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Jon Clark seeks law to increase parental rights over adult children


FundieWatcher

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There's nothing in this man's proposal that can be used to help victims of human trafficking. He doesn't petition for harsher sentences for sexual predators or more help for their victims, he just wants a reason to keep his daughter indefinitely under his thumb. The way he "parented" her is ridiculous and borderline abusive and now he is taking advantage of her situation to have even more control over her. He must be pretty bummed that he lives in the 21st century and he can't make every decision about his daughter's life.

Edited by FreeMiriam
typo
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We are discussing this at work. Someone brought up that is similar to the Mann Act of 1910. Apparently it was intended to stop the white slave trade. But it was used to punish pre-marital sex and sex between black/white people.  Because if you have sex with someone before marriage that is kind of making them a slave or something.... SMH Just new witch hunts. 

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1 hour ago, FreeMiriam said:

There's nothing in this man's proposal that can be used to help victims of human trafficking. He doesn't petition for harsher sentences for sexual predators or more help for their victims

In the UK, there are real issues with what happens if people have been illegally trafficked here as basically sex slaves (or other kind of slavery, but the sexual slavery comes up most), and what happens if they escape and alert the authorities - if they're then deported, it can be an extra chain to lock people into hell.

Ugh, sorry for over-posting tonight.  I've worked a bit doing things that support people who work on Child Sexual Exploitation agendas, which is basically kids/young adults inveigled into horrible situations, and it's a really hard field, and anyone who works in it has my utmost admiration.  The horror stories get into the papers here, but there are some amazing people doing fantastic work, and if anyone's worried about these issues in the UK, I highly recommend what Barnardo's do.  I've never worked for them, but I know they're really highly rated

http://www.barnardos.org.uk/what_we_do/our_work/sexual_exploitation.htm

ETA, and if you want to help stop Child Sexual Exploitation in the UK, which would include helping the equivalents of  Jon Clark's daughter in the UK, donate to Barnardo's here, or see how you can help them campaign:

http://www.barnardos.org.uk/what_we_do/our_work/sexual_exploitation/help-us-stop-cse

ETA: and also for trafficked children:
http://www.barnardos.org.uk/what_we_do/our_work/trafficked_children.htm

Edited by Lurky
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4 hours ago, FundieWatcher said:

Somewhere along the way some decided sex trafficking should become the new "satanic panic" or invented crisis. Organizations, politicians, and activists make claims and a huge conspiracy is alleged to exist without any proof whatsoever. With sex trafficking it is that there hordes of pimps online, specifically social media. They are sophisticated criminal masterminds. They can quickly brainwash your child into becoming a prostitute and abandoning their loving home.  Any and every child is at risk- especially your beautiful Caucasian daughters.

Politicians and organizations  use it to draw attention to themselves. Activists petition the government for millions in grant money so they can fight it. And rumors and misinformation spread like wildfire. 

While human trafficking in it's true form is overlooked- particularly forced labor in mines and brick kilns. The form sex trafficking truly takes in the US isn't anything like what celebrities and politicians go on about. 

Not to mention a lot of undocumented immigrants who are lured to more developed economies with the promise of good work, only to be forced into debt slavery and unsafe working conditions, with the threat of deportation if they dare to protest their treatment. A lot of nail salons are staffed by trafficking victims. Same with construction/landscaping and domestic/hospitality work. But who cares about them? They aren't pretty white girls with rich families.

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2 hours ago, Hane said:

This guy is obvs a douche, but something tangentially related that happened in my family:

When my middle sister was about 25, single, and living at home (some 30 years ago), she was suffering from bulimia and anorexia so badly her potassium level fell to near-lethal levels and she was hospitalized to normalize them. She was having hallucinations and was barely coherent much of the time. Still, her doctors didn't want to share info about her condition or care with my mother, with whom she lived and who would be caring for her once she was released from the hospital. 

This was a fairly short-term illness back in the '80s, and I'm wondering whether such matters are handled differently now.

 

 

They are. Anorexia is definitely an illness where doctors will petition the court to override a persons right to autonomy. They are not mentally able to make decisions about their own care when they get to the point you describe.

Any good treatment program is going to involve the parents or other support people. Ideally they get the permission of the patient but anorexics are so addicted to being thin they often refuse to cooperate. If they feel that this person will be a serious risk for death without parental involvement then they can get a court order for more permanent conservatorship like as was done in Britney Spears' case. But all good treatment programs for eating disorders heavily involve the family but limit information that is relevant to treatment/recovery and is done with permission of the patient. If a patient is unwilling to allow this permission it's because they have a legit reason and maybe there are other people  better involved in their recovery. Or they are still too sick to make rational healthy decisions and will likely agree to allowing parental involvement in time (mostly because they won't be able to leave If they aren't complying with treatment recommendations).

At the stage your sister was at it sounds like she would not have been able to make rational decisions and a doctor would have petitioned the court for a medical hold. Im new to the field and just starting a job where this example was discussed.

I think there is much more understanding of the dangers of anorexia now. At the point she was at she would have likely been referred for psych exam and transferred to an inpatient program that would also involve family (when medically stable).

i hope that she is doing better? 

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Maybe instead of maintaining control of your adult children you could, oh, I don't know,  teach them how to be adults. Let them grow up a little at a time starting when they are young so when they are supposedly mature enough for social media they aren't so gullible and vulnerable to these kinds of people. 

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4 hours ago, FundieWatcher said:

My non teacher opinion: I wish the high school would force out the over 17 chronic trouble makers. Once you hit 18 then there are or should be a higher set of standards. In other words with privilege comes responsibility. There academic life won't be over. When they are ready to take it seriously they can get their GED and then go to community college. To me an adult is an adult, I hate this ambiguous gray area. 

At least where I went to high school, they couldn't kick out the "super seniors" (a.k.a. 18+ students who had already failed a few grades, refused remedial help, etc.) unless they were actually caught in criminal activity. As I recall, they were still legally obligated to attend until they either graduated, got a GED, or turned 21. It was a bad situation for everyone involved -- the students didn't want to be there cause they didn't care and hadn't cared for ages, and the teachers were sick of dealing with 18-20 year olds who didn't want to be there and often distracted the other students. 

I never understand the weird staggering of the "age of majority" in this country (and state-to-state). Old enough to join the military, but not old enough to order a beer. Old enough to drive a car by yourself, but not old enough to consent to sex. I wish we'd just settle on 1 universal age where you're officially an adult -- it'd still be arbitrary, but at least it'd be consistent! 

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Also, on the subject of giving parents medical information: this is why advance directives are a good thing and should be easier to fill out and more available to people. They're not just for "yes it's OK to euthanize me". Before I moved overseas (the first time), I wrote a living will and granted my parents Power of Attorney, so that if anything happened to me, they could handle my finances, oversee my medical care, know what my wishes are if I am unable to express them, et cetera.

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I'm not sure he understands human trafficking? This is an adult woman who spoke the language, had resources, and made a decision to leave of her own free will. Yes, it sounds like she was groomed for prostitution but she wasn't held against her will - her dad didn't like the decisions she was making for herself and thought he could force her to do otherwise.

Granted no parent wants their kid to be turning tricks but you can't force them home or into treatment if they are an adult. Unless of course you can prove they are not mentally/physically competent to make their own decisions but being 18 isn't enough.

Ironically, the very think he claims to be trying to prevent - cults/individuals controlling choices of adult children - is what he is doing in his own way. 

6 minutes ago, nastyhobbitses said:

Also, on the subject of giving parents medical information: this is why advance directives are a good thing and should be easier to fill out and more available to people. They're not just for "yes it's OK to euthanize me". Before I moved overseas (the first time), I wrote a living will and granted my parents Power of Attorney, so that if anything happened to me, they could handle my finances, oversee my medical care, know what my wishes are if I am unable to express them, et cetera.

But...but...death panels! 

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Unfortunately, yes, sometimes young adults are victimized. Unfortunately sometimes young adults make bad decisions. Taking away their adulthood is not a reasonable solution to that, though.

Also, at risk of stating the obvious, it's far more common that the abuser of a young person is the parent than that it's a stranger lurking in the bushes or a pimp lurking on the internet. This would make it significantly harder for victims of the much more frequent scenario to seek help, in the name of preventing a far more narrow set of circumstances.

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I'm sorry of what happened to this woman, but this law sounds shady.

An adult is responsible for their own actions and the consequences of those actions.

I was talking to a friend who goes to a Christian college.  Her roommate last year skipped a lot of classes and would go out sometimes without her friends knowing where she was.  Her parents got involved, and eventually she left school.  It wasn't a safe situation, but my friend (the one who had this roommate) thought the school should make stricter curfews because she felt that would have stopped anything from happening.  But the fact is, this college ALREADY has pretty conservative rules (no alcohol, no dancing, underclassmen must live on campus, dorms curfew, etc).

My point was, bad things happen despite rules, sometimes more rules is not the answer.  

 

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8 hours ago, FundieWatcher said:

My non teacher opinion: I wish the high school would force out the over 17 chronic trouble makers. Once you hit 18 then there are or should be a higher set of standards. In other words with privilege comes responsibility. There academic life won't be over. When they are ready to take it seriously they can get their GED and then go to community college. To me an adult is an adult, I hate this ambiguous gray area. 

Our local school district was compelled to implement such a program.  They have a schedule of progress that has to be met by anyone who will turn 18 their junior or senior year of high school and a list of behavior that is not acceptable.  If progress isn't made or behavior problems come up, they are immediately shifted to adult education. 

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Thanks, @Snarkle Motion. In those days, very little was known about anorexia or bulimia. Because my sister wasn't skinny--she was 5'1" and weighed 140 pounds, her lowest adult weight by far; she'd lost over 150 pounds after previous bariatric surgery--nurses gave her advice like "Have you ever tried Weight Watchers?" (Insert guffaw: Trust me--a heavy kid/adult in those days had already tried EVERYTHING.).  Nowadays it seems families are encouraged to be more closely involved in a patient's care.

My sister just celebrated her 59th birthday and is healthy. 

 

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This seems weird to me.  I've been in hospital myself, and also accompanying other adults, and I call BS on this "the doctors wouldn't let us know anything."  In my experience, the doctor will direct themselves to the patient, because that's who decides. They have asked "are you happy for so-and-so to be in the room while we discuss this?" and if the answer is yes then they carry on. Which makes me think that either a) this guy is overly controlling and needs to accept that his children will all eventually be adults and have the right to make their own decisions, even when horrible stuff happens. Or B) there is some reason why his daughter doesn't want him interfering in her life.

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I hope this dad realises that with every action he does he is alienating his daughter more and more.

He'll probably end up with her not speaking to him any more, ever - no access to the grandkids, no family reunions, no reminiscing over childhood memories,  no interacting with her as an adult and an equal (which, my parents tell me, is the real reward for parenting - growing new friends).

Are a few more months / years of controlling her every move worth that?

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Um not being allowed to attend your adult child's appointments - that's because she doesn't want you there.

You aren't allowed to demand access to those appointments.  If she decided to take you with her, and asked for you to be in the room, you'd be allowed.  No one is going to ban a patient from deciding to bring someone with them to appointments unless there is concerns about abuse.


The answer to your problems is better parenting.   This would lead to one of two things - you trusting your adult to manage their own health without you overseeing it or them trusting you enough to choose to discuss it with you.

 

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17 hours ago, dianapavelovna said:

 Replace "parents" with "boyfriend," and let's see how much sympathy there would be to go around. 

Word.  Word.  Word.   I can't agree with this statement enough.

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This is disturbing. By the 'rules' a 22 year old college student in the rotc program would be subject to this. Can't you just hear it? "I'll have to ask my mom and dad if I can go on that training exercise, sir"

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On 10/13/2016 at 3:50 PM, dianapavelovna said:

Children of parents have no right to privacy. We have a responsibility to search EVERYTHING. Install an application like mobistealth or Mobil-spy on your kid's phone. Mobile-spy monitors a few more things, mobistealth doesn't let the child know a monitoring application is installed.

Interesting that there is no emphasis on teaching kids how to transition to adulthood and to handle adult responsibilities.   In lieu of this, there's only total control.  

For children raised in this environment, it's either total surrender of any sense of selfhood or (active or quiet) rebellion.  With either option, there's been no training on how to become a self-aware adult.  

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I've actually heard that sentiment before(from very non-fundamentalist parents).  "When they grow up, and start paying bills, and have their own place, they can have privacy.  Not before."

Edited by smittykins
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18 hours ago, smittykins said:

I've actually heard that sentiment before(from very non-fundamentalist parents).  "When they grow up, and start paying bills, and have their own place, they can have privacy.  Not before."

This is exactly how the (fundie-lite-ish) parents of someone dear to me are behaving right now. It's taking a horrible toll on him, especially as they've now extended it to restricting him from the internet (since they pay for it) and from a smartphone (since they gave it to him for a Christmas present.. wait, since they pay for the data on it) and yet somehow expect him to overcome clinical depression and find a job without the support of half his friend network (online friends) or his soul-rejuvenating hobbies (again accessed online, including his ability to play music) or the ability to apply online (guess where ALL employers expect you to apply nowadays....). And lecture him periodically for failing to meet these expectations.

OK, this turned into more of a personal rant than a relevant post. I'm incredibly upset by their "parenting" decision. This is for someone in his late twenties, still stuck living with parents.

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5 out of those 6 statements are true in my case. 

Lately, i've been going to a psychiatrist and a psychologist. My mother was allowed in with me as long as I gave my consent for it (I am in Spain,  and I see that it might be different over there).

I had quite a lot of freedom growing up. Just enough to teach me not to fall for strangers or to give up my whole identity to do something i'm not 100% comfortable with.

This is not a failure of the law, this is a failure by you failing to provide your daughter with the tools to be able to navigate the world by herself, and by failing to create a safely enough enviroment for her to return to

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I feel like parents like these have never read a parenting book or learned stages of development. It has been said before but my God,  your children are individuals who deserve a chance to succeed and fail on their own. We all encounter success and failure throughout our lives. You have to teach them how to make good decisions (and practice on smaller things.) and teach them how to cope with failures.

you don't treat an 18 year old like an 8 year old and expect them to cope well. You're setting them up for failure! Kids have to go through the stages of learning to be independent.

 Protection like his ideas is crippling. What happens when the parents die or become ill? You have a 45 year old child who can't handle basic life decisions & opportunities. They are failing their children in a major way.

Who said parenting is the one job that when you succeed, you become obsolete?

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1 hour ago, Chocolatedefrauded said:

Who said parenting is the one job that when you succeed, you become obsolete?

Well put! I once read something to the effect that one's job as a parent is to guide your child(ren) out of your life, and into happy, successful lives of their own.

The control-freak parents we discuss here make me nuts. 

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