of it is hard to believe. Along with the vast majority making it to adulthood. How did this man feed all these children? Most people had a few kids die in childhood when they only had 10 kids total. How did this guy get such healthy kids? How did he find a wife that could carry high order multiples without dying and give birth to healthy babies? It's just one unlikely circumstance on top of another on top of another. 

To me it sounds like a tall tale, that got repeated enough through the generations that it was believed. 

[Whydon'ttheyspeakintongues]

Poor Michelle - she doesn't even make the Wikipedia list of most prolific mothers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_the_most_children

Jim Bob is going to need to convert to Christian-based polygamy if he wants to start competing with Genghis Khan!

But I note that most of these were before the widespread availability of contraception - meaning very few people actively choose to have 19 or more children.  The fact is that women have always had the ability to have huge numbers of children but many died in the process - the women listed here are the lucky ones who survived it all.

I really hope that the younger Duggar women take some time to listen to medical opinions regarding their options for family planning. After all, this family hides quite a lot from the public so no-one needs to know if they are taking the pill etc....

 

[alba]

I've always found it unbelievable as well. How is it possible he married two women who hyper ovulate? The second wife didn't have any singleton pregnancies either. So much of it is hard to believe. Along with the vast majority making it to adulthood. How did this man feed all these children? Most people had a few kids die in childhood when they only had 10 kids total. How did this guy get such healthy kids? How did he find a wife that could carry high order multiples without dying and give birth to healthy babies? It's just one unlikely circumstance on top of another on top of another. 

Actually, that bit seems pretty likely to me. I don't know about Russia in particular, but in Europe in general it was historically not uncommon for a widower to marry an unmarried relative of his wife's. Mr Alba's great-grandfather, in fact, had three wives, with the first two being sisters and the third being the niece of the first two.

So it doesn't strike me as terribly implausible for a man to marry two women who hyperovulate, as it does run in families, so I just assumed he married women who were related to one another.

That being said, I find it unlikely that a woman could give birth to multiple sets of triplets/quadruplets in the 18th century and no one died.

[JermajestyDuggar]

11 hours ago, Whydon'ttheyspeakintongues said:

Poor Michelle - she doesn't even make the Wikipedia list of most prolific mothers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_the_most_children

Jim Bob is going to need to convert to Christian-based polygamy if he wants to start competing with Genghis Khan!

But I note that most of these were before the widespread availability of contraception - meaning very few people actively choose to have 19 or more children.  The fact is that women have always had the ability to have huge numbers of children but many died in the process - the women listed here are the lucky ones who survived it all.

I really hope that the younger Duggar women take some time to listen to medical opinions regarding their options for family planning. After all, this family hides quite a lot from the public so no-one needs to know if they are taking the pill etc....

 

After reading this list I am going to say I don't believe the top nine women listed gave birth to that many living children. And they are all claims from very long ago when there are no real records. Suddenly when there are real records of these women giving birth, the numbers go WAY down and it's only twins and singletons. And lots of children not surviving into adulthood. 

[crazysnark]

Do we know that the Forsyths are ok with birth control? Sure they only had 2 kids but maybe the dad had a vasectomy and they didn't have 10,000 to fork over for a reversal. HIs sister got pregnant right after marriage so I assume they were taught birth control is wrong. If this has  been discussed I am sorry

[JillyO]

14 hours ago, trustworthy said:

I know.  There's a list on Wikipedia of the most births by a woman and you simply can't trust them until you get to about 1860s America or Britain.  What happened in 1743 in a remote Chinese village is simply not reliable. Here's the list:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_the_most_children

'Cause there's no civilization outside of America or Britain?

(I kind of get what you're trying to say, but that's a pretty limited worldview you're displaying here.)

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

13 hours ago, Whydon'ttheyspeakintongues said:

I really hope that the younger Duggar women take some time to listen to medical opinions regarding their options for family planning. After all, this family hides quite a lot from the public so no-one needs to know if they are taking the pill etc....

 

Exactly, it is NO ONES business, but Joy & Austin (because this is their thread), if they use any form of birth control.  I hope all the girls, either born into or married into fundamentalism know that really do have a choice in how many times they get pregnant (aside from fertility issues). While I think a married couple should discuss birth control together and it should be a decision they make together, for the most part, it is ultimately the woman who has to be pregnant and in fundy circles the woman who has to care for the child. So it should be HER choice how many she has. 

[trustworthy]

19 minutes ago, JillyO said:

'Cause there's no civilization outside of America or Britain?

(I kind of get what you're trying to say, but that's a pretty limited worldview you're displaying here.)

No there is, but outside of a few places -- Europe, North America, Austraila, say -- the scientific as well as civic record keeping might not have been there until 20th century or so.  Now that record keeping is pretty much everywhere, but in the 1800s it hadn't made the rounds yet.  So I didn't fully list all the places, just made a quick jot in haste and those two came to mind.  My dad came from an educated family but they were Armenians in Turkey under the last of the Ottoman Empire.  If my grandfather hadn't been smart enough to go out of his way to make sure there was a birth certificate there would be no civic record of my dad's birth.  That was 1918.  But because it was Turkey on the verge of WWI, a lot of births went unregistered.

[MarblesMom]

On 11/25/2016 at 11:03 PM, Whydon'ttheyspeakintongues said:

Jim Bob is going to need to convert to Christian-based polygamy if he wants to start competing with Genghis Khan!

<small voice> we call Marbles Dingus Khan.  I hope the D's are ok with a new name for THEIR leader.

[Lurky]

17 hours ago, trustworthy said:

No there is, but outside of a few places -- Europe, North America, Austraila, say -- the scientific as well as civic record keeping might not have been there until 20th century or so. 

You didn't say "Europe, North America, Australia", you said USA and UK. 

Europe is a lot bigger than the UK, and countries like France, Spain, Italy, the Netherlands, Germany etc were all civilised too - and countries like (just one example) India also had science, education and civic structures... Not to mention the fact that a doctor's record from 1860s Buenos Aires or Mumbai or  is still more convincing than an unverified village/small-town story from England or eg Kansas at the time.

 

[eleanora3]

21 hours ago, crazysnark said:

Do we know that the Forsyths are ok with birth control? Sure they only had 2 kids but maybe the dad had a vasectomy and they didn't have 10,000 to fork over for a reversal. HIs sister got pregnant right after marriage so I assume they were taught birth control is wrong. If this has  been discussed I am sorry

A vasectomy is a form of birth control so I think it would still count

[JermajestyDuggar]

19 minutes ago, eleanora3 said:

A vasectomy is a form of birth control so I think it would still count

Yes, but it's possible they got the vasectomy or tubes tied before their conversion. 

I said it before, there could be lots of things we don't know about these people and only having two kids doesn't tell us much. Maybe they have secondary infertility. Maybe she had a bunch of miscarriages. Who knows? 

But what we do know is that these people are fundies who socialize with people who are extremely anti birth control. So it's not far out to think that they are also anti birth control. 

[JesusCampSongs]

21 hours ago, crazysnark said:

Do we know that the Forsyths are ok with birth control? Sure they only had 2 kids but maybe the dad had a vasectomy and they didn't have 10,000 to fork over for a reversal. HIs sister got pregnant right after marriage so I assume they were taught birth control is wrong. If this has  been discussed I am sorry

I think there are three possibilities here:

1. They're okay with birth control and chose to only have two children.

2. They're not okay with birth control and only have two children due to subfertility, medical issues, etc.

3. They're not okay with birth control but didn't come to that belief until after one or both of them had been sterilized. Then, they either couldn't afford reversing said sterilizations(s) or they attempted it and were unsuccessful. Stats on vasectomy and tubal reversals aren't great now; I'm sure they were worse twenty years ago.

And even though door #1 is the best of the options, there are plenty of fundies out there who are fine with at least some forms of birth control while still holding Dominionist views on other subjects. So I'm not that optimistic either way.

[JermajestyDuggar]

23 minutes ago, JesusCampSongs said:

I think there are three possibilities here:

1. They're okay with birth control and chose to only have two children.

2. They're not okay with birth control and only have two children due to subfertility, medical issues, etc.

3. They're not okay with birth control but didn't come to that belief until after one or both of them had been sterilized. Then, they either couldn't afford reversing said sterilizations(s) or they attempted it and were unsuccessful. Stats on vasectomy and tubal reversals aren't great now; I'm sure they were worse twenty years ago.

And even though door #1 is the best of the options, there are plenty of fundies out there who are fine with at least some forms of birth control while still holding Dominionist views on other subjects. So I'm not that optimistic either way.

My parents were looking into reversing permanent BC back in the late 80s early 90s and success rates weren't great. Especially for the money involved. So they didn't do it. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

Regardless of what parents believe, what Joy & Austin, Jinger & Jeremy, Jill & Derrick, Jessa & Ben & Josh and Anna will form their own opinions. Josh & Anna may be done, hopefully Anna has said NO MORE babies or even Josh has said this, as four is more than enough.  Jill & Derrick are going to have a good spacing between Izzy & #2 at least 2 years, so who knows how many total they will have. I find it impossible to believe that all 4 of the married couples and the 1 courting couple will have 6, 8 or more kids.  I can see J & D and J& J with 3 or 4 kids each. I'd be more shocked than not if Anna gets pregnant in the next year.  I think if they have any more kids it won't be for a year or two at lest. Not sure about Joy & Austin yet but she is so young, I find it hard to see her having ANY kids yet.  Now Jessa, her I see having 10 or 12 kids more if possible. 

[Funwithfundies]

So my 18 year old came home from college for Thanksgiving...with purple hair.  Every single extended family member got a kick out of it - even the politically conservative ones.  

Joy will never have the pleasure of doing something 'silly' like coloring her hair a crazy color on a whim.  Inevitable given the way she was  raised, of course, but it still makes me sad for her.

[nausicaa]

Wow, I knew Genghis Khan had a lot of offspring, but according to that Wikipedia link"

Quote

Genetic analysis has shown he is an ancestor of 0.5% of the world's population