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16strong

My fundie Catholic wedding experience

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16strong

This post is late, I know. I promised in AYTFJ I would put it up almost two months ago. Unfortunately, I didn't end up having time before I went out of the country a week later, and got busy when I got back. For those of you that don't read there, a very good college friend of mine converted to Catholicism, and sent me the invitation below, featuring required modest dress for a (Traditional Catholic? wedding). I still have no idea what this church or wedding was all about, so hopefully you guys can help me dissect the info I collected. I apologize in advance for the very long length of this post/thread. I’m going to try to split them up, as I’ll be outlining the program and including a few of the sung prayers for maximum fundie exposure. I don’t have everything finished and typed up, but by this point, starting the post will help me finish, haha.


The wedding itself was held in a small converted Baptist church. Unfortunately, I forgot to take a picture of my "fundie modest" look, but rest assured no frumpers were involved. When my friends and I entered the church, the priest took one look at me and said "nice hat!" 


Before we entered the sanctuary, we were given a 32-page wedding program. One of my friends who has alopecia was accosted with a cheap white doily, which was promptly pinned to her headscarf. Yes, there was a sea of shapeless dollar store doilies in the sanctuary. A few hats, couple of head scarves, a girl frantically accosting people in the parking lot for a sweater, and two heathen hussies that just didn't care about defrauding men with their knees. I took the time before entering to grab every material and pamphlet available. I will post a couple of things down below, but in the interest of not posting 30+docs, here is a link to a recreational pamphlet I picked up: http://www.sspx.org/en/publications/newsletters/regina-coeli-report-aug-sep-2016

Feel free to peruse the rest of the website and give your thoughts. I'm uploading a church newsletter below.


My memory here is a bit hazy now, but iirc, the altar boys (one very old, and one very young, oddly) entered and curtsied to the altar before bringing out some wedding supplies, and then curtsying again and shuffling out sideways. The wedding procession: The priest entered facing the altar and the bridesmaids and groomsmen entered before the bride. The bride was accompanied by her father. The bridesmaids wore long sleeveless low back dresses covered by a shawl tied in the back, and long white lace headscarves. The processional was a very funereal Bach organ piece, Schmucke dich, o lieve seele. The music throughout was provided by organ and a small choir in the balcony. All the music was in Latin, of course. 


The ceremony itself was mostly in Latin, however, the priest thankfully took pains to explain the ceremony in English. I sat on the groom's side, and got lucky enough to sit beside a large group of heathens that did not kneel for prayer. The ceremony began with the exhortation prior to marriage read by the priest. The order of marriage was as follows: I _____ wilt thou take _____, here present, for thy lawful husband/wife, according to the Rite of our holy Mother the Church. I, _____, take thee, _____, for my lawful husband/wife, to have and to hold, from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, until death do us part. The priest then spoke in Latin, I join you together in marriage, in the name of the father, and of the son, and of the holy ghost, amen.
Next was the weird part. The priest sprinkled the couple with holy water along with another prayer, and then took a silver spoon with holy water and sprinkled the rings three times. The young altar boy kissed his hand before taking the spoon, curtsying to the altar, and removing it from the room.


"With this ring I thee wed; this gold and silver I thee give; with my body I thee worship; and with all my worldly goods I thee endow. in the name of the father, (moves ring to first finger) and of the son, (moves ring to second finger) and of the holy ghost, (moves ring to ring finger) Amen.


According to the program, the priest removed his cope and vests with the Chasuble to begin the wedding mass. The couple kneeled. The mass of the Catechumens began. "The "mass of Catechumens" dates back to then beginning of the church where psalms were read or sung to show honor to God. In the earliest of Christian times, this was the only part of the mass where nonchristians were allowed to participate."


Next post will be some of the wedding mass outlines I've made.

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Edited by 16strong
Spacing

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kpmom

I assumed this was a rogue, pre Vatican II church, but it does mention Church Law.  Is it recognized by Rome?  (Sorry if you already covered this in AYTFJ.  I don't read there very often).

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louisa05
7 minutes ago, kpmom said:

I assumed this was a rogue, pre Vatican II church, but it does mention Church Law.  Is it recognized by Rome?  (Sorry if you already covered this in AYTFJ.  I don't read there very often).

The link is to the Society of St Pius X which is officially considered schismatic by Rome. 

 

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16strong
3 minutes ago, kpmom said:

I assumed this was a rogue, pre Vatican II church, but it does mention Church Law.  Is it recognized by Rome?  (Sorry if you already covered this in AYTFJ.  I don't read there very often).

I've literally no idea. The small handful of reviews on Yelp point to schismatic, and that is all I know. I am not greatly familiar with Catholicism, having not been friends with many, and IFB seems to be the fundie flavor near me. This wedding was out of town.

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Cleopatra7

My thoughts based on what was posted thus far:

1. The "curtseys" are called genuflections. You are supposed to genuflect out of respect for Christ in the Eucharist every time when you pass by the tabernacle where the reserve hosts are kept. Much of the genuflection was eliminated after Vatican II, much to the chagrin of traditionalists who think a failure to do so cheapens respect for the Eucharist and Christ in general.

2. Mantillas or chapel veils are the doily things you saw. They are used to for women to show respect for Christ and the angels by covering their hair. They've become a symbol of traditionalist culture, but as far as I've been able to tell, pre-Vatican II women in the US overwhelmingly wore hats, not mantillas in church, except in Louisiana and certain areas with Hispanic influence. 

3. Having SSPX materials in the parish doesn't necessarily mean the parish itself is SSPX. Many traditionalists will use materials from a variety of sources, even if they don't support the position a particular traditional group has. The SSPX publishes a lot of materials, from pre-Vatican II devotional and catechetical material to the writings of Archbishop Lefebvre. Even mainstream conservative Catholics will buy some of their books because they have stuff you can't find anywhere else.

4. Most SSPX chapels tend to not be free standing churches as we commonly understand them. They often meet in other kinds of buildings, like schools and hotels. My impression is that since the SSPX is considered schismatic by Rome, they can't really buy their own buildings and many SSPX congregations tend to be small anyway. It's quite possible that the church you visited is a diocesan approved Latin Mass community. However, even in the approved Latin Mass communities, you find a lot of support for the SSPX and even sedevacantism. 

ETA it's not unusual to find older people as altar servers, whether in mainstream Catholic parishes or traditionalist ones. Of course, at traditionalist parishes, they will all be male. Boys are generally preferred rather than men as altar servers at traditionalist parishes because it serves as a way to pique interest in the priesthood.

 

Edited by Cleopatra7

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Giddy
Carm_88

I have never heard of a wedding mass being said in Latin and I am Catholic. It's possible of course I haven't been to every church but I find it very, very odd. Same with head coverings, I have never been asked to cover my head. And I have been to a great number of Catholic weddings and a great number of masses. 

And that's not the normal communion prayer. 

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16strong
21 minutes ago, Cleopatra7 said:

4. Most SSPX chapels tend to not be free standing churches as we commonly understand them. They often meet in other kinds of buildings, like schools and hotels. My impression is that since the SSPX is considered schismatic by Rome, they can't really buy their own buildings and many SSPX congregations tend to be small anyway. It's quite possible that the church you visited is a diocesan approved Latin Mass community. However, even in the approved Latin Mass communities, you find a lot of support for the SSPX and even sedevacantism. 

 

This church is small and unadvertised. They have no website or Facebook page. It sits in a wealthy neighborhood, so more funding, maybe?

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divadivine

Wow... They're kickin' it old school with the head covering. Just wow. It's like they are going back to pre-Vatican II. Very few parishes have Latin Masses. I can only think of one in Indianapolis that has a Latin Mass every week, and we have 4 deaneries in the city. I think this church is probably a Traditionalist Catholic parish. They teach/follow everything that is pre- Vatican II. 

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Cleopatra7
40 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

I have never heard of a wedding mass being said in Latin and I am Catholic. It's possible of course I haven't been to every church but I find it very, very odd. Same with head coverings, I have never been asked to cover my head. And I have been to a great number of Catholic weddings and a great number of masses. 

And that's not the normal communion prayer. 

The kind of mass celebrated at the chapel in question is generally referred to as the Tridentine Latin Mass (TLM), as it was the form that was promulgated after the Council of Trent during the Counter-Reformation. Most modern traditionalist groups use the missal of 1962, which was the last iteration of the TLM before the reforms of Vatican II ushered in mass in the vernacular. The form of the mass you are familiar with is the Mass of Paul VI, often pejoratively referred to as the Novus Ordo Mass by conservatives and traditionalists, which was released in 1969 and superseded the TLM as the normative form of the Roman Rite. If you want a relatively straightforward and polemic-free history of Vatican II and how it affected Catholic practice in the US, read "The Spirit of Vatican II" by Colleen McDannell.

24 minutes ago, 16strong said:

This church is small and unadvertised. They have no website or Facebook page. It sits in a wealthy neighborhood, so more funding, maybe?

If the church doesn't have any kind of social media presence, my guess is that it is schismatic in some way. All Catholic parishes recognized by a diocese will be listed on the diocesan website and will have a website of their own at the very least. Many SSPX, SSPV, and independent Catholic chapels don't have a web presence, which I assume is because the priests don't have permission to say mass by the bishop and because the mainstream Catholic church is very protective of terms like "Catholic" and "Roman Catholic" and will go after groups it feels are infringing on their "trademark."  There's also the fact like groups like the SSPX really don't want Mr. and Mrs. Regular Catholic coming to their chapels with their two children, wearing football jerseys and hot pants in the presence of  Jesus in the tabernacle. Like ATI, the SSPX is a small group that makes high demands of its adherents, and its members like it like that. Unlike ATI, membership in the SSPX seems pretty stable, so I expect them to be around for awhile, though I think they'll be oddities like the Old Believers in Russian Orthodoxy.

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Palimpsest
1 hour ago, louisa05 said:

The link is to the Society of St Pius X which is officially considered schismatic by Rome. 

 

Yep.  Schismatic and not "in communion" with the Vatican.

@16strong, you attended a quite rare "Traditionalist Catholicism" wedding there.   There are a few die-hard splinter groups.  

Not sure how long they will last but they do seem to be rather tenacious.  There really are Fundies in all denominations.

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Grimalkin

   The sprinkling of water three times stood out to me and reminded me of Russian Orthodoxy. 

     I thought you had to have special permission to hold Latin Mass. Not saying they don't. I wonder if you could look at the diocese website to see if it is a legit church. There is a very conservative parish near me, and most women cover their heads, but it is not required. I have come across some weird Catholic splinter groups hiding in plain sight.

      

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Cleopatra7
Just now, Grimalkin said:

   The sprinkling of water three times stood out to me and reminded me of Russian Orthodoxy. 

     I thought you had to have special permission to hold Latin Mass. Not saying they don't. I wonder if you could look at the diocese website to see if it is a legit church. There is a very conservative parish near me, and most women cover their heads, but it is not required. I have come across some weird Catholic splinter groups hiding in plain sight.

      

Before 2008, a priest had to have permission from his bishop to say the Latin Mass publicly. This was based on an indult (i.e., the pope giving special permission for something that ordinarily wouldn't be allowed) John Paul II gave in 1988 as a way to try to bring the SSPX back into the Vatican fold. However, the SSPX in particular and Latin Mass fans in general had already gained a reputation for being schismatic by the 1980s, so even many conservative bishops were reluctant to provide indults for Latin Masses. In 2008, Benedict XVI issued a motu propio (i.e., a papal executive order) called Summorum Pontificum that said that any priest could use the missal of 1962 any time he wanted. Traditionalists and conservative Latin Mass fans thought this would cause a proliferation of approved TLMs, and it's true the number did increase. However, the TLM is still pretty rare, even when you factor in schismatic groups like the SSPX and the SSPV. I think traditionalists grossly overestimated the demand for the TLM among "regular Catholics," because most of them live in a bubble where everyone they know is "Latin Mass or nothing at all" and then go on sites like Fish Eaters than reinforce this bias. Monsignor Charles Pope made a stir on the Catholic blogsphere when he claimed that TLM attendance numbers had plateaued:

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/msgr-pope/an-urgent-warning-about-the-future-of-the-traditional-latin-mass

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16strong

Thanks for the input so far. The more I read from you guys, the weirder this church sounds. So I guess, without further ado, here is the first outline, and the beginning of the nuptial mass. Folks, this brings us up to a grand total of 14 pages summarized of 32 *bangs head against desk* let me know if you guys want any of the prayers listed below typed out rather than summarized. The Epistle at the bottom of this post is where the real fun begins, fyi. Also, typing on a tablet here, so typos may or may not be included.

The mass for the bridegroom and bride
-    Mass of the catechumens
-    The prayers at the foot of the altar


A.    Psalm 42
B.    The Confiteor
Both priest and the faithful confess their soul’s sinful state before the entire Church and plead for God’s mercy. Bowing low, the priest makes his confession first: then afterwards, the server repeats the Confiteor in the name of all the faithful present.
-    Incensing of the altar
We learn from the Book of Leviticus that Incense was used at a very early period in divine worship. In his Apocalypse, St. John witnessed an angel standing with a golden censer near the altar on which was the Lamb with four-and-twenty elders around him (apoc. vii. 3) He describes this angel to us as offering to God the prayers of the Saints which are symbolized by the incense. The incense symbolizes prayer itself which is kindled by the fire of the love of God.

The priest now turns and moves to the Right side, or “Epistle Side” of the altar, places incense in the thurible, and blesses it using a low voice.
C.    The Introit (Tobias 7.15; 8.19)
The Introit is a verse from the Psalms or the Old Testament and varies according to the feast celebrated, or the season of the year. It stands in close relationship with and is so to say the key to a right understanding of the Epistle and Gospel. It expresses the spirit of the feast or the mystery being celebrated- whether of joy, of gratitude, of hope, of longing, of desire, of petition- and the sentiments which ought principally to animate the hearts of the faithful.


D.    The Kyrie
The Kyrie, which at a High Mass, is said at the Epistle side of the Altar- where the introit was read is a cry of entreaty, whereby the church begs for mercy from the Blessed Trinity.


E.    The Gloria (all stand, sit when priest sits, stand when he stands upon completion)
The Priest frequently turns and salutes the congregation with these words, Dominus vobiscum. This is an ancient form of greeting expressive of every good wish, for whosoever has the Lord with him wants nothing. This versicle and response, repeated so often during Mass, signify the close relation that exists between the priest and the people as he continues to wish on behalf of the faithful who are present, that God may be with them and give them the grace to pray well during the Mass.
(The priest kisses the Altar, turns toward the people, and says: the Lord be with you, and with thy spirit. The priest returns to the Epistle Side of the Altar to read the Collect.)


F.    The Collect
The Collect is the Prayer in which the Priest addresses or invokes God, sums up the desires of the Faithful, and presents them under the form of a petition. The Collect is one of the oldest prayers of the Mass and most were written by the early Popes. It is called the Collect (or collective prayers) because they sum up all the intentions and needs of the Church and of her children.


G.    The Epistle
-    St. Paul (Ephes. 5, 22-33)
Everything in the holy Sacrifice of the Mass proceeds with order: the Priest has first of all expressed the desires and petitions of the assembled Faithful, the Prophet has spoken through the Introit, holy Church has spoken through the Collect, and now we receive instruction prior to the Gospel. The Epistle is generally taken from the New Testament, especially from St. Paul’s Epistles. These Epistles were public communications written by the Apostles to their congregations and sometimes to individuals. They aim at instructing, exhorting, guiding, or correcting the congregation. The TLM contains the ancient order of Epistles and Gospels arranged for the Mass by St. Jerome (died 420 AD). This order was unaltered, but as previously discussed, codified by Pope St. Pius V. (Please be seated)

The real kickers, included because fundiedom:
Lesson from the Epistle of Blessed Paul the Apostle to the Ephesians.
Brethren: Let wives be subject to their husbands as to the Lord; for the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the Church. He is the savior of his body. Therefore, as the Church is subject to Christ, so also let the wives be to their husbands in all things.
Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the Church, and delivered Himself up for it: that He might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life; that He might present it to Himself a glorious Church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such thing, but that it should be holy and without blemish. So also ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself: for no man ever hated his own flesh, but nourisheth it and cherisheth it; as also Christ doth the Church: for we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones.
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and they shall be two in one flesh. This is a great Sacrament, but I speak in Christ and in the Church. Nevertheless, let every one of you in particular love his wife as himself, and let the wife fear her husband. Thanks be to God.
(The Master of Ceremonies, Thurifer and Acolte process with the Missal to the left (Gospel) side of the Altar, and the Priest comes to the centre. He prays silently as the Choir chants the Gradual and Alleluia.
The Gradual: (Ps. 127. 3)
Thy wife shall be as a fruitful vine on the sides of thy house. Thy Children as olive plants round about thy table.

It was at this point the priest went on a very long and inappropriate tangent in spoken English regarding the state of the bride’s uterus and how many baybeez for Christ the couple should be popping out. Hint: lotz. My friends and I were horrified.

To be continued…
 

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GreyhoundFan

Wow, @16strong that is too much. One of our local churches is super conservative, but they don't go quite as far as that one. Of course, the local one isn't affiliated with SSPX. The local church of which I am speaking has Mass in Latin at noon on Sundays and expects congregants to kneel during the entire Mass. English is spoken during the other Masses on the schedule. They do expect women to cover their heads at least symbolically. No girls are accepted as altar servers. They also have an Opus Dei group.

Even though our local diocese is one of the most conservative in the nation (ironic, because this area is deep blue), most of the churches are a little looser and follow the guidelines set down by the Vatican. The only women who wear any sort of head coverings in most of our local churches are much older women, usually 70+ years old. And, as far as dress code, I've seen people in shorts and people in what I think of as semi-formal wear and everything in between. With the exception of the church I mentioned above, all the others perform Mass in English. One thing that is common is that during the wedding Mass, the priest will announce that only Catholics in a state of grace can accept Communion. Most of my Protestant friends are taken aback at that.

Even though I've been to a wide range of Catholic Masses, I've never had to endure anything so conservative. Thankfully.

Edited by GreyhoundFan

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16strong

I just managed to find a site that has mass times for Latin mass churches. Lists it as an SSPX affiliated church.

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Waffle Time
BlackberryGirl

I was confirmed  just before Vatican II. This sounds like every Mass I ever attended in childhood, and several of my sibling's weddings. Kind of made me nostalgic for a few seconds.

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MarblesMom

Wow, this service sounds like quite The Production.

I went to one Catholic wedding and one Catholic funeral.  Neither were in Latin.

During the Catholic wedding, the priest must have mentioned having children about 10 times.  I knew the couple were never headed in that direction, and was kinda stunned they allowed that in their service - but I think they were trying to appease the older generations attending -  married 10 years now and still childless.  Ain't gonna happen.

Both ceremonies passed the collection plate during the service.  I found that odd.

That's all I have to add.

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16strong
3 minutes ago, MarblesMom said:

Wow, this service sounds like quite The Production.

I went to one Catholic wedding and one Catholic funeral.  Neither were in Latin.

During the Catholic wedding, the priest must have mentioned having children about 10 times.  I knew the couple were never headed in that direction, and was kinda stunned they allowed that in their service - but I think they were trying to appease the older generations attending -  married 10 years now and still childless.  Ain't gonna happen.

Both ceremonies passed the collection plate during the service.  I found that odd.

That's all I have to add.

Wow. What is it with these ignorant, insensitive priests? And no collection plate at this wedding, thankfully. I was just so teed off when the priest implied that the couple was less than a family until they had children (plural!). What if they encounter fertility issues, or, god forbid, don't want kids at all? grrrr!!!!!

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Unimpressed
Coconut Flan
12 minutes ago, MarblesMom said:

Both ceremonies passed the collection plate during the service.  I found that odd.

That is odd.  I've never encountered asking for a collection at a wedding or funeral of any denomination much less Catholic. 

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MarblesMom

The woman in the Catholic wedding I attended had uterine cancer at the time of the wedding and a hysterectomy about 2 years into the marriage.

I wonder if the priest can even look them in the eye.

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Dizzy
tankgirl

As far as I know do to the Church rules typically you don't get to chose to remove or change any wording, but wonder if they could if the couple is older or in MarblesMom's case stated, it seems wrong to leave in all the babeez stuff.

I haven't been to any Catholic stuff in a while, but have done weddings and funerals in several Catholic churches and never saw a collection plate. But yeah, they don't want you to take communion if you aren't one of them in good standing. By that regularly going or gone to confession to recently.

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16strong
8 minutes ago, tankgirl said:

As far as I know do to the Church rules typically you don't get to chose to remove or change any wording, but wonder if they could if the couple is older or in MarblesMom's case stated, it seems wrong to leave in all the babeez stuff.

I haven't been to any Catholic stuff in a while, but have done weddings and funerals in several Catholic churches and never saw a collection plate. But yeah, they don't want you to take communion if you aren't one of them in good standing. By that regularly going or gone to confession to recently.

This was precisely my experience. The groom's side was pretty much void of people partaking in communion. The priest was very firm to the guests about not partaking if you weren't a practicing Catholic. I have to wonder how Christians of other denominations felt about this announcement.

1 hour ago, MarblesMom said:

The woman in the Catholic wedding I attended had uterine cancer at the time of the wedding and a hysterectomy about 2 years into the marriage.

I wonder if the priest can even look them in the eye.

That's horrible. I hope someone took the priest aside after the ceremony and gave him a few choice words.

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louisa05
8 hours ago, tankgirl said:

As far as I know do to the Church rules typically you don't get to chose to remove or change any wording, but wonder if they could if the couple is older or in MarblesMom's case stated, it seems wrong to leave in all the babeez stuff.

I haven't been to any Catholic stuff in a while, but have done weddings and funerals in several Catholic churches and never saw a collection plate. But yeah, they don't want you to take communion if you aren't one of them in good standing. By that regularly going or gone to confession to recently.

By canon law, Catholics are only required to go to confession one time a year. More is encouraged but not required for "good standing". That would merely mean being a practicing mass attending Catholic as opposed to someone like my SIL who never goes to mass, says yoga is her religion then infuriates her dad by going to communion at funerals and such. BUT no one, priest or otherwise, stops her. You might notice there are no tests in the communion line

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Unimpressed
Coconut Flan
1 hour ago, louisa05 said:

By canon law, Catholics are only required to go to confession one time a year.

And that is required only if one has committed mortal/grave sin.  Venial sins don't require confession although it is considered a good practice to confess them.

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Cleopatra7
9 hours ago, 16strong said:

This was precisely my experience. The groom's side was pretty much void of people partaking in communion. The priest was very firm to the guests about not partaking if you weren't a practicing Catholic. I have to wonder how Christians of other denominations felt about this announcement.

Even mainstream Catholic parishes will limit communion to Catholics in good standing, but they will allow you to get a blessing from a priest. The rationale is that Protestants don't believe in transubstantiation and other Catholic doctrines pertaining to the Eucharist, so why would they even want to take Communion? However, I do know that sometimes priests will just give communion to whoever approaches them, which leads to much gnashing of teeth from conservatives and traditionists. 

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