JonBenét Ramsey

[bingbangboom]

The cbs special said there was milk in the bowl of pineapple. I've never heard of anybody doing this, which makes the pineapple seem even weirder. 

what are the odds an intruder would eat the same (yucky sounding) snack with JB?

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, iweartanktops said:

Regarding the broken window, how does one climb through a window, but there are still cobwebs everywhere? And that intruder must be very thin. 

Perhaps it was one of these. I'd also like to add that they are obsessed with their image. They may not have taken her in or called 911 right away, because they didn't want people to look at them differently. Also, if there was prior abuse, that's a common reason for parents to cover up an accidental death. 

Another point I have to continue to remind myself of, is that just because I can't imagine parents doing certain things, doesn't mean it didn't happen. I follow many child murders. You'd be surprised and disgusted by what some parents have done to their children.

The bolded is true. The opposite, however, is of course also true - just because we can imagine a parent doing something horrible (like molesting or murdering their child) doesn't always make it true.

[ClaraOswin]

Three pages to catch up on? You guys are too quick for me. My son no longer naps, apparently. So I've had basically zero forum time. I feel so out of the loop! Before I go back and read (which may nor may not happen soon...) I thought I'd post a few comments....

I am fairly new to JBR. Until recently, I only knew the basics. I tried to learn more on websleuths but there are just so many threads. I have watched a few of the recent specials but they are mostly just sitting on my DVR. I seriously miss having free time.  Plus my RA pain has been bad so typing hurts.

Random thoughts in no order....

Not sure if I think Burke did it or the parents. I highly doubt it was an intruder. I mean, why the heck would an intruder write a 3 page note...with Ramsey paper/marker...and then put paper and marker back? Weird.

I clearly heard Burke's voice on the 911 call. Why would they lie about him being awake and in the room? Big red flag to me. Doesn't necessarily mean Burke did it. But I think it's a red flag that at least 1 of them is involved.

Patsy's 911 call bugs me. For one, why hang up? But two...the phrasing. It's not "my daughter was kidnapped!"  It's "we have a kidnapping."  Weird again.

The flashlight could be the weapon. Interesting on the CBS show when the kid hit the fake head with it.

But if it was the weapon, why would they leave it on the counter?

[ClaraOswin]

3 hours ago, 16strong said:

Patsy and Burke's fingerprints were found on the pineapple bowl. I think the most likely scenario is that Patsy fixed Burke a snack (it was fresh pineapple), and JB took some (it was her favorite snack). As for why JB was strangled and not taken to the hospital? Maybe they just panicked, but maybe they knew Burke would say too much in court-ordered counselling about family issues. I hope it's the former.

Or Patsy's fingerprints are on it from taking it out of the dishwasher and putting it away before Burke got it out to use it.

1 hour ago, iweartanktops said:

Regarding the broken window, how does one climb through a window, but there are still cobwebs everywhere? And that intruder must be very thin. 

Perhaps it was one of these. I'd also like to add that they are obsessed with their image. They may not have taken her in or called 911 right away, because they didn't want people to look at them differently. Also, if there was prior abuse, that's a common reason for parents to cover up an accidental death. 

Another point I have to continue to remind myself of, is that just because I can't imagine parents doing certain things, doesn't mean it didn't happen. I follow many child murders. You'd be surprised and disgusted by what some parents have done to their children.

Exactly. Most recently, poor Victoria Martens.  Her mother is a disgusting excuse for a human being.

1 hour ago, Chickenbutt said:

The DNA under her fingernails....I am trying to think of an alternative explanation. I wonder about the Christmas party at the White's house. Were the kids with the adults? Could JB have been playing with other kids? Playing tag, reaching out to grab another kid and drug her fingers across his skin? There could be so many explanations.

I cannot imagine that if it was an intruder, that this was his only crime, or he has never been caught and his DNA is not in the system. Who has a clean past, commits this crime, then goes on to never commit another crime? Or at least never get caught?

I think I read that the under the nails DNA was degraded or something. And that the nail clippers that were used on her were used on other people first and weren't cleaned.

[ClaraOswin]

Okay......So here's my current theory on what I think could have happened.....(Again...this is all just speculation on what could have happened....) Sorry it's long...

Burke got up to play with his toys and have a snack. JonBenet woke up and went downstairs. Maybe she took some of his pineapple. Maybe he got mad at her for whatever reason...typical sibling stuff. The flashlight (or something) was nearby and he grabbed it and hit her over the head. She goes down. He runs to get his parents. They send him back to bed. Patsy and John stage everything else. (Not sure who did what except the ransom note screams Patsy to me.) At this point, Burke doesn't even know he killed his sister. (Based on his recent interview and the old interview clips...he seems like someone with Asperger's or Autism to me so that could be related to how he wasn't super interested in the happenings on the morning after. Obviously I am not diagnosing him but it's just another possibility for his mannerisms and behavior. It really bugs me when people say he was acting like a psychopath or sociopath because plenty of people would act the same way in an interview. Especially someone on the spectrum. Doesn't make them a freak.)

Burke hears his mom screaming on the 911 call and goes downstairs. Which is why she quickly hangs up the call and you can hear him in the background. They tell Burke to go back to bed again...still not telling them what has fully happened.

Burke stays in his room all morning, maybe partly because he doesn't really want to know what is going on. Ignorance is bliss basically.

I think over the years, his parents really muddied up his memories. I think they didn't do him ANY favors as far as dealing with his sister's death.

If it was essentially an accident....I really don't get why they wouldn't immediately call the police. But John and Patsy don't really seem like normal people to me so who knows. I think maybe it all just spiraled out of control within those hours (10pm and 5:30am) and then there was no going back.

[iweartanktops]

1 hour ago, MayMay1123 said:

i wonder about some things i have recently read and heard and have some thoughts...the underwear was a much too big size 12, probably not Jonbenet's, she was probably a size 6-7 or so. where did they come from? did she have an accident at the Christmas party (or somewhere else even) and someone gave her a pair of their child's underwear? maybe the White's had an old pair there for some reason? maybe that's where foreign dna could have come into play...but...wasn't dna found under her fingernails? who's could that have been? the dna is a real sticking point for me, but...my theory is that Burke was having some pineapple, something happened and he hit Jonbenet with the flashlight...she is unconscious, but he doesn't know what is happening. after a bit he tried to wake her, maybe he was shaking her and then he poked her hard with the traintrack, thinking surely that would wake her up. eventually he had to wake the parents and tell them and they did everything from there. 

and yeah, John Mark Carr is scary creepy, but i found the gardener creepy too...does anyone know where i can watch the dr phil interviews?

According to Patsy, the size 12 underwear was from a package of days of the week Bloomies from Bloomingdale's. She said she had purchased them as a gift for her niece. I think when they were staging in the basement, they were looking for some underwear, and in a hurry/panic, they wiped JB off, and opened the package and put her in those. I think they didn't want to use any of her stained underwear, and those were nearby, to take to Charlevoix. 

42 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

The bolded is true. The opposite, however, is of course also true - just because we can imagine a parent doing something horrible (like molesting or murdering their child) doesn't always make it true.

Absolutely! Unfortunately, in this situation, this family seems to have had a lot to hide. Of course, I don't know exactly what those secrets are. 

21 minutes ago, ClaraOswin said:

Or Patsy's fingerprints are on it from taking it out of the dishwasher and putting it away before Burke got it out to use it.

Exactly. Most recently, poor Victoria Martens.  Her mother is a disgusting excuse for a human being.

I think I read that the under the nails DNA was degraded or something. And that the nail clippers that were used on her were used on other people first and weren't cleaned.

Yes, another devastating error. The medical examiner used the same nail clippers on a number of other bodies before JB. 

 

[nausicaa]

20 minutes ago, iweartanktops said:

According to Patsy, the size 12 underwear was from a package of days of the week Bloomies from Bloomingdale's. She said she had purchased them as a gift for her niece. I think when they were staging in the basement, they were looking for some underwear, and in a hurry/panic, they wiped JB off, and opened the package and put her in those. I think they didn't want to use any of her stained underwear, and those were nearby, to take to Charlevoix. 

Patsy had bought a package of the identical days of the week Bloomies for JonBenet (in her size) and her cousin (the size 12s). For whatever reason the package for her cousin was in JonBenet's dresser drawer. There could be a perfectly innocuous reason for that--running around with lots of shopping bags while putting things away at Christmastime.

But the retrieval of the size 12 underwear suggests John's involvement, at least in the cover up, to me, since I'm sure Patsy dressed JonBenet regularly and could see immediately those were much too large for her. (Not that fathers can't do this, but I got the feeling the Ramseys had a very traditional gender roles type marriage, and doubt John ever dressed the kids or knew details like their dress sizes.)

25 minutes ago, iweartanktops said:

Yes, another devastating error. The medical examiner used the same nail clippers on a number of other bodies before JB. 

Dafuq?

Are you kidding me? I never heard this before. In a case in which foul play is obviously involved???

[nausicaa]

And the CBS special was originally supposed to be three ninety minute episodes. They cut it down to two specials and edited out about an hour of the show. I'm really hoping they release the full length special on the internet. 

And yes, I'm obsessed. 

[HermioneSparrow]

Finished watching the CBS special, and I agree with their theory. It's been my theory for a very long time and I can't see why anyone would think there was an intruder. It's obvious what money and power can do, this case will never be solved. 

[Mela99]

Have any of them ever done Polygraphs before?

[16strong]

1 hour ago, Mela99 said:

Have any of them ever done Polygraphs before?

Only by polygraphers they (and their lawyers) hired. They refused more legitimate attempts because of drug testing requirements. I believe they failed a few until they finally managed to get an "inconclusive." By what means that was achieved, well...

Here's a good page I found about the polygraphs:

http://gemart.8m.com/ramsey/polygraph/

[VelociRapture]

I was thinking a but more about John's involvement - and one reason I think he was involved in a coverup from the very start is because he was the one who found JonBenét and then he moved her to the living room.

I can understand he could have  been acting from legitimate grief - it can make anyone do weird things at times. But I can also see the argument that he moved her body as part of a coverup too. Not only would it cause cross contamination due to the high volume of traffic in the living room that morning, but it would also explain why any of John's DNA was found on his daughter's body or the blanket. If he had been the one to carry her to the basement, then his DNA would have transferred to her clothing or skin. Finding and moving her body would give an innocent explanation for that.

And I still think the blanket is a very telling detail. The person involved likely wouldn't have covered her like that unless they cared a great deal for her - looking at her little body could have been too much for them or it could have been done out of a parental instinct to protect and comfort as I suggested earlier. I think this really points towards people involved knowing her well and wanting to make some sort of gesture to atone or something.

(Not worded the best, but hopefully you get what I mean.)

[Mela99]

I'm slowly compiling a list of all these comments so I can make note of things when I watch all the specials. Should I start with the ID or the CBS special?

I wonder if this being the 20th anniversary they might finally make an arrest...

[Kailash]

Something interesting on the polygraph page that @16strong posted is that John Ramsey's executive secretary passed a polygraph about a conversation she overheard about how Patsy caught John molesting JBR, swung something at him, and accidentally hit JBR instead. I know they determined that she hadn't been molested that night, but the autopsy showed she had endured ongoing sexual abuse, according to the Bonita Papers anyway. (Something I found on Forums for Justice.)

link here:

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?10255-Autopsy-evidence-of-ONGOING-SEXUAL-ABUSE

 

If this happened, it could explain why they were both willing to go along with a cover up.

[Chickenbutt]

I am not convinced about the sexual abuse. Vaginitis can have many causes...

https://www.verywell.com/vaginitis-symptoms-and-treatments-2633512

Prepubertal vaginitis - often non-infectious and caused by poor hygiene techniques or irritation (bubble baths, harsh soaps, wet clothing, etc.). A retained piece of toilet paper can also lead to irritation and discharge.

I did read that about the secretary saying that. I am not sure what to think. But then again who knows, this case is so bizarre.

On one of the shows in the last few days (I think the CBS show), the investigators discounted the claims of ongoing sexual abuse. Again, who knows.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

10 hours ago, iweartanktops said:

Regarding the broken window, how does one climb through a window, but there are still cobwebs everywhere? And that intruder must be very thin. 

Perhaps it was one of these. I'd also like to add that they are obsessed with their image. They may not have taken her in or called 911 right away, because they didn't want people to look at them differently. Also, if there was prior abuse, that's a common reason for parents to cover up an accidental death. 

Another point I have to continue to remind myself of, is that just because I can't imagine parents doing certain things, doesn't mean it didn't happen. I follow many child murders. You'd be surprised and disgusted by what some parents have done to their children.

To your bolded I have to remind myself of the same thing.  I do have a bias where I want the perpetrator to be an outsider always - because the betrayal of trust makes it so much worse. But as we all come at this from our own perspectives for me the only way a coverup makes sense is if Burke did it.  Parents pulling together to protect him is at least something I can understand, if not condone.  But not THAT coverup.  Put her st the bottom of the stairs and say she fell.  Say they were playing and accident or whatever but the garrote and sexual staging?

I can't wrap my head around how that was even a thought.  And two of them going along with that?

And besides, the coroner found cause of death strangulation so even if Burke hit her and accidentslly caused the head injury whomever tied the garrote killed her.

As a parent i think instinct would kick in and immediately call 911...and then try to figure out how the accident happened because I wouldn't be able to conceive of it being anything but an accident if it was my other child.  

If a spouse?  No coverup, no denial...for his sake he'd hope the cops would find them before I figured out what happened.

 

12 hours ago, 16strong said:

Patsy and Burke's fingerprints were found on the pineapple bowl. I think the most likely scenario is that Patsy fixed Burke a snack (it was fresh pineapple), and JB took some (it was her favorite snack). As for why JB was strangled and not taken to the hospital? Maybe they just panicked, but maybe they knew Burke would say too much in court-ordered counselling about family issues. I hope it's the former.

I'd assume my fingerprints are on every dish in our cabinets since I unload the dishwasher.  Tbh family fingerprints and lack of others doesn't mean much to me since people touch stuff all the time without leaving prints.  

What I don't get is if it's a coverup why not just say she ate some before bed?  Seems like that was a surprise to them and they didn't know how to respond.

agreed with everyone who said no way will we get a resolution, at least not without a confession...way too many mistakes from the PD to recover.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

4 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

I was thinking a but more about John's involvement - and one reason I think he was involved in a coverup from the very start is because he was the one who found JonBenét and then he moved her to the living room.

I can understand he could have  been acting from legitimate grief - it can make anyone do weird things at times. But I can also see the argument that he moved her body as part of a coverup too. Not only would it cause cross contamination due to the high volume of traffic in the living room that morning, but it would also explain why any of John's DNA was found on his daughter's body or the blanket. If he had been the one to carry her to the basement, then his DNA would have transferred to her clothing or skin. Finding and moving her body would give an innocent explanation for that.

And I still think the blanket is a very telling detail. The person involved likely wouldn't have covered her like that unless they cared a great deal for her - looking at her little body could have been too much for them or it could have been done out of a parental instinct to protect and comfort as I suggested earlier. I think this really points towards people involved knowing her well and wanting to make some sort of gesture to atone or something.

(Not worded the best, but hopefully you get what I mean.)

I'm with you - it could have been calculated but if not a cover up I can easily see a parent for sure pulling the tape off her mouth and holding her...bringing her upstairs.  If that was mine I'd need to be restrained from not holding her.  I have a painful visceral reaction just typing that.  

The blanket is a heart wrenching factor, but honestly I'd cover up any dead body if one was in my presence.  The Villesca axe murderer covered all the mirrors in the house with clothing, one theory is so he didn't have to see what he was doing.  And covered them all after they were dead.  

but I've heard about the atonement theory too, like the brain is trying to undo the horrific act.

My biggest issue with the intruder theory is no concern about calling the cops after being told they'd kill her if they did?  Not setting the alarms later while still having their minor son at home?  Wanting to travel the next day and not demand to be part of the investigation to find out who did this?  

We all grieve differently and I hate when they say Patsy getting angry was a sign she was lying.  If my kid was murdered and I knew I didn't do it and the cops kept accusing me I'd be pissed, too.  But the above actions aren't body language or different ways of processing trauma IMO, they are the actions of people who don't think they have anything to fear from outsiders because they know there was no threat out there.

[iweartanktops]

Bravo! I love @HerNameIsBuffy

I have much more to say, but sleepy!

[Blahblah]

14 hours ago, bingbangboom said:

The cbs special said there was milk in the bowl of pineapple. I've never heard of anybody doing this, which makes the pineapple seem even weirder. 

what are the odds an intruder would eat the same (yucky sounding) snack with JB?

Has anyone here heard of having pineapple in milk, let alone eaten it? Is it a regional thing? 

[VelociRapture]

6 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

To your bolded I have to remind myself of the same thing.  I do have a bias where I want the perpetrator to be an outsider always - because the betrayal of trust makes it so much worse. But as we all come at this from our own perspectives for me the only way a coverup makes sense is if Burke did it.  Parents pulling together to protect him is at least something I can understand, if not condone.  But not THAT coverup.  Put her st the bottom of the stairs and say she fell.  Say they were playing and accident or whatever but the garrote and sexual staging?

I can't wrap my head around how that was even a thought.  And two of them going along with that?

And besides, the coroner found cause of death strangulation so even if Burke hit her and accidentslly caused the head injury whomever tied the garrote killed her.

As a parent i think instinct would kick in and immediately call 911...and then try to figure out how the accident happened because I wouldn't be able to conceive of it being anything but an accident if it was my other child.  

If a spouse?  No coverup, no denial...for his sake he'd hope the cops would find them before I figured out what happened.

 

I'd assume my fingerprints are on every dish in our cabinets since I unload the dishwasher.  Tbh family fingerprints and lack of others doesn't mean much to me since people touch stuff all the time without leaving prints.  

What I don't get is if it's a coverup why not just say she ate some before bed?  Seems like that was a surprise to them and they didn't know how to respond.

agreed with everyone who said no way will we get a resolution, at least not without a confession...way too many mistakes from the PD to recover.

They found on the CBS show that strangulation was not the cause of death though - the traumatic blow to the head was. The Doctor who concluded that has a ton of expertise in the area (he worked the JFK assassination case for example.) He said there could have been an illusion of life due to her heart continuing to beat a short while, but the cause of death was blunt force trauma to the head. 

I seriously doubt her parents would have strangled her to death if she had a pulse. And I'm not convinced that Burke would have had the knowledge or strength needed to make the garrote. I think that was part of the staging in order to draw attention from the actual cause of death.

They also explained on the show that there wasn't any evidence found supporting sexual abuse in general. There was some irritation in the vaginal canal, but not really to the extent you'd see with recent or recurring sexual abuse. So I'm doubting the idea that they deliberately staged it to look like a sexually based attack and murder. 

As for the pineapple explanation - I doubt they knew she had eaten pineapple at first. The question may have caught them off guard - or they may have known at that point that the pineapple wasn't digested enough to make a pre-bedtime snack a plausible explanation. They talked about on the show how they apparently were given some police reports to look at before they spoke with police. They could have seen the information about the pineapple there.

[Mela99]

12 hours ago, Kailash said:

Something interesting on the polygraph page that @16strong posted is that John Ramsey's executive secretary passed a polygraph about a conversation she overheard about how Patsy caught John molesting JBR, swung something at him, and accidentally hit JBR instead. I know they determined that she hadn't been molested that night, but the autopsy showed she had endured ongoing sexual abuse, according to the Bonita Papers anyway. (Something I found on Forums for Justice.)

link here:

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?10255-Autopsy-evidence-of-ONGOING-SEXUAL-ABUSE

 

If this happened, it could explain why they were both willing to go along with a cover up.

Oh wow .... That's the first time I heard that. 

I might be remembering wrong but I thought she had been sexually abused ... Gah. Weekend needs to come so I can WATCH the specials and not just wonder. 

[General Jinjur]

I'm definitely in the BDI camp. I would love to see the rest of those early interviews with him. The way he acted when he was shown the picture of the bowl of pineapple cinched it for me.

[OyToTheVey]

I finally watched the CBS special. Wow! Did you guys hear that Burke's lawyer is already suing CBS. CBS replied with a statement saying they're willing to back their investigation in court.

[Mela99]

I'm not surprised they're getting sued. I could see a potential action for defamation or invasion of privacy.

[OyToTheVey]

5 minutes ago, Mela99 said:

I'm not surprised they're getting sued. I could see a potential action for defamation or invasion of privacy.

The lawsuit is for defamation. So not very surprising. But the evidence is just damning.