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Priss & Pecan, Pt 4: Dump Truck Baby


samurai_sarah

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@Snarkle, thank you for saying what you did about parents of special needs kids flying.  My daughter and son-in-law flew home from China this July with their new daughter who is profoundly deaf.  The child did not know many signs at that time and she does babble and cry, too.  I hope that she was "good" on the flight and I hope that her fellow passengers were understanding.  

My grandson is into Thomas and so is his little sister now.  I know a bit of what it's like to always have to make sure he has his trains!

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6 hours ago, slickcat79 said:

Agreed with all of this, except that I don't love kids. I hate being around them, especially babies/toddlers. Seeing little kids on a plane brings an immediate feeling of dread. I once paid for a last-minute upgrade to business class so I could avoid it. I will not be volunteering to do anything to help with a stranger's kids unless they are in danger of hurting themselves. But I wouldn't say that's necessarily reflective of American society as a whole. In my experience, people are by turns horrified, dismissive, and patronizing when you tell them that you don't like kids and are never having any. 

That said, I don't care for the trend of goody bags for plane passengers either. There may be a million reasons someone would need to bring a baby on a plane, and they're allowed to do so. Most rational people can understand that you're not going to get away from being around little kids in public life. And realistically, a baggie of candy and earplugs is not actually going to help anything. I'm not going to wear earplugs for 3 hours because of your screaming child. I'd rather the parent save their money and put it towards some benadryl and a new pacifier. Realistically though, people traveling with littles have enough to worry about besides handing out treat bags.  

Yeah, a note and bits of foam rubber don't really change the situation at hand. Babies cry. They especially cry when they are displeased. Planes are not pleasurable for anyone. I get that they're going to cry. You don't need to apologize for an occurrence as certain as bears shitting in the woods and fish swimming.

But by the same token, I'm not going to be in a real kumbaya "children are our future" mood if I have to spend 6 hours in a musty metal tube with a shrieking infant. I love kids and I love to play with babies and toddlers, but I also love sleeping and being left alone.

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4 hours ago, bal maiden said:

Funny how it's okay for someone to say that they have the privilege not to be around kids, and that's okay, but for someone to say that they should have the privilege of not dealing with a person of another colour or religion or life choice would be shocking and unacceptable. Children are still people. 

Funny how it's okay for someone to implore others to hold or feed or entertain strangers' children, and that's okay, but for someone to implore others to hold or feed or entertain a person of another color/religion/life choice would be shocking and unacceptable.

See, I can replace words with other words and make arguments nonsensical too.

No one is saying that people shouldn't be expected to see or be around children, only that they don't have to take care of children if they don't want to. Children are people...people who are not my responsibility. And hopefully people like me can find enough maturity not to pitch a fit about something as ubiquitous as babies on planes.

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28 minutes ago, slickcat79 said:

Funny how it's okay for someone to implore others to hold or feed or entertain strangers' children, and that's okay, but for someone to implore others to hold or feed or entertain a person of another color/religion/life choice would be shocking and unacceptable.

See, I can replace words with other words and make arguments nonsensical too.

No one is saying that people shouldn't be expected to see or be around children, only that they don't have to take care of children if they don't want to. Children are people...people who are not my responsibility. And hopefully people like me can find enough maturity not to pitch a fit about something as ubiquitous as babies on planes.

Exactly.  To put it another way, I don't have any obligation to entertain random strangers, whether they be adults OR children.  There are LOTS of types of people I don't tolerate or find insufferable.  Like I said, I like kids, but I don't like misogynists, entitled people, white supremacists, etc.  It's ok to dislike certain types of people.  Not everything is a protected class.  

And I can't avoid being around random strangers, whether they be adult or kids, in certain situations and I don't expect to.  But I don't have to find it pleasant.  I don't have to enjoy it.  I don't have to seek it out.  I can do my best to avoid it if I want.  

And to be honest, I don't generally find kids annoying on planes if they are just being loud.  If you get on a plane in this age without headphones, earplugs, or some way to block out unwanted stimuli, you're really taking a risk and you know it.  You can't expect a tube full of over 100 humans to be peaceful.  But you have a right to be annoyed if you're getting kicked, punched, puked on, cheerios thrown at you, etc.  

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I think the problem is  not that you can hate/not love/find insufferable /... a group of people. The question is more why is it ok to say it out loud when it is about children but not when it is about colour, sexuality, age or disability? They did not choose to be what they are and they can't change out of their power (makes them different than an ignorant racists in my opinion) nor do they need to change. 

It is fine to hate kids but is it fine to proudly state it? I'm not sure. It was fine to state to hate POC for a long time and we are gladly overcoming that. 

What I am sure about is that is totally fine to tell a kid/its parents that it should stop kicking your seat (or alike) immediately.

I hope nobody feels had slapped because that is not my intention. I am not sure if those cases can be compared. I think yes but everybody is entitled to think otherwise. 

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I don't think Philip likes being smothered in kisses (or he's pooping, who knows?) Poor baby, the pictures we've seen of him so far hasn't been the best. Davia looks adorable in this picture though! 

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On 12/2/2016 at 11:33 PM, Georgiana said:

Exactly.  To put it another way, I don't have any obligation to entertain random strangers, whether they be adults OR children.  There are LOTS of types of people I don't tolerate or find insufferable.  Like I said, I like kids, but I don't like misogynists, entitled people, white supremacists, etc.  It's ok to dislike certain types of people.  Not everything is a protected class.  

And I can't avoid being around random strangers, whether they be adult or kids, in certain situations and I don't expect to.  But I don't have to find it pleasant.  I don't have to enjoy it.  I don't have to seek it out.  I can do my best to avoid it if I want.  

And to be honest, I don't generally find kids annoying on planes if they are just being loud.  If you get on a plane in this age without headphones, earplugs, or some way to block out unwanted stimuli, you're really taking a risk and you know it.  You can't expect a tube full of over 100 humans to be peaceful.  But you have a right to be annoyed if you're getting kicked, punched, puked on, cheerios thrown at you, etc.  

To the last point -- I'm not going to get my panties in a twist about a crying baby (the kid's ears hurt and they're in a weird place, and right now their communication is limited to screaming incoherently until the thing they don't like goes away), a disabled kid (they similarly can't help it), or kids making normal kid noises at a reasonable volume. I will, however, get annoyed by undisciplined children who do not respect the fact that there are other people on the plane, and by parents who let their little darlings be disrespectful, expect strangers and busy flight attendants to be free childcare, or let their baby squall unconsoled for extended periods of time.

Also, kids not systemically oppressed by an expectation that they behave according to social norms to the best of their developmental ability, nor are parents oppressed by the expectation that they take responsibility for their children.

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Reminds me of a time a few years ago when I was on an Amtrak for a 12 hour trip.  I had one of my kids with me and we went up to the observation car for awhile because the passenger car was getting suffocating.  There was a boy about four years old running around bothering all the passengers.  His mother sat nearby staring vacantly out the window with a serene smile of her face.  I had a young teen, and that was the closest person in age to the boy so he latched on to us.

The boy wasn't horrible, he was just bored and when he tried to talk to his mother she made some inarticulate noises at him without ever really saying anything to him or even looking at him.  Everyone else was stuck dealing with this kid that just wanted attention and something to do.  I eventually went down to the cafe car and asked the lady at the counter if she had anything to occupy a small child that was bored out of his mind.  She laughed and said she knew who I was talking about.  

Seems the boy and his mother were on a four or five day trip and the mother checked out after only a few hours on board.  They had a sleeper car, but the mom apparently hadn't brought anything for the boy to play with, so after breakfast she'd park herself in the observation car for a few hours and let everyone else deal with the child.  Sometimes she'd walk the kid through the cars looking for families with small children and turn him loose on them.  After a couple of hours they'd come back to the observation car.  People were coming down to buy the kid snacks and stuff to keep him occupied for a while, but since the mom was feeding him three meals a day and keeping him in their sleeper at night there was nothing the train staff could do.  He wasn't doing anything wrong, just trying to occupy himself on a long boring trip.  The train had a car where they'd show movies, but nothing that a small child would enjoy.  I considered renting a portable dvd player, but that was $20, not counting the cost of renting a movie to go with it.  I considered it, but couldn't afford to spend that much on someone else's kid.  The woman I was talking to seemed amused by the whole thing.  She said that she was selling a lot of candy and junk food to people who were buying stuff to occupy the kid, and he was just getting more and more wound up as time went on.

I paid an astronomical amount of money for a five page coloring book and a pack of four or five crayons.  The kid spent maybe 20 minutes happily scribbling and then started running around again looking for something to do.  At least we got to get off in a few hours, that poor kid had another day on the train before he was released.

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11 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

I think the problem is  not that you can hate/not love/find insufferable /... a group of people. The question is more why is it ok to say it out loud when it is about children but not when it is about colour, sexuality, age or disability? They did not choose to be what they are and they can't change out of their power (makes them different than an ignorant racists in my opinion) nor do they need to change. 

 

 

Uh, I would be careful comparing children (or any other age group) which is definitely transitive, to actual color/sexuality/disability, which in most (but not all) cases is not.  Also, children are often a product of their raising - which is what I think most of us are trying to get at here - a behavior, if you will, not something inherent within one.  Additionally, children (hopefully) grow up and/or out of behavior.  I have a teen myself, and it irks me no end when someone does not tend to their child.  I'm not referring to parents who have challenges either by their own situation or their child's special needs or whatever, I'm talking disrespect for others or assuming everyone loves children, which many of us don't.  These fundies who are obsessed with producing children are perfect examples of how even benign neglect affects us all.  These former fundie kids, who may not have chosen to be what they are but still perpetuate the horrible beliefs their parents do, are out there making policy and raising arrows for Jesus.  Additionally, many of the younger kids behave abominably, especially in public.  Despite blanket training, there are volumes of photographic evidence of Duggar, Bates, etc. children completely disrespecting others' cultures, beliefs, backgrounds, etc.  That is not inherent - that is taught or learned behavior, just like kids who run around restaurants knocking things over or through stores destroying displays and who aren't told to stop.  So yeah, I think it's OK to admit one doesn't like children as a whole and to avoid them if possible.  People have been blaming teenagers for things forever!  That's a whole different ballgame than being a racist, and in today's charged society, words matter.

2 hours ago, Flossie said:

I paid an astronomical amount of money for a five page coloring book and a pack of four or five crayons.  The kid spent maybe 20 minutes happily scribbling and then started running around again looking for something to do.  At least we got to get off in a few hours, that poor kid had another day on the train before he was released.

Bless you for doing your best to help this kid.  This is the kind of "parenting" I am referring to - benign neglect - which makes others loathe all kids, even when it's not their fault directly.   Unfortunately this happens a lot to kids - probably as much as the helicopter parents that make the news more often.  When I was young we were expected to entertain ourselves or just go out and play most of the time, but in appropriate situations we were kept busy for both ours' and our parents' sake.  One parent's lack of attention made what was supposed to be an enjoyable trip for all of the other passengers (and the kid himself) into a difficult situation.  I feel for the kid AND the staff as well as the passengers (including you!) in this case.

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As a childfree person myself who will sometimes often carelessly shout, "I hate kids! I can't stand them!" I've often found a lot of the time that it's really the parents I don't like, not the kids directly. 

I've only ever had a flight with one baby on it. It was a 5-hour flight and she was about 1 or 1-and-a-half? She barely made a peep the entire flight. She whined a little at takeoff and then whined a little again during the flight. Other than that, she was mostly silent but occasionally she laughed. Her parents had a tablet, pacifiers, books, snacks, drinks, toys, etc. They were constantly talking to her and playing with her. I had dreaded the flight when I saw them in the waiting area but I was pleasantly surprised at how prepared the parents were and what a great job they did.

Then there are times like when I was on a train for two hours with a baby who would not stop crying. The parents had a diaper bag but I saw no evidence of pacifiers, toys, drinks, snacks, or anything. They just kind of held the baby, would say "shhh" once in a while, and just keep talking and laughing amongst themselves as if nothing were happening. I hate kids crying but like in this instance, I realize I don't hate the kid itself. I hate the parents. They don't think it's a big deal, they're not doing anything to help the poor thing. 

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7 hours ago, wikinggirl said:

I don't think Philip likes being smothered in kisses (or he's pooping, who knows?) Poor baby, the pictures we've seen of him so far hasn't been the best. Davia looks adorable in this picture though! 

Poor Phillip looks like he's trying to figure out how he ended up in this family. 

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I think they've tried to prop the poor baby into a position he isn't ready for so he's scrunched and probably unhappy. 

Why did they put Davia in a fancy dress and the boys in plaid shirts and vests?  Wouldn't the photo look better if they were closer in formality? 

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As a mother who has traveled a fair bit alone with a baby, and then with a very active toddler, I have few thoughts:

 

1. When my  baby is crying or my toddler is unhappy in a public place, no one is as bothered by it as me. Not only do I hate the noise, too, but I am also anxious about my baby being unhappy, and embarrassed to be disturbing others. Ignoring us or sympathetic looks and smiles are appreciated. Glares or sharp words are totally unnessecary. I get it - you don't like my baby crying. I'm doing my best, and all babies cry. Even if you never have kids, you were that crying baby once. Fuck off.

2. Preparedness is key. That said, travelling with kids is a crap shoot. I could take the same trip with the same kid 3 times with the same stuff and have three totally different experiences.  Also, moms are people, too. I once very carefully packed a backpack full of snacks and toys for a long car ride, and left it on the table in a last minute outfit change rush (the baby's, not mine).

3. I dont care if you like kids or not. Basic manners still apply. You wouldn't glare at someone for struggling with a big suitcase or cut someone off whose wheelchair got stuck. Why be a dick when someonw is moving slower because strollers are hard to manage, or because my new walker is a slow walker? I am not trying to inconvenience you - I'm just trying to get to my own flight. 

I have found that some (not all) people who don't have kids just don't know what is age appropriate. My toddler is not an adult. It isn't fair to expect him to act like one. We are doing our best. Show a little compassion. Or just put your headphones on and take a nap or something. You will be away from us soon.

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I've been on plenty of flights with babies. They were no problem. Toddlers kicking the back of my seat, I simply look over the seat back and talk to them. Tell them it bothers me and I need them to stop. Generally works fine. Sometimes we play a little peek through the cushion openings. 

You know what I hate most on a flight? Flame away..obese jerks who have figured out how to crowd into their seat and at least half of mine. After one particularly fucking huge dickwad sat down next to me and casually lifted the armrest between us saying "you don't mind do you"? I  spent the next 4 hours scrunched into half a seat, the middle seat. My husband is not overweight, but he is 6'2" and about 200lbs. He was in the window seat taking up 100% of his seat so I had nowhere to go. I couldn't get the armrest back down once it was up cause no way was she  budging. Part way through the trip she's calling up a few rows to an obese man. Found out it was her boyfriend  so we suggested she switch seats with the (skinny) person sitting next to boyfriend. She said "no, we do this on purpose"! I could barely walk when we got off that flight.  

Now whenever we travel I dread seeing obese people on our flight. I warn my friends about letting anyone put the armrest up for "a minute" if the person is fat. My mother in law is obese and no way in hell will she ever sit next to me or in my row on any flight. In fact she is flying to Fl soon and I apologize for her if anyone is unlucky enough to sit next to her. 

So there. Probably highly offensive and way off track, but give me 50 crying babies on my flight to Costa Rica, but no obese people in my row.

Tl:dr  I dont mind children on a plane. Do mind obese people taking half my seat on said plane.

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I would rather sit on a plane next to three screaming babies sitting on top of each other in an overcoat masquerading as an adult than sit next to one adult stranger who would attempt to have small talk with me.

Crying babies on planes bother me a lot less than overhearing loud, boring conversations. And I also would never assume that the parents of a crying child are "doing nothing." A lot of babies experience a "witching hour" everyday in which they will just cry, cry, cry, no matter what. Mine did.

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40 minutes ago, dpndetfarm said:

I've been on plenty of flights with babies. They were no problem. Toddlers kicking the back of my seat, I simply look over the seat back and talk to them. Tell them it bothers me and I need them to stop. Generally works fine. Sometimes we play a little peek through the cushion openings. 

You know what I hate most on a flight? Flame away..obese jerks who have figured out how to crowd into their seat and at least half of mine. After one particularly fucking huge dickwad sat down next to me and casually lifted the armrest between us saying "you don't mind do you"? I  spent the next 4 hours scrunched into half a seat, the middle seat. My husband is not overweight, but he is 6'2" and about 200lbs. He was in the window seat taking up 100% of his seat so I had nowhere to go. I couldn't get the armrest back down once it was up cause no way was she  budging. Part way through the trip she's calling up a few rows to an obese man. Found out it was her boyfriend  so we suggested she switch seats with the (skinny) person sitting next to boyfriend. She said "no, we do this on purpose"! I could barely walk when we got off that flight.  

Now whenever we travel I dread seeing obese people on our flight. I warn my friends about letting anyone put the armrest up for "a minute" if the person is fat. My mother in law is obese and no way in hell will she ever sit next to me or in my row on any flight. In fact she is flying to Fl soon and I apologize for her if anyone is unlucky enough to sit next to her. 

So there. Probably highly offensive and way off track, but give me 50 crying babies on my flight to Costa Rica, but no obese people in my row.

Tl:dr  I dont mind children on a plane. Do mind obese people taking half my seat on said plane.

Armrests are KEY.  For almost every airline, the policy is that a passenger has the right to have the armrest down.  If someone asks you to move it up, just politely but firmly say "Actually, I prefer it down".  If someone says "You don't mind?", I say "Sorry, but I do."  You will not be forced to put it up, and if the other passenger cannot fit in the seat, the airline will deal with them.

Also, I always have a few extra magazines.  I put these in between my body and the armrest.  It's a natural and convenient storage spot, doesn't infringe on the space of anyone else, but does create an additional barrier between myself and the other person.  

I do this all the time, no matter who is sitting next to me.  If you do it first thing when you sit down, it looks like a routine (which it is for me) and not a personal attack.  It's a subtle yet firm way of defining your space and cluing your seatmates in to the fact that you are not down to be touched. 

Source: Avid traveler who cannot stand prolonged, forced physical contact due to anxiety.   

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I like the magazine approach.  When I was flying a lot it was back in my skinny days and people were forever trying to sit beside me to gain some space.  I always kept my arm firmly on the armrest and denied all requests to move it.  One woman complained to the flight attendant who told her they'd be glad to move her to a spot where she could buy an extra seat, but that arm rest was staying down and that i was entitled to the entire seat I'd paid to have.  The woman beside me muttered under her breath but she isn't using it all.  I just smiled. 

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I've never heard of special passenger goody bags before this, much less been offered one.

And Davia Waller can sit by me on a plane whenever she wants. She's my spirit animal.

[the rest of her family will need to sit a few rows away, though!]

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3 hours ago, Screamapillar said:

I would rather sit on a plane next to three screaming babies sitting on top of each other in an overcoat masquerading as an adult than sit next to one adult stranger who would attempt to have small talk with me.

Crying babies on planes bother me a lot less than overhearing loud, boring conversations. And I also would never assume that the parents of a crying child are "doing nothing." A lot of babies experience a "witching hour" everyday in which they will just cry, cry, cry, no matter what. Mine did.

Ugh small talk and people crowding your seat. Nope, not for me. I am all for saying hello and being friendly with people but seriously, I have my earphones in. Don't mime taking them out and certainly don't pull them out. I had a guy do that and I was livid. Rude people all around, that's the issue. 

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I would rather sit on a plane next to three screaming babies sitting on top of each other in an overcoat masquerading as an adult than sit next to one adult stranger who would attempt to have small talk with me.
Crying babies on planes bother me a lot less than overhearing loud, boring conversations. And I also would never assume that the parents of a crying child are "doing nothing." A lot of babies experience a "witching hour" everyday in which they will just cry, cry, cry, no matter what. Mine did.

Funnyish personal story, I met my boyfriend on a plane from Italy to England. He isn't a small talk kind of person but we did and now we have been together for 2 1/2 years. One time small talk worked out!
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3 hours ago, HereticHick said:

I've never heard of special passenger goody bags before this, much less been offered one.

And Davia Waller can sit by me on a plane whenever she wants. She's my spirit animal.

[the rest of her family will need to sit a few rows away, though!]

Priss and Pecan (and Kelly Jo and Gil, for that matter) would need to sit more than a few rows away. Maybe in the cargo hold...

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Oh a few years ago I flew from Seattle to Chicago with my then 6 yr old son. Neither of us had flown commercial before, I got our seats over the wing and then the day came and they separated our seats by one. I was in the aisle and my son in the window and a 18 yr old girl in the middle I offered her the choice of wither aisle or window but she turn it down. My son has dwarfism and is severe adhd. I found out that the sound of the engine knocks me out at cruising level no matter how much caffine I absorb. That poor girl. She said my son was a delight. And since my credit card was on file with the flight snack cart she ordered my son and her self some snacks... lmao the way back was ok since it was a 4am flight we both slept. 

 

I don't know how they will manage but I'm sure the kids will be excited and the baby will probably sleep. The kids might catch the in flight movie even if they can't hear it and just watch. 

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I am a Midwesterner and we generally tend to talk to people around us - in lines, on planes, anywhere.  As a resident of New England for a while now, though, I learned that many of my neighbors see making small talk as being "all up in their business," as one so eloquently said.

That said, I would be horrified to be trapped next to the Wallers (or any of their ilk) on their flight to/from Australia who have an internal/invisible counter of Souls Saved for Jesus (sort of like the kind of clicker/counter you hold in your hand).  I'd imagine them trying to strike up a conversation to convert me during that looooooong flight with David's sh*t-eating grin encouraging Priscilla to show off their perfect family and bring me Into the Light with them.  A lot of the Wallers' blog is all about how they handed out tracts at events or saved a soul here or there, so I wouldn't put it past them.  I might find sitting near David's brother Adam and his wife Valerie interesting, though, as they seem like the quiet, oldest-kid types who would be interesting to eavesdrop on.  (I always wonder what Adam really thinks of his little brother, especially David's co-opting of Adam's twin Isaac's story when it fits David's proselytizing purposes.)

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Of course, we would be trapped with them, but they'd also be trapped with us. I'd probably take the opportunity to have a long conversation with my traveling partner about our plans for the bi-annual baby sacrifice our coven puts on or how I helped our  local government give everyone the mark of the beast.

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On 12/2/2016 at 8:09 PM, PennySycamore said:

@Snarkle, thank you for saying what you did about parents of special needs kids flying.  My daughter and son-in-law flew home from China this July with their new daughter who is profoundly deaf.  The child did not know many signs at that time and she does babble and cry, too.  I hope that she was "good" on the flight and I hope that her fellow passengers were understanding.  

My grandson is into Thomas and so is his little sister now.  I know a bit of what it's like to always have to make sure he has his trains!

You're welcome.  I've had friends with kids for whom traveling is difficult even when conditions are perfect, but still try to give their kids as much of a "normal" vacation experience as possible.  I also have a friend who adopted two girls from China who didn't have any disabilities, but still were worried about the long flights with a baby/toddler who was still more or less a stranger to them - it must have been even more of a challenge for your grandchild and her parents!

As I mentioned before, my problem is more with neglectful parents than babies/toddlers just being themselves.  Methinks your new granddaughter got quite a bit of attention on her long journey!

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