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The Willis Family: Rape Charges Part 2


samurai_sarah

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12 minutes ago, Four is Enough said:

It's what she was permitted to do by Toby. She travelled, sure. But who could she talk to in New York who would help her? They lived in Tennessee, didn't they? And if they were followed by a camera crew, any little side trip would be recorded and noted in some way.

I do not deny that Brenda is a victim but Jessica was on the verge of emotional collapse and if her mother had told everything to someone, for example to a camera crew, I do not think they would have told toby but they could have provided help, especially after the scandal of josh duggar on their channel and toby had been arrested before Jessica had to run away and ask for help.

In the end it was Jessica who had to break the cycle of abuse and I think she had to put up with too much weight on her shoulders for the welfare of his family.

 

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24 minutes ago, apiscue said:

In the end it was Jessica who had to break the cycle of abuse and I think she had to put up with too much weight on her shoulders for the welfare of his family.

 

This is entirely possible.. that Brenda was a weaker vessel than one would hope to have for a mother. It happens. Not everyone can cope with the logistics of pulling a family of twelve kids away from a controlling, abusive father, not knowing how they will survive or where or how they will live. It's a daunting task.

I like to think that her actions immediately post arrest give her some slack.. she started doing the right thing right away. No "my husband is innocent" crap

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Re. Brenda's own upbringing, I believe it was stated in an early episode of the show that she was raised in a strict Catholic family. I remember that "background" episode, including her running from one religion to another, the majority of Toby's family dying in an accident, and the family losing all their things to a fire, made me go "ummm, is all of this NOT super traumatic?" It was a lot to kind of just summarize in a light hearted reality TV show.

This isn't to say that any of this matters. Horrific abuse can arise in any context. I could be wrong, but I don't think that Brenda had a secular, empowered "toolbox" of knowledge about abuse.

That said, is it not hard to understand good touching and bad touching and teach kids about it? No, it's not hard. But I don't think any of the fundie families we follow address that type of thing well (or I'd be surprised if they do, at least). Lots of secular families don't either.

The Willises are clearly living out a worst-case scenario, but I don't think Brenda was attending crisis intervention workshops and "Take Back The Night" marches before meeting Toby, by any measure.

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I've thought about this subject all my life. I grew up with a father very, very similar to Toby Willis. The only difference is he did not sexually abuse us (and my siblings and I were not beautiful and talented). But I know, from the core of my being, the terror, the violence, the threats of death, the horror of being battered or (even worse) seeing your siblings and mother battered. I've written about it on FJ before.

I loved my mother, deeply, and I know she loved us.  But she did not protect us. And I believe there is a difference between an abused child and an abused woman. To say Brenda was "helpless" is to sell her short. There was a lot she could do, even if she did not feel she could leave.

Even as a child, I could see it would be very difficult for my mother to leave. Although she was educated, it was the 60s and 70s. Daycare and battered women's shelters didn't really exist. There was no internet to seek out help. But I never understood why she didn't comfort or help us. Instead, she pretended my father's behavior wasn't really happening.

For 30 years, I have sought answers to why my mother didn't leave. Worse than that, why she refused to talk to us about it, comfort us, tell us it wasn't our fault. That would have made a world of difference. Instead, when my father would punch me, throw me down stairs, kick me in the ribs. . . she said nothing or acted like it was my fault. She insisted, though, that we tell no one "about your father". Even today I am uncomfortable writing about it. She died without ever really mentioning it.

Brenda had more advantages. She could have packed up those kids and fled to a battered women's shelter, any day of the week. I suspect that there were things that she didn't want to give up.

When 9 year old Jessica told her mother she was being raped, Brenda could have provided support and comfort, even if she felt she could not leave. She could have educated Jessica, and told her it was not her fault. She could have stopped having babies.  She could have checked in with her during the next 15 years ("Has your father been . .. " "Do you remember what I said about how it's not your fault. . ")

Instead, it seems Jessica, and her sisters, were completely alone. All those struggles Jessica was going through in her 20s. . . her mother did not help or support her. Where was her mom when Jessica was being beaten with a belt? In another part of the bus, doing paperwork? 

Where was Brenda when she heard Toby leaving their bedroom and head towards the girls' room? If she was too scared to stop him, why didn't she help those little girls afterwards? Explain. Provide vocabulary. Tell them it wasn't their fault. She did none of those things. And those girls were 10x more helpless because of it. Imagine their terror, guilt, and self-blame because no one told them it wasn't their fault.

If you are a mandated reporter, it is a crime not to report abuse. What Brenda did was a crime. Other than leave, here are some things she could have done:

told her grown sons what was happening so they could protect their sisters

sought help from family friends and relatives

sought information or help on the internet

told her girls to seek help on the internet

encourage her grown daughters to leave home, and help them do so

stop having babies

comfort her daughters, help them avoid their father, provide them with information about what was happening to them

Brenda  is doing all the right things now. But she lied when she said she had no idea. She was protecting herself. She's done too much of that over the years.Her girls were completely dependent on her, and she did not give them a bit of help.

It wouldn't surprise me if Brenda grew up in a dysfunctional home. But if you are going to cut her some slack for that reason, you also have to cut Toby some slack for the same reason. His childhood was horrific. I don't think we should cut either one any slack. They both failed their kids.

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44 minutes ago, apiscue said:

I do not deny that Brenda is a victim but Jessica was on the verge of emotional collapse and if her mother had told everything to someone, for example to a camera crew, I do not think they would have told toby but they could have provided help, especially after the scandal of josh duggar on their channel and toby had been arrested before Jessica had to run away and ask for help.

In the end it was Jessica who had to break the cycle of abuse and I think she had to put up with too much weight on her shoulders for the welfare of his family.

 

I give you great credit for your trust and faith in human decency.  I, on the other hand, am far more cynical.  A lot of people have been given no help whatsoever by their employers in domestic violence situations.  In fact I can give you many examples of victims who have been fired because the abuser (or abusive relationship) is seen as a problem for workplace productivity.

Quite honestly, the risks of confiding abuse and sexual abuse to anyone are enormous.  Confiding information to producers or a camera crew - people whose bread and butter depends on the continuation of the show - would be the last thing that I would do.  Especially people working for a cable network (TLC) that has continued to film families with the full knowledge that sexual abuse has been going on.  TLC only cancelled 19K&C when the news about Josh became public.  It had to have known before.  TLC only cancelled Honey Boo Boo when the news that Mama June had brought a sexual abuser into the home became public.  She tried to sue them for that, IIRC.

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23 minutes ago, Hisey said:

I

Brenda  is doing all the right things now. But she lied when she said she had no idea. She was protecting herself. She's done too much of that over the years.Her girls were completely dependent on her, and she did not give them a bit of help.

 

Did Brenda actually say this?  

Also, it seems we don't have enough information to say that she categorically did not give her children "a bit of help."

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@Hisey:  I'm sorry for what you had to endure and I hope you are in a good place now.  I appreciate your sharing your personal experience.  

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As a DV survivor, leaving isn't that easy. My X threatened me, threatened the children, threatened to keep my youngest (who was his bio kid). Even after he threw me out, the harassment didn't stop. He cut my brake lines, stalked me, told the most outrageous shit, would break into my apartment (when we finally had a place to live), call the kids' schools and make shit up, etc. 

It's so easy to say leave. Truth is, when you're married to an abusive fuck who wouldn't think twice about killing you or the children, it's almost safer to stay...at least you get to keep breathing. And, when you have no money, nowhere to go, and at least your kids have beds to sleep in and food in their bellies in your current situation...

I tried to leave three times. Finally he decided that we had to go (he reconnected with some girl he knew years before) and tossed us out at the end of his gun. We lived in a park for about a month, 4 people in a Dodge Grand Caravan. 

So...for all of you who wonder why she didn't take the children and leave...she was just as stuck as the kids...and when you're married to someone who's that violent, there's no guarantee you'll live through the attempt to leave. To get away from my X, I had to petition the court to move back to my hometown...finally there I could breathe again instead of wondering what he was going to do next. 

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To all of you survivors who have shared your stories, thank you. I’m amazed at your courage & eloquence. 

This whole story really is awful. I think made worse by the fact that (for me anyway) I watched the tv show & let my then 7 year old see it too. There was always something off with them as a family (Toby mainly) but it was easy to just dismiss it as being so far removed from them in belief system, Patriarchy  etc & that was what I thought made it slightly uncomfortable, much like I feel when I watch the Duggars & other similar families. I just can’t relate to them, but am morbidly fascinated. 

The reality that they experienced such horrific abuse whilst filming & being watched by so many,  both on tv & by a camera crew, is something I can’t get my head around. 

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7 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

In reality, the most dangerous time for any survivor is when they decide to leave.  That is when the abuser escalates and is most likely to become a killer.  Women have literally been gunned down on the courthouse steps. 

I have read that it's after they leave. If she knew this, then it would be "safer" for her to remain where she was so her children would not be killed. Does she stay and have them abused, or does she leave and have them killed? Tough choice, either way. 

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8 minutes ago, Jezzable said:

I have read that it's after they leave. If she knew this, then it would be "safer" for her to remain where she was so her children would not be killed. Does she stay and have them abused, or does she leave and have them killed? Tough choice, either way. 

The X tossed me & the kids out at the end of March. I moved back to my hometown in August. Those 5 months were almost worse than before he tossed us out. As I said, he cut the brake lines on my car (I couldn't prove it unfortunately), stalked me, called the kids' schools and told them I was on drugs, I abused the kids, etc. and ended up having numerous visits from CPS. All because he was some kind of sick fuck...when we went to court for our divorce, the judge asked him if there was any provision for child support. He told the judge "I'm not giving that bitch one thin dime and you can't fucking make me"...well, the judge damn sure did...and he had to scramble to borrow money from everyone to pay what the judge ordered him to pay THAT DAY. That just pissed him off more and the low-level harassment didn't end until #3 turned 18 (11 years after our split). 20+ years later, he STILL talks shit about me (I found out through some mutual friends and my stepdaughters). 

THAT is what it's like trying to get away from an abuser. It's an unending, unrelenting storm of shit. They won't give up that illusion of control. They see you leaving and then being successful as a direct threat to them. They're mentally ill...and most of them won't accept that they are the one with the problem. Gaslighting at its finest. 

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I've posted before that I went though seven years of sexual and emotional abuse.  I fucking told my mother, who told me that "it's nothing, he didn't mean anything," and still did nothing when my younger sister told her the same thing.  Only difference was,  my younger sister wasn't molested anymore.  I will never forgive my mother for not protecting me or my sister.  Mom was lazy, refused to get a job, and was "soooo in love" with my stepfather.  He cheated on her seriously with at least two other women, one of them a friend of my mother's.   Mom still just waited it out and I was working by then and gave her most of my paychecks..  Grampwych and I would never leave Wychling at my parents' place, and I made sure that my kid knew about "good" and "bad" touches and keeping secrets from her father and me.  After dad died,  I took care of Mom up to the last three years of her life hoping that she would ask my forgiveness and admit that she was wrong.  That never happened, and I got shit from my sisters about "abandoning" mom those last three years.  "Too fucking bad" was my reply. 

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10 hours ago, Pianokeeper said:

Did Brenda actually say this?  

Also, it seems we don't have enough information to say that she categorically did not give her children "a bit of help."

If you read Jessica's blog, you see she is completely alone. 

No one is saying that leaving is easy, or even safe. But being raped when you are 3 years old is not easy either. Besides, it's not just about leaving, as I said. It is about providing support and help to your daughters, even if you choose to stay. It sounds like Brenda did not talk about the rapes with them. She left them alone with it.

When it comes to little girls getting raped, it's never OK to do nothing. Never! I find it bizarre that anyone would defend Brenda's actions, and say it was excusable because it was scary/hard/difficult. Allowing little girls to be raped for years is NEVER EXCUSABLE.

 Yes, it's dangerous to leave, but people do it successfully. Are you saying the better option is to stay? Because I would disagree. And to keep on having babies. . . it's unbelievable that she would do that. 

10 hours ago, EmmieJ said:

@Hisey:  I'm sorry for what you had to endure and I hope you are in a good place now.  I appreciate your sharing your personal experience.  

Thank you! It was difficult to share. Yes, I am in a very good place now.

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6 hours ago, feministxtian said:

The X tossed me & the kids out at the end of March. I moved back to my hometown in August. Those 5 months were almost worse than before he tossed us out. As I said, he cut the brake lines on my car (I couldn't prove it unfortunately), stalked me, called the kids' schools and told them I was on drugs, I abused the kids, etc. and ended up having numerous visits from CPS. All because he was some kind of sick fuck...when we went to court for our divorce, the judge asked him if there was any provision for child support. He told the judge "I'm not giving that bitch one thin dime and you can't fucking make me"...well, the judge damn sure did...and he had to scramble to borrow money from everyone to pay what the judge ordered him to pay THAT DAY. That just pissed him off more and the low-level harassment didn't end until #3 turned 18 (11 years after our split). 20+ years later, he STILL talks shit about me (I found out through some mutual friends and my stepdaughters). 

THAT is what it's like trying to get away from an abuser. It's an unending, unrelenting storm of shit. They won't give up that illusion of control. They see you leaving and then being successful as a direct threat to them. They're mentally ill...and most of them won't accept that they are the one with the problem. Gaslighting at its finest. 

First of all, I'm so sorry you encountered this.  Scary w/o children, downright terrifying with.  

Second, there it is.  Why I don't feel it right to judge Brenda.  I have the same feelings as @laPapessaGiovanna.  I really do. I get it.  It's too hard not to as a knee jerk reaction and think of what we would do.  But, I have not been there, not even close.  I wish she could've done more.  However, how many stories are there that are so similar?  How many times do those stories include the law and family turning their backs on women and children in this sort of crisis?  Too many.  Rapists and abusers consistently get a lot less jail time than drug users.  It's a huge and very clear message to us women and mothers.  I can't pretend to know what it's like.  It's awful and evil and we want to make sense of it.

 

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It's so easy to make a judgment from a place of safety. I tried to leave him three times. All three attempts came close to harming me and the kids. It was safer to stay than to take my kids and leave. Finally he gave me an out and I ran with it. My kids and I are permanently scarred from this. 

To those of you who are judging Brenda, you're all wet. You do not know the terror of living with an abuser. 

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It is easy to judge when you have not been there.  When you've been there, you know it is not cut and dried, it is not easy and you made choices that seem horrific to the outside world, but at the time were the only thing that made any sense to keep the family as a whole alive to see another day.

Also it seems so much worse looking back and you beat yourself up daily thinking of all the things you could have, should have, would have done, if only you could go back and do it over/better.  I am sure that is where Brenda lives, and I pray she can forgive herself, her children forgive her, and she can move on to live a happy and fulfilled life, along with the children.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, slp said:

Also it seems so much worse looking back and you beat yourself up daily thinking of all the things you could have, should have, would have done, if only you could go back and do it over/better. 

That's something I'll live with the rest of my life...the regrets I have that I didn't get out earlier. 

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Blaming Brenda is vile.  She is the very first victim in this family. 

Think about the Duggars who blamed the media, not Josh.  

These women banded together and threw the asshole away. To allude that Brenda allowed this is so disgusting to me.  

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12 hours ago, feministxtian said:

As a DV survivor, leaving isn't that easy. My X threatened me, threatened the children, threatened to keep my youngest (who was his bio kid). Even after he threw me out, the harassment didn't stop. He cut my brake lines, stalked me, told the most outrageous shit, would break into my apartment (when we finally had a place to live), call the kids' schools and make shit up, etc. 

It's so easy to say leave. Truth is, when you're married to an abusive fuck who wouldn't think twice about killing you or the children, it's almost safer to stay...at least you get to keep breathing. And, when you have no money, nowhere to go, and at least your kids have beds to sleep in and food in their bellies in your current situation...

I tried to leave three times. Finally he decided that we had to go (he reconnected with some girl he knew years before) and tossed us out at the end of his gun. We lived in a park for about a month, 4 people in a Dodge Grand Caravan. 

So...for all of you who wonder why she didn't take the children and leave...she was just as stuck as the kids...and when you're married to someone who's that violent, there's no guarantee you'll live through the attempt to leave. To get away from my X, I had to petition the court to move back to my hometown...finally there I could breathe again instead of wondering what he was going to do next. 

This is horrific and made me cry. I feel so angry this happened to you and you had lived through such abuse. Thank you for sharing your story. It made me understand Brenda much more now.

I will admit that I, in my mind, felt disappointed that Brenda being a TV star and wife of someone with a $100 mil settlement couldn’t just afford to escape even with 12 kids but I had reminded myself she was a victim too. Besides, Toby probably kept the money completely locked up away from her as he was an abusive control freak. 

Do we know what happened to all of that money now anyway?

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3 hours ago, feministxtian said:

It's so easy to make a judgment from a place of safety. I tried to leave him three times. All three attempts came close to harming me and the kids. It was safer to stay than to take my kids and leave. Finally he gave me an out and I ran with it. My kids and I are permanently scarred from this. 

To those of you who are judging Brenda, you're all wet. You do not know the terror of living with an abuser. 

Would have it been safer to stay if he was raping and beating your children to the pulp? Because except seeing them being killed I can't think of anything worse honestly.

What leaves me speechless is that Brenda didn't even teach them the words to express themselves. Multiple children recounting of sexual abuse would have been enough to throw him in jail long before if they hadn't had to wait for the kids to learn on their own that they were living in the same hell, that it was wrong wrong wrong and the way to express it. Not to mention that the call to CPS came from someone outside the close family circle.

She also failed to teach them solidarity among victims, solidarity among siblings. You watch out for each other, you don't tattle to the monster to see your sister beaten to the pulp. Victims strength relies on unity and solidarity. According to Jessica every kid was on his/her own.

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11 hours ago, Granwych said:

I've posted before that I went though seven years of sexual and emotional abuse.  I fucking told my mother, who told me that "it's nothing, he didn't mean anything," and still did nothing when my younger sister told her the same thing.  Only difference was,  my younger sister wasn't molested anymore.  I will never forgive my mother for not protecting me or my sister.  Mom was lazy, refused to get a job, and was "soooo in love" with my stepfather.  He cheated on her seriously with at least two other women, one of them a friend of my mother's.   Mom still just waited it out and I was working by then and gave her most of my paychecks..  Grampwych and I would never leave Wychling at my parents' place, and I made sure that my kid knew about "good" and "bad" touches and keeping secrets from her father and me.  After dad died,  I took care of Mom up to the last three years of her life hoping that she would ask my forgiveness and admit that she was wrong.  That never happened, and I got shit from my sisters about "abandoning" mom those last three years.  "Too fucking bad" was my reply. 

I am so upset that this happened to you.

Thank you guys on FJ for sharing your brave stories. I feel really sick that so many hear have suffered horrific abuses.

Life just really, really sucks. I guess it’s time for me to watch some funny cat videos but my heart is broken by these stories. 

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Is it possible that Brenda was mentally checked out and put herself in another world?

I am aching for Jessica as the child victim of sexual abuse and assault and for Brenda as the DV abuse victim. It’s so tough when they both were victimized. I’m sure Jessica has a lot of pain that she wasn’t protected by her mother and I feel bad for Brenda too because in her mind, she was completely helplessly stuck.

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I don’t think it’s entirely fair to judge any family member in this except Toby. Unless we were there and lived it, we don’t know how or why things happened as they did. 

I knew a man who married a woman with a daughter from a previous marriage. The daughter’s father was well known and influential in the town. The parents had split custody. The father was sexually abusing the little girl but no one would believe the mother when she tried to protect her daughter. I don’t know all the details, just the terrible ending. Out of desperation, the mother decided that taking her daughter’s life and her own was the only way to end the abuse. She killed her daughter but was found before she herself died. She was severely stigmatized and became very mentally ill because she was viewed as a murderer by the people of the town. She rarely if ever, left her house after the trial. I have only sympathy for her. To be so desperate to protect her child and feeling like death was the only way out. She attempted suicide more than once, wishing to join her child.  The father’s life was outwardly unchanged.

All that to say mothers are harshly judged when often the fathers deserve judgement, but avoid it by placing blame on the mother. 

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When Jessica was 9, and first told her mother, she had 5 or 6 siblings - so either her mother was very pregnant or had a newborn. I can't imagine how someone could run, with 7 kids, including an infant and a toddler, especially if they were being deeply controlled.  Someone with 3 kids - well maybe you can all at least sleep in a car.  But 7 kids?

Jessica said her mother confronted her father, but he denied things, and I would imagine it's pretty easy to gaslight someone who's full of pregnancy hormones, and is in a vulnerable stage.  Especially if he was threatening to murder the children. 

But what I'm really upset about, with people blaming Brenda, is that over and over in her story, Jessica reiterates that it's just her story, that other family members have theirs.  We just don't know if Brenda had opportunities to do more that she didn't take, if she was a victim or an enabler - and it's shitty to parse Jessica's blog which she has explicitly stated is just about her PoV, to try to work that out.  The Occam's Razor approach is that if the whole family were being controlled, isolated, and mentally and physically abused, it is very likely Brenda was too, especially as the investigations haven't included the other kids being taken away from her.  And the mega-family thing smacks of abuse, now we know more, with Toby deliberately keeping her pregnant, to keep her controlled (as well as being able to make believable threats about the babies/toddlers), which credible research shows is something abusers do.

It's all awful - but 100% the blame lies with Toby.  We just don't have enough evidence to say "it's Brenda's fault, she had chances to leave and should have done more", when we're going off one blog that doesn't even begin to address that topic.

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On 4/14/2018 at 9:08 PM, laPapessaGiovanna said:

According to Jessicathe death threats started when she wrote down all the abuse, 13 years after her mother first found out.

To respond to this, I'm firstly gonna quote Jessica herself:

Quote

An initial awareness of questionable behavior began when I was around nine years old.  Something (I’m still not sure what) caused my mother to become suspicious of my father’s interactions. I didn’t realize there was zero evidence of anything specific and all I did was nod uncertainly when a few general questions were asked by my mother. I heard my mother raise her voice to my father for the first time in my life and I thought the adults would figure it out. I didn’t understand that my father simply denied any wrongdoing and became more secretive and dangerous from then on.

We don't know what those general questions were, but all Jessica has said was that they were 'general'. We do not know with certainty that Brenda knew 100% what was going on based on Jessica's interaction with her mother at the age of nine. 

I'm also going to draw attention to the line:

Quote

I didn’t understand that my father simply denied any wrongdoing and became more secretive and dangerous from then on.

I'm going to lightly draw a parallel to my experience. Content warning for recounting abuse (and in the spoiler so don't click if you need to avoid such content):

Spoiler

I was between 7 and 9 when I was groomed and sexually abused by my then-stepfather. I will not go into detail but I had been made to perform certain acts that I didn't know were inappropriate because they were framed as 'normal' or 'healthy'. That being said, he had sworn me to secrecy. I would be punished if I said anything to anyone. He had convinced me that if my mother knew, she wouldn't love me anymore.

I had also witnessed him hitting my mother and throwing her across the kitchen. I witnessed my mother sobbing on the floor and screaming at me to run to my room and close and lock my door and trying to call the police. I witnessed his strength. There was no way I was going to defy him, because what if he hit my mother again? what if he hit me? After all, I had been taught that there was nothing wrong with what he was doing to me or asking of me. 

There is only one occasion I can remember almost slipping up and telling my mother what had happened but I saw him in the other room and remembered him hitting and hurting my mother so I quickly backtracked and covered for him. I changed the conversation.

I went to a school that prioritised child safety. I had the vocabulary. I knew that strangers or adults asking to see or touch your privates was wrong, and if it happened I needed to see a trusted adult and tell them. But I didn't realise that being asked to touch someone else's privates was wrong. After all, why wouldn't I believe the person I called 'dad' to keep me safe and teach me what was okay? He told me it was healthy and natural, so I had to believe him. He said he loved me, so I had to believe him.

He told me that if my mother found out about everything, that she wouldn't love me anymore or want me around anymore. So I had to believe him.

Long story short - my opinion is that we can't expect a nine year old - regardless of upbringing - to perfectly articulate their circumstances in traumatic events. We also can't expect to draw perfect conclusions about a mother's ability to protect their child without knowing if they had complete knowledge of the situation. Jessica's statement refers to 'general questions' and since those questions are not specified in the post, I think any speculation that Brenda knowingly put her kids at risk and/or failed to act sooner is jumping the gun. 

Do I wish my mother had picked up on things? Sure. But I don't blame her. Abusers are very good at keeping all their victims exactly where they want them. 

@laPapessaGiovanna - I understand where you're coming from, I truly do. I just wanted to share the perspective of someone who had experienced similar things at the same age in case that helps provide a little clarity on what is an unbelievably messy and grey situation. I just don't think there is a black-and-white response to this. I feel for Jessica, I really do. But I also feel for Brenda, because we have no way of knowing what it is she went through and what she actually knew until she speaks out, too. I say this respectfully, I hope you know that I am not contradicting you just to be difficult. It's a really complex issue so i hope I have approached it with the respect and tact required.

@Lurky I think you articulated my feelings better than I could. Thank you. 

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