Church training your infant

[teachergirl]

So I know many of you like Benjamin Serven and his wife but according to her instagram, her sweet little EIGHT month baby is getting too "noisy and wriggly" during church so they are practicing during the week to "learn" to be quiet.  We wouldn't want our blessings from the Lord to exhibit developmentally appropriate behavior would we??? It is more important that they "learn" as fast as they can they their spirits will be crushed.  This is the dangerous thing about fundies...we always give them slack ( myself included) and then they refuse to accept their infants have ages and stages. I weep for these children.

[Cleopatra7]

I know there's variance across fundie groups, depending on theology, but it does like many of the same people who insist that children are a blessing in all circumstances will also claim that even tiny infants are horrible sinners who cry because of their selfish natures (as opposed to the fact that babies can't talk and crying is their only form of communication). These two ideas seem to be mutually exclusive. 

[nastyhobbitses]

10 minutes ago, Cleopatra7 said:

I know there's variance across fundie groups, depending on theology, but it does like many of the same people who insist that children are a blessing in all circumstances will also claim that even tiny infants are horrible sinners who cry because of their selfish natures (as opposed to the fact that babies can't talk and crying is their only form of communication). These two ideas seem to be mutually exclusive. 

I feel you on the cognitive dissonance, but I think this is the line of logic: children are a blessing because they are proof of God's favor, an extension of yourself, and a "soldier of God" to mold and develop. And since they are extensions of you, they must uphold your reputation in the community and act how you want them to act. As soldiers/arrows for God, they must be "trained" and be obedient to you (that also fits into the "umbrella of authority" model - you obey God, you are given God's authority, so your child/wife must obey you as an extension or proxy of God). Then you have the "anyone who doesn't think and act like me is evil" line of thinking that fuels people like John Schrader and Derick Dillard -- a baby doesn't know about God/Jesus/Bill Gothard yet, and is therefore evil and must be "trained" or taught to know God before they can be "good".

Also, I feel like fundamentalism attracts a lot of very narcissistic people who simply can't fathom that other people, babies included, have needs and feelings.

[Cleopatra7]

1 hour ago, nastyhobbitses said:

I feel you on the cognitive dissonance, but I think this is the line of logic: children are a blessing because they are proof of God's favor, an extension of yourself, and a "soldier of God" to mold and develop. And since they are extensions of you, they must uphold your reputation in the community and act how you want them to act. As soldiers/arrows for God, they must be "trained" and be obedient to you (that also fits into the "umbrella of authority" model - you obey God, you are given God's authority, so your child/wife must obey you as an extension or proxy of God). Then you have the "anyone who doesn't think and act like me is evil" line of thinking that fuels people like John Schrader and Derick Dillard -- a baby doesn't know about God/Jesus/Bill Gothard yet, and is therefore evil and must be "trained" or taught to know God before they can be "good".

Also, I feel like fundamentalism attracts a lot of very narcissistic people who simply can't fathom that other people, babies included, have needs and feelings.

But these fundies and conservatives in general are also some of the first to complain about "welfare fraud" and constantly worry about the "wrong people" (e.g, single women, minority women, undocumented workers, Muslims) having babies. If children are always a blessing and white conservative Christians particularly blessed because 'Murica is a "Christian nation," why is god blessing "the wrong people"? 

[nastyhobbitses]

25 minutes ago, Cleopatra7 said:

But these fundies and conservatives in general are also some of the first to complain about "welfare fraud" and constantly worry about the "wrong people" (e.g, single women, minority women, undocumented workers, Muslims) having babies. If children are always a blessing and white conservative Christians particularly blessed because 'Murica is a "Christian nation," why is god blessing "the wrong people"? 

I can't answer that except I will say that fundies are the Simone Biles of mental gymnastics.

[VooDooChild]

25 minutes ago, Cleopatra7 said:

But these fundies and conservatives in general are also some of the first to complain about "welfare fraud" and constantly worry about the "wrong people" (e.g, single women, minority women, undocumented workers, Muslims) having babies. If children are always a blessing and white conservative Christians particularly blessed because 'Murica is a "Christian nation," why is god blessing "the wrong people"? 

Like?.....why are you are you trying to interject logic into this?  

[Cleopatra7]

1 minute ago, VooDooChild said:

Like?.....why are you are you trying to interject logic into this?  

I know, right? It's a character flaw, always trying to find logic where logic clearly doesn't exist.

[VooDooChild]

6 minutes ago, Cleopatra7 said:

I know, right? It's a character flaw, always trying to find logic where logic clearly doesn't exist.

You'll only hurt your brain.  The mental gymnastics required to understand fundies is just too stressful.  Save yourself the pain.  Just smile and wave.

[Clementine]

Blanket training and hitting the kid with a spoon when he doesn't "obey"?

[Lurky]

I can't believe I'm promoting Jessa Seewald, but compare this to how Jessa talked about Spurgeon trying to sing through Church services

[princessmahina]

The babies at my church are half feral, screeching and climbing over things all the time. Their parents just pick them up and carry them around until they calm down a bit and/or bring a soft toy or two to keep them occupied. I figured that was all the church "training" that was needed. Eek.

[Peas n carrots]

Well I honk the only appropriate babies to be had to the white Christian fundies are white babies. I could be wrong but how many crisis pregnancy centers reside in inner cities or other poor areas populated by minorities? I tend to see them more in predominantly white areas.

[hoipolloi]

5 hours ago, teachergirl said:

So I know many of you like Benjamin Serven and his wife but according to her instagram, her sweet little EIGHT month baby is getting too "noisy and wriggly" during church so they are practicing during the week to "learn" to be quiet.

Saw this too, and UGH, just UGH. 

WTF is wrong with these people? If you don't understand basic human development, then don't have babies. Asshats.

And yes, Benjamin and Micaela Serven, you're asshats if you are actually training that baby to be quiet in church at the age of 8 months.

[Childless]

This is what nurseries are for.  I had to attend a church service (against my will) that didn't have a nursery.  Yeah, my 2 year old lasted all of 3 minutes before we had to leave.  It was ridiculous for people to think he'd sit through an hour long service which consisted mostly of the pastor yammering (no music at all).  Guess I should thank my little one though for getting me out of attending the service. 

[Black Aliss]

One of my earliest memories (certainly no more than a toddler, possibly younger, because I couldn't voice my complaint) is that of being held immobile on my father's lap while I struggled, during a church service. The source of my discomfort was my father's [cheap] wool suit trousers against my bare legs, irritating enough that my legs would be covered with a rash by the time the service ended. I still can't tolerate the feel of most wool fabrics against my skin, so I can well imagine how miserable I must have been feeling.

[Mercer]

I don't get why they're acting like taking a baby to church is rocket science and requires extensive preparation. Either put them in the nursery or take them out of the sanctuary when they start to fuss. It's really not hard.

[teachergirl]

But they don't believe in nurseries as many of them attend FIC churches although it seems that the Servens attend a Baptist church with Nathan and his wife Emily. What gets me is she does really think her baby has the mental capacity to remember the "training" from day to day and then on Sundays?? UGH.

[Childless]

Someone needs to sign these people up for a class in early childhood development.

[teachergirl]

They wouldn't listen as those classes are taught by evil public school teachers and possibly heathen university professors who don't understand the "sin nature" of babies and how they manipulate. insert sarcasm.

[polecat]

22 hours ago, princessmahina said:

The babies at my church are half feral, screeching and climbing over things all the time. Their parents just pick them up and carry them around until they calm down a bit and/or bring a soft toy or two to keep them occupied. I figured that was all the church "training" that was needed. Eek.

 

bbm -- hahahaha!!!!!

 

I think all babies and small children are half feral.

Heck, my preteens and young teen are half feral a good chunk of the time. 

[BobTheWalrus]

On 05/11/2016 at 1:33 PM, nastyhobbitses said:

Also, I feel like fundamentalism attracts a lot of very narcissistic people who simply can't fathom that other people, babies included, have needs and feelings.

Exactly this.  My interaction with the fundy world is thankfully limited, but this is exactly the case in my opinion.  There's also a lot of fear-based, reactionary parenting. For example, reading an article about woefully underfunded schools in Detroit, and responding with panic that all schools are like that and therefore deciding to homeschool, even though your actual school where you live may be perfectly adequate. Or hearing about how one kid went to church youth group and MET A BOY AND THEY KISSED, and thus banning your kids from youth group and switching to FIC, without considering the other factors that might be at play in developing a healthy faith in your children. They're told to "train up a child" according to these rules and everything will go fine, see, it's in the Bible! But there's no consideration of individuality or wants or needs.

[danvillebelle]

One of the many reasons we knew the Orthodox church was for us...

The first time we visited what became our parish, in the fall of 1997, we had two little boys aged 3 and not quite 2.  It was Wednesday Vespers.  When the priest saw us, he came over before the service started and said "don't worry about your boys talking or making any noise...it's not a problem.  We expect children to be children."  

I realize that not all Orthodox parishes are that welcoming (I have been to ones that weren't).  But that one was, and it was quite the first impression.  In that parish and the two others we have attended for any length of time, babies and toddlers making BABY AND TODDLER NOISES are not a problem.  You walk them around to look at the icons, you pass them to a friend so they have a new face to look at, you plop them on the floor with a soft book or toy you brought.  It's all good.  (It helps that there is so much to look at, listen to and smell during an Orthodox Liturgy...there is always something going on for them to watch).

[Hane]

On 11/5/2016 at 11:12 PM, Mercer said:

I don't get why they're acting like taking a baby to church is rocket science and requires extensive preparation. Either put them in the nursery or take them out of the sanctuary when they start to fuss. It's really not hard.

But, in this circle, having babies/small children who sit quietly through an interminable, stultifying church service is a "look at what a perfect parent I am!" status symbol. Using the nursery would be a sign of defeat in the face of the child's "sin nature."

[FundieFarmer]

They may be saying that because the mom dreads missing sermons. I know a lot of fundie churches make it so that whenever baby has to be out of church, so does mom. That's not an excuse for this bullshit "solution"...just my thought on why they might be trying to come up with a solution in the first place. 

I love that my church has cry rooms on both sides of the sanctuary with one-way mirrors facing the pulpit. One is just for women who are breast feeding, and one is for men and women so dads can take kids too. It's very family friendly and makes sure parents don't have to miss the sermon just because kids are squalling...as kids do! 

[December]

4 hours ago, FundieFarmer said:

They may be saying that because the mom dreads missing sermons. I know a lot of fundie churches make it so that whenever baby has to be out of church, so does mom. That's not an excuse for this bullshit "solution"...just my thought on why they might be trying to come up with a solution in the first place. 

I love that my church has cry rooms on both sides of the sanctuary with one-way mirrors facing the pulpit. One is just for women who are breast feeding, and one is for men and women so dads can take kids too. It's very family friendly and makes sure parents don't have to miss the sermon just because kids are squalling...as kids do! 

 

It's absolutely appalling for all the rhetoric about babies being everything that they don't support mothers in church of all places. But hypocrisy. 

Like you, I've seen plenty of support for families with small children, nursing mothers, etc. at churches. Especially fundie-lite ones. Babysitting, nursing rooms, designated pews with toys and books, cry rooms. I'm guessing something like a separate room where women might have to take care of their children by nursing, changing diapers, etc. is too defrauding by their standards to implement, or something?