Church training your infant

[hoipolloi]

@JemimaPuddle-Duck - thank you for your explanation.

@PopRox - I agree. The now-hidden Instagram post made it clear they were planning to train an 8-month-old BABY to sit through an entire church service. 

 

[Granwych]

I remember reading about one of the Pearls' daughters visiting a family with a 6 month old.  Baby got fussy and wailed.  Mom looked on, and the Pearl daughter told her to "switch him."  Mom hesitated and said that baby was so young.  Pearl daughter said that baby was "old enough to pitch a fit" so it was old enough to be switched.  

Color me horrified.  I can't imagine how said Pearl daughter eventually disciplined her poor kids.

[molecule]

11 minutes ago, Granwych said:

I remember reading about one of the Pearls' daughters visiting a family with a 6 month old.  Baby got fussy and wailed.  Mom looked on, and the Pearl daughter told her to "switch him."  Mom hesitated and said that baby was so young.  Pearl daughter said that baby was "old enough to pitch a fit" so it was old enough to be switched.  

Color me horrified.  I can't imagine how said Pearl daughter eventually disciplined her poor kids.

That is horrible. Fussing and wailing do not constitute "pitching a fit." One of my kids used to have horrible pain with teething--so switching him was supposed to make him stop? That is so awful.

[dairyfreelife]

12 minutes ago, molecule said:

That is horrible. Fussing and wailing do not constitute "pitching a fit." One of my kids used to have horrible pain with teething--so switching him was supposed to make him stop? That is so awful.

Are they such terrible parents to not even pick up on their own infants cries? Babies usually have different cries for their different needs. FYI, my job is working with infants and toddlers 0-3 years of age, usually with infants 6 weeks-15 months and after a little time you start to recognize which cries mean what and I could notice that with a dozen babies in the room. How could they seriously hear their infant fuss and automatically go to "pitching a fit?" Is all crying seen as sinful? Because that is some seriously fucked up bullshit if so. 

[fundiefan]

On ‎11‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 0:36 PM, Hane said:

But, in this circle, having babies/small children who sit quietly through an interminable, stultifying church service is a "look at what a perfect parent I am!" status symbol. Using the nursery would be a sign of defeat in the face of the child's "sin nature."

I'd go so far as to say that having that child at all - the making and birthing of said child - is a status symbol. They make the babies cuz their god said so but they know nothing abut them and don't care to. It's all about 'look at me and how my god blessed me because I am so special'.

If they truly gave a rat's ass about 'blessings from their god' as individuals, 99%  of their child raising beliefs would be tossed out and they'd be individual parents raising individual children who will one day be individual adults.

[MamaJunebug]

On 11/7/2016 at 0:36 PM, Hane said:

But, in this circle, having babies/small children who sit quietly through an interminable, stultifying church service is a "look at what a perfect parent I am!" status symbol. Using the nursery would be a sign of defeat in the face of the child's "sin nature."

Sigh. Yes. It's probably that, plus: "We will soon have 4 under age 5 [or similar] and we'll expect ALL OF THEM to behave perfectly, so we MUST get the first one trained right!"

As others have said, a 40-minute mass or an hour-long service is way different than the 2-hour-long services with "expository preaching" sermons that last between 40 and 60 minutes on average. *I* couldn't sit still through that! 

I'm old, so I well remember sitting thru the hour-long Lutheran worship service without once leaving the sanctuary to go to the bathroom. No kids did. And I recall BigMama JB and other parents taking their young bug out to the narthex if they were too fretful too long. 

However! 20-minute sermon, huge stained glass windows with pictures to think about, rococo(?)-styled altar to look at and wonder how they got all them curlicues in there,  hmm? And really good songs, a vibrant pipe organ and a liturgy that became familiar and enjoyable in a way. 

Altogether different than garden-variety FIC services as they've been described. I'm too jealous of what time I have left, to actually commit two hours of my life to attending one. So far. ;-)

[EmiGirl]

We also have to remember that some fundy church services can go more than just an hour. My husband says they'll regularly go 2 or 3 hours. Way too long for a kid.

[smittykins]

Don't some African-American church services last 2-3 hours?

[fundiefan]

13 minutes ago, smittykins said:

Don't some African-American church services last 2-3 hours?

But they are lively, engaging services.

I haven't been to enough to count but I have been to a few with old friends.

 

[Ali]

I have a relative into FIC church. I once had to attend a Christmas service with her, my parents, my grandma, and my daughter who was a toddler at a time. My mom really didn't want to go to that particular church for reasons I rather not share, but she was going to make her mom happy. She mentioned that to me. I told my mom that I would bring nothing for my daughter to keep her occupied so that she would act in a developmentally appropriate manner and would need to be taken out of the sanctuary. I told my mom that would allow her to take out for me. Well, predictably my mom had to take her out of the sanctuary after only a few minutes. The relative into FIC church later felt the need to give me a little lecture about now there are certain things you need to do to prevent needing to take young children out of the service. I still laugh about it. Yes, I know that are certain things you can bring with you to help keep young children occupied. I am not an idiot. It was all orchestrated on purpose to give my mom an extra Christmas present.

My church has a cry room which a one way window and a nursing mother's room where moms can hear the audio. There is also audio in the foyer and a few screens so someone can see what is going on in the sanctuary. So, anyone can easily pick up on a good portion of the sermon if they feel their baby or young child is making too much noise to remain in the sanctuary. Children are perfectly welcome to stay in the sanctuary if their parents choose to keep them. There is also a nursery and age appropriate classrooms through elementary school. If my church did not have these options, I would probably try putting my baby in the ergo and walking around the back of the church. Before I was comfortable with him being in the nursery, I was frequently able to get him to fall asleep in the ergo and catch most of the sermon while walking him around the foyer or the cry room. Sure, there were times I missed out on parts of sermons because he was fussy. It is part of being a parent.

[Jana814]

I think people who are heavily involved in church particularly the Fundie type churches expect the children in those churches to not act like regular kids. 

[PennySycamore]

@Ali, I love what you did for your mom.  Not only did she get out of a boring service, but got to spend time with her granddaughter.  Sounds like a win-win to me!

[feministxtian]

When we had the grandgirls, they'd get shuffled off to the kids' programming at church. They LOVED it. Our service at that church was about 75 minutes total. They'd go off to "Sunday School" that had age appropriate programming. 

Now...when I was a kid (I grew up Catholic), if I DARED look away from the altar during the mass or wiggled in my seat (at age 4-5-6), my mother would pinch me...inside of the upper arm and then DARE me to cry out (she had a look that could kill). I frequently had bruises on the insides of my arms...deep purple and painful. 

When I took MY kids to church, they usually went to the children's services too...they enjoyed it and I could pay attention to the service. 

[rainbowbabycakes]

My church has a nursery available  for infants-3 during the church service, and a cry room as well, but babies/kids are welcome to stay in the service.  For 4 years through 5th grade they have the option to go to "children's church" after the singing , etc, but before the message begins, where there is an age appropriate Bible study, music, maybe a craft or a video, but again, they don't have to. Kid noise is expected, and on the days when there is no children's service, for whatever reason, we all expect for noise. My pastor encourages participation during the service, and he interacts with the kids as well, sometimes... You can hear my 9 year old on some of our recent recordings, lol.

 

However, I have gone to a very conservative/fundy church before, and some of the littles were "trained" to sit through church... by the wooden spoon in Mama's basket/bag, that the kiddo knew was there  Not all of the parents were like that though

[Granwych]

My sisters and I were quiet in church, especially in the summer--it was so hot and airless that at least two of us would faint.  I can still see one sister being carried out by an usher (we were all under 10 years old then.)

[formergothardite]

One of my saddest memories is growing out of children's church and having to sit during a service. I sure got "trained into it*" but it was pure hell. I used to pray to get sick so I could get out of an hour of mindless boredom.  I simply cannot fathom making a toddler sit through an hour sermon. Maybe I'm just a shit mother, but I never made my 12-18 month olds sit and quiet for an hour at a meal. At restaurants we played, talked, sang and if they got restless we got up and went outside to walk around. The churches I grew up in would have frowned on people expecting toddlers to sit in a service. It was expected that toddlers and preschoolers needed to move and be loud, So strange to me that my IFB churches of the 80's had a more relaxed  view of children than some churches today. Even my mother's IFB church in the 50's didn't expect toddlers and preschoolers to sit in a sermon!

*and by training I don't mean spanking, more like just being made to sit still for long amounts of time while listening to a sermon. 

[Pukingpearl]

I don't normally attend church, but on a whim I forced my two toddlers and husband to go to a Christmas Eve candle light service at a beautiful old UMC church. My three-year-old actually loved everything about it: all the standing and sitting and singing and speaking in unison, definitely the candles. She was like the perfect little churchgoer. My one-year-old loved it for other reasons like kicking the pews and testing the acoustics by making goat sounds during moments of silence and ripping paper. 

I actually don't think it's a bad idea like people have stated to expose infants and  toddlers to scenarios where they in fact can't do anything but be still and shush. It's easy to say it's cruel or whatever, but then it's also easy to complain about how kids act when you're on a plane with them or at a restaurant or in line at target. I know eight-month-olds coo don't understand everything, but they actually do understand "oh other people are quiet and still." That's not to say you should beat them with a pipe or whatever other AWFUL things people do, but you can nurse or play with quiet toys and model listening to a speaker. And then when that fails and they start making goat noises, then you take them out. 

[princessmahina]

I go to an old church (1870s, Catholic) and it doesn't have the room for a cry room or anything like that. The general vibe at my particular church seems to be that if we're going to talk about being pro-life, we're not going to get mad at babies for acting like...babies. Or toddlers. Or other young-ish children. No one cares if a person takes their baby and walks up and down a side aisle with them or hangs out in the back. If they cry or screech a bit (or a lot), no one blinks an eye because frankly, there's tons of babies and it's a common occurrence. Most people bring a snack (the service nearly always ends at an hour and fifteen minutes on the dot) and/or soft toys for their kids. 

I really don't get the expectation that someone should be perfectly still for such an extended period of time. Hell, I'm almost 25 and I can't even sit perfectly still for that long. I'm terribly fidgety and I've observed that most other people don't remain static either. It seems unreasonable for any human, much less a tiny one. 

[formergothardite]

8 hours ago, Pukingpearl said:

It's easy to say it's cruel or whatever, but then it's also easy to complain about how kids act when you're on a plane with them or at a restaurant or in line at target.

In planes, restaurants and Target lines are toddlers/babies expected to sit perfectly still and quiet? Hell I'm not sitting still and quiet in those situations and I spent my childhood being trained to sit still and quiet! I talk with people, laugh and squirm around. With my kids in situations where like long lines or planes, I'm talking to them and entertaining them. I never made my toddlers sit still through an hour meal. 

8 hours ago, Pukingpearl said:

I know eight-month-olds coo don't understand everything, but they actually do understand "oh other people are quiet and still."

Actually they don't, that isn't a skill that develops till closer to 15 months and some children won't have the impulse control to actually comply until the age of two*. We are talking about training babies to be quiet and still. Babies and toddlers.  I babysat my 14 month old nephew a couple of weeks ago and can't fathom trying to train him to sit still and quiet through an hour sermon. And why would I? I would be asking him to do something many adults can barely do. 

*at least according to my kids' pediatrician when I was a first time mom and all flustered because I couldn't get my 12 month old to be quiet while the doctor talked. He gave me a lecture on developmentally appropriate behavior and said if he didn't want to talk over babies making noises he wouldn't have become a pediatrician. 

7 hours ago, princessmahina said:

I'm terribly fidgety and I've observed that most other people don't remain static either. It seems unreasonable for any human, much less a tiny one. 

I know! I don't get why anyone would try to train a baby/toddler by restraining them in their lap while adding more and more time to the period of forced restraint. That sounds terrible and not developmentally appropriate at all! 

[ophelia]

The church I attend offers services for children at the same time as the "normal" services. But there are still a lot of children that attend with their parents and it is never really a problem. At the end of the pews there is a small table and some chairs and juice, cookies and books so that if a child get too bored during the service it can go there on its own or accompanied by a parent. Children are allowed to move and walk through the children so that they can explore the church. Sometimes, if they do it quietly, some kids play hide and seek or play tag. The pastor has no problem at all with it and whenever something "special" (baptisms, etc.) happens up front, every child is invited to come close and see what is happening. It is really a great church!!!

[Coconut Flan]

6 hours ago, formergothardite said:

I babysat my 14 month old nephew a couple of weeks ago and can't fathom trying to train him to sit still and quiet through an hour sermon.

My question is why any church has an hour sermon.  Church service is not just about being preached at.  Most of the churches I attend hold the sermon to 10 minutes or less and almost no one gets restless. 

[formergothardite]

5 minutes ago, Coconut Flan said:

Most of the churches I attend hold the sermon to 10 minutes or less and almost no one gets restless

You are so lucky! We would have 20-30 minutes of singing/announcements and then 45-60 minutes of preaching and then an altar call that can last forever! The worst was when you could tell the pastor was just about the end the altar call and then someone walks forward so it was another round or two of Just As I Am. 

Towards the end of my time with churches I did go to a more liberal one where the pastor said that after 20 minutes almost everyone has tuned you out so pastors should say what they have to say as quickly as the can say it.

 

[Coconut Flan]

I usually find that the "preaching churches" are more about man and man made laws and the others remember it's about God and love. 

[December]

3 minutes ago, Coconut Flan said:

I usually find that the "preaching churches" are more about man and man made laws and the others remember it's about God and love. 

 

Any church service I've attended where the sermon exceeds ~20 min. they seem to completely lose their focus, and by the end I've just been left wondering "how exactly did we get from the Bible to here?" It almost felt like they were trying to make it difficult for anyone to present a counter-argument because their argument meandered so much. I wasn't sure whether it was a denominational difference (all of these were very different churches from the mainline Protestant stuff I grew up with) or just a subpar church/preacher each time.

[Gobsmacked]

Preachers like pp, John boy and Jody Hodnett have to drone on and on etc to prove to their donating churches that they are 'getting their money's' worth?

I attended a Methodist church service as a teenager only once. Our Church youth group were invited as guests. The sermon ran on and on, the church was overheated and as we got bored and began to count ceiling rafters ( it really was that boring) we noticed that some of the older congregation had fallen asleep! If that was a regular occurrence then it's time to drastically shorten the sermon!

Our last regular church before #1 was ill, had 10 minute sermons and a junior Sunday school. Perfect combination.