JonBenét Ramsey

[iweartanktops]

I'm finally starting a thread for us to discuss the murder of JonBenét Ramsey.

Some background information and links:

JonBenét was 6 years old on December 25th and 26th, 1996. She lived with her parents, John and Patsy, and her brother, 9 year old, Burke. Allegedly, Patsy woke up the morning after Christmas, and found a long ransom note on the bottom of the back staircase. 

Patsy called 911. She also called numerous family friends. Friends and law enforcement soon arrived. Several hours later, John found JonBenét wrapped in a blanket in a small cellar-type room of the basement. 

There are many theories of what led to JB's death. Some believe an intruder is guilty, some believe John and/or Patsy are guilty. And some believe that Burke is guilty, and John and Patsy staged the scene to cover for their remaining child. 

Here is a link with more details. 

Everyone, please feel free to post links to other articles, information and TV specials. 

***

I tried to remain neutral in my summary above. My personal belief, after hours of research, is that there is no evidence of an intruder, whatsoever. I firmly believe that John, Patsy and Burke have knowledge of the crime. I lean towards Burke did it with the parents covering up, but I'm open to other theories. 

[HermioneSparrow]

Yes, finally a thread to discuss this horrific case. I'm about to watch the CBS special, the ID one was BS.

[nausicaa]

18 minutes ago, HermioneSparrow said:

Yes, finally a thread to discuss this horrific case. I'm about to watch the CBS special, the ID one was BS.

The CBS special is really interesting, but definitely is taking the angle that Burke killed her and the parents helped cover it up. It's doing a great job of it and really swaying me in that direction. 

I just don't know how else to explain the pineapple, the completely bizarre ransom note, and their standoffish attitude with the police.

For those who are following the case: why did they lie about the pineapple? Why not use paper from outside the house? Why write such a LOOONG ransom note? What's up with the size 12 panties?

[polecat]

I believe that JR did it and is really pushing the BDI angle behind the scenes because it takes the attention off him and because he knows his son will never do time for it even if everyone thinks he did it (because he'd have been tried as a juvenile in all likelihood). And I think Burke might have had some knowledge but maybe didn't realize it's importance (which is why they kept him from the cops at that time) back then. It's also entirely possible that his parents messed with his mind over the years and managed to confuse his memories so that he's not sure what's true and what's not at this point.

 

Regardless, yes, I do realize that Burke COULD have done it, but John is by far the most likely suspect and the most probable one, and he is the one I think was guilty. I think Patsy knew all along that he was hurting one or both of the kids and kept her mouth shut, and she covered this up, too, either because he was her meal ticket or for other reasons of her own. They are/were both sick people. I feel sorry for Burke and angry for JBR. Neither one of them will ever get justice for what was taken from them.

[OyToTheVey]

I don't know. I can't wrap my head around it even 20 years later. Anyone see the Dr Phil interview? Who was Burke looking at the whole time? He kept glancing towards the person to the side of the camera. I never thought the family did it but that interview with Burke is just bizarre. He shows zero emotion. Like none. He kept saying I think or maybe. Ummm no at 9 I'm sure you'll remember the day your baby sitter died. 9 is old enough to have full cognition and memory of traumatic event. I just never thought the family did it. The suit case and the broken window. Back then no one really had home alarms. IDK I need to watch the CBS special. I watched the others. 

[16strong]

Prefacing with the fact that this is simply my opinion/hypothesis/intuition, and in no way fact: Of course John is pushing the Burke did it angle, regardless of whether he did it or not, because he can't be charged with murder. However, BDI does make sense when you add in the possibility of the entire clan and maybe a few friends engaging in behaviors they should not have. Exposing one person or detail would expose the rest. To be a little more specific, all of John's children, including his older ones, had bedwetting issues. Evidence points to Burke having had behavioral/scatting issues. We all know what the autopsy said about JB, and there have long been rumors about Patsy's dad abusing all three of his daughters. Investigators even asked Patsy about this, but like everything else, she denied it (but not convincingly).

[nausicaa]

33 minutes ago, polecat said:

Regardless, yes, I do realize that Burke COULD have done it, but John is by far the most likely suspect and the most probable one, and he is the one I think was guilty. I think Patsy knew all along that he was hurting one or both of the kids and kept her mouth shut, and she covered this up, too, either because he was her meal ticket or for other reasons of her own. They are/were both sick people. I feel sorry for Burke and angry for JBR. Neither one of them will ever get justice for what was taken from them.

If it's John, why is there the head trauma and then the garrotte added? That's the one part that doesn't make sense to me. I go back and forth between Burke and John. 

@OyToTheVey I agree about it being weird that Burke keeps saying he can't remember. I was nine when my brother had his first seizure, in a shopping mall, and I remember TONS about that day. There are details burned into my mind, and even though I was only nine, I could tell you a pretty comprehensive account of what happened and who was doing what. Obviously, your kid sister being murdered would be about 100x as memorable.

[iweartanktops]

59 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

The CBS special is really interesting, but definitely is taking the angle that Burke killed her and the parents helped cover it up. It's doing a great job of it and really swaying me in that direction. 

I just don't know how else to explain the pineapple, the completely bizarre ransom note, and their standoffish attitude with the police.

For those who are following the case: why did they lie about the pineapple? Why not use paper from outside the house? Why write such a LOOONG ransom note? What's up with the size 12 panties?

The pineapple sways me more towards Burke. I think in the chaos of whatever happened (if BDI), the parents didn't notice the kids had been eating pineapple. One of the only times Patsy has seemed genuine, is when asked about the pineapple. I think that Burke either served it to JB, or ate with her that night. Then whatever happened, happened, he told his parents, then the cover up. I think they overlooked it. 

The random note was hands down, written by Patsy. I think she thought she was being clever, but she went way over board. The ransom note also gives them away, for various reasons. It said that between 8 and 10am, they would receive a phone call. But 10am passed, and no one freaked out! That's crazy to me. Any parent who read that note would be watching the clock, and would be hysterical at 10, with no call. Also, the note said that if they told anyone, JonBenét would be BEHEADED. So their response is to call half the neighborhood to come over? And then the police arrive in marked cars, and they don't mind? Wtf? Patsy didn't even stay on the phone with 911, or ask them what to do. 

The size 12 underwear is interesting. I think possibly John was given the task of cleaning her up and changing her clothes. Or, they used those because, IIRC, they were the only ones in the house that weren't soiled. Which opens another can of worms about why these kids were constantly bed-wetting and smearing feces! 

They weren't just stand-offish with police, they were completely uncooperative. I think I would have called my lawyer if my kid accidentally died. It's the wise thing to do. But you bring your lawyer to the police interview, FFS, because you want to help find the person who killed your kid! 

I get a little passionate about this.

[nausicaa]

@iweartanktops 100% agree that the ransom note is Patsy's doing. Honestly, if it weren't for the damn note, I really could be convinced it was an outsider. 

 

[iweartanktops]

11 minutes ago, 16strong said:

Prefacing with the fact that this is simply my opinion/hypothesis/intuition, and in no way fact: Of course John is pushing the Burke did it angle, regardless of whether he did it or not, because he can't be charged with murder. However, BDI does make sense when you add in the possibility of the entire clan and maybe a few friends engaging in behaviors they should not have. Exposing one person or detail would expose the rest. To be a little more specific, all of John's children, including his older ones, had bedwetting issues. Evidence points to Burke having had behavioral/scatting issues. We all know what the autopsy said about JB, and there have long been rumors about Patsy's dad abusing all three of his daughters. Investigators even asked Patsy about this, but like everything else, she denied it (but not convincingly).

Do you have a source for this? I've never been able to get my hands on anything solid about John's other kids. If they all had bed-wetting issues, one or more of these things are likely:

1. A hereditary medical condition 

2. Abuse, most likely sexual 

I've always had a hard time with Burke doing the sex abuse with the paintbrush. I'm sorry, this is graphic, but I don't know that a 9 year old could figure that out easily. However, if he did this, he was probably a very disturbed child. So it would make sense if he had been a victim of abuse. I would love to know more about John's older kids! 

I think there was almost certainly abuse in the house. The combination of the bed-wetting and soiling, along with 33 doctors visits for JB in two years. Something was not right. So either John and/or Patsy were abusing the kids, or Burke had some significant psychological issues, and John and Patsy neglected to get help. 

3 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

@iweartanktops 100% agree that the ransom note is Patsy's doing. Honestly, if it weren't for the damn note, I really could be convinced it was an outsider. 

 

I almost could. The head bash was 40-90 minutes before the garrotte. I'm not sure an intruder would be hanging around that long. Wouldn't most kidnappers just grab the kid and go? 

[nausicaa]

5 minutes ago, iweartanktops said:

I almost could. The head bash was 40-90 minutes before the garrotte. I'm not sure an intruder would be hanging around that long. Wouldn't most kidnappers just grab the kid and go? 

Well that's the other thing--it's obviously not a kidnapping, so why leave the note? Why kill the child if you just want money? She was obviously murdered before the Ramseys even had time to deliver the $118,000 (oh, and a $118,000 ransom from a millionaire??) It's the note that throws everything super wonky.

And yeah, even if you intended to kill the child, wouldn't you take her with you first, or just take the body with you? Who would leave the body in a slightly less used room in the basement as if she wouldn't be found by desperate parents or just an active little brother who could be exploring who knows where? 

[iweartanktops]

@nausicaa, not to mention, John's bonus was $118,000 and some change. 

[OyToTheVey]

The note was definitely Patsy. I just can't get past Burkes behavior. The only reason you would have half of the neighborhood in your house, cleaning, moving things around is to cover something up. Plus that cop that was left with them fucked everything up. She was completely incompetent. If she was an experienced homicide detective, she would have had no problem finding clues. But it's the Dr Phil interview. I can't get it out of my head. I hate diagnosing people via TV but it's just typical sociopathic behavior that he exhibits. The smiling, the looking around, the I'm not sures. IDK maybe I'm wrong.

[polecat]

46 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

If it's John, why is there the head trauma and then the garrotte added? That's the one part that doesn't make sense to me. I go back and forth between Burke and John. 

@OyToTheVey I agree about it being weird that Burke keeps saying he can't remember. I was nine when my brother had his first seizure, in a shopping mall, and I remember TONS about that day. There are details burned into my mind, and even though I was only nine, I could tell you a pretty comprehensive account of what happened and who was doing what. Obviously, your kid sister being murdered would be about 100x as memorable.

 

I don't think he intentionally killed her. I think the head trauma was inflicted accidentally, and everything else was staged to cover up the initial crime. 

Burke maybe CAN'T remember everything. I think it's entirely possible that his parents have thoroughly muddied his memories. They were really good at dissembling and obfuscating the press and the police; I can't even imagine what fuckwittery they exposed their kid to on a day-to-day basis. I'm not necessarily defending him -- but I grew up in a family with a lot of abuse and gaslighting, and I get how it can happen.

[16strong]

@iweartanktops 

Quote

19 LOU SMIT: Would there have been anything

20 -- I know there was a bedwetting problem or

21 something. And they do have certain kinds of

22 devices for bedwetting to avoid the leak. I don't

23 know what that means. But anything on that ever

24 occurred that you recall?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean we read about that,

0367

1 and of course, I don't know if JonBenet had a

2 bedwetting problem; I'm not sure she did. I think

3 all kids wet their beds; I know my older kids

4 certainly did. The kids used to wear these all

5 night pampers or whatever they were called. I

6 wouldn't classify it as a bedwetting problem that

7 I was aware of.

8 MIKE KANE: You weren't aware of one?

9 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

10 MIKE KANE: I guess that's relative term,

11 a bedwetting problem. And I don't mean to define

12 it, but just for our purposes here, let's define

13 it as once a week.

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay.

15 MIKE KANE: Let's say that is a problem.

16 Were you aware whether under that definition that

17 maybe once a week or more that she would wet the

18 bed?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I wasn't even aware of that.

20 But I think that wouldn't be at all abnormal.

21 MIKE KANE: Based on?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Based on having raised four

23 older kids. I don't know. Melinda would

24 occasionally wet her bed. She would have been

25 Burke's age. I don't think she was much older.

0368

1 MIKE KANE: Was she treated for that?

2 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

3 MIKE KANE: How about your other children?

4 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Not that I'm aware of.

5 MIKE KANE: Do you have any specific recollection

6 of the other children?

7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well John Henry did, I think,

8 occasionally (INAUDIBLE).(INAUDIBLE) diaper stage

9 to no diapers.

10 MIKE KANE: But beyond us, I think that's

11 two or three years old, six or seven.

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I think that was very

13 normal in our family.

I think JB also had some issues with defecation in addition to bedwetting, but I'll have to go source that.

[polecat]

1 minute ago, 16strong said:

@iweartanktops 

I think JB also had some issues with defecation in addition to bedwetting, but I'll have to go source that.

 

She did. All her underwear had stains on them, according to one source, and I remember that one source mentioned she pooped in her bed periodically as well. And weren't there no toilet paper holders in the bathrooms? Not that that has much to do with voluntary/involuntary encopresis, but it always struck me as beyond strange.

Here's a good source for lots of stuff (for anyone who has time to go hunting through miles and miles of docs): http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetindex.htm <--- scroll to "ACandyRose's "JonBenet Ramsey" Web Links and Archive Files"

[iweartanktops]

Thanks, @16strong! Was this in John's deposition? I'm not being snarky, I just can't believe I missed it! There was also a smearing issue in the house. Smearing feces is a major red flag for mental health issues. I'm astounded that John did not think it was a problem that Melinda was wetting her bed at 9 years old. There's nothing normal about that. I need to review the interviews again. This case breaks my heart. There was clearly a lot of dysfunction in the family. 

Thanks, again! Now I'm leaning towards John abusing them. For it to be Burke, I'd have to believe he's extremely disturbed. And that may be true. Hmmm... 

*sorry for my shitty writing. I just can't pull it together today! 

@polecat, thank you for linking A Candy Rose. There's a wealth of information on there. I'm trying to work my way through for the second or third time! 

[iweartanktops]

1 hour ago, OyToTheVey said:

The note was definitely Patsy. I just can't get past Burkes behavior. The only reason you would have half of the neighborhood in your house, cleaning, moving things around is to cover something up. Plus that cop that was left with them fucked everything up. She was completely incompetent. If she was an experienced homicide detective, she would have had no problem finding clues. But it's the Dr Phil interview. I can't get it out of my head. I hate diagnosing people via TV but it's just typical sociopathic behavior that he exhibits. The smiling, the looking around, the I'm not sures. IDK maybe I'm wrong.

I have not seen the Dr. Phil interview. But I completely agree about the way LE handled it! When I was reading Foreign Faction, my jaw dropped in the very beginning! So many fuck ups. The cops arriving in marked cars, allowing all those people inside. What the hell? Everyone should have been removed from the house, and all 3 remaining family members questioned separately. And how did they let Burke just bounce? Craziness. 

I have to give the Ramseys credit, though, for one thing. Their legal team kicked ass. They got in front of the whole investigation, and intimidated witnesses. They totally twisted the DNA information to try to make it true evidence. I think a lot of people don't bother to read about touch DNA. If I was murdered right now, I'd have touch DNA all over me. It wasn't DNA from saliva, blood, or semen. It was a few skin cells. 

[Chickenbutt]

I have watched all the specials and the stupid Dr. Phil show (except I missed todays). Depending on the show I watch, depends on who I think did it. The CBS special last nite confirmed what I think. I think Burke had been abusing JB and that night he went downstairs with the flashlight to play with some toy he got for Christmas and JB got up and came downstairs. They ate some pineapple and Burke took her down to the wine cellar to abuse her and she started fighting and Burke hit her with the flashlight knocking her unconscious. After that, I think that Patsy was instrumental in covering up the crime and staged it to look like a kidnapping, hence the garrote, ransom letter, phone call to 911 etc. She thought she had just lost one child and couldn't face losing the other so she had to save him. I am not sure what I think about John being aware of it AT THAT TIME, but I think he was eventually told the details by Patsy.

I have never heard of the feces spreading issue.

Touch DNA, did you know that the Eichenbooms (sp) that did the touch DNA in JBR case and in Casey Anthony Case, was recently discredited?

[16strong]

19 minutes ago, iweartanktops said:

Thanks, @16strong! Was this in John's deposition? I'm not being snarky, I just can't believe I missed it! There was also a smearing issue in the house. Smearing feces is a major red flag for mental health issues. I'm astounded that John did not think it was a problem that Melinda was wetting her bed at 9 years old. There's nothing normal about that. I need to review the interviews again. This case breaks my heart. There was clearly a lot of dysfunction in the family. 

Thanks, again! Now I'm leaning towards John abusing them. For it to be Burke, I'd have to believe he's extremely disturbed. And that may be true. Hmmm... 

*sorry for my shitty writing. I just can't pull it together today! 

@polecat, thank you for linking A Candy Rose. There's a wealth of information on there. I'm trying to work my way through for the second or third time! 

Yes, from 1998. It's information I am very surprised he gave, but here it is. And seconding A Candy Rose. I spent a lot of time there years ago out of fascination, and it's truly a wealth of information, but a rabbit hole to be sure.

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, OyToTheVey said:

The note was definitely Patsy. I just can't get past Burkes behavior. The only reason you would have half of the neighborhood in your house, cleaning, moving things around is to cover something up. Plus that cop that was left with them fucked everything up. She was completely incompetent. If she was an experienced homicide detective, she would have had no problem finding clues. But it's the Dr Phil interview. I can't get it out of my head. I hate diagnosing people via TV but it's just typical sociopathic behavior that he exhibits. The smiling, the looking around, the I'm not sures. IDK maybe I'm wrong.

I don't think it's entirely fair to draw conclusions from the single interview he had ever given on his sister's death. His parents shielded him heavily from reporters and outsiders after she died. He also grew up knowing people thought he killed his sister as well - that's a heavy burden for a kid to bear, regardless of if he did it or not. 

I honestly think that could make anyone kind of uncomfortable or seem really awkward during a nationally televised interview. It's way outside his comfort zone and sometimes people react strangely when they feel that uncomfortable.

And yes. The Boulder PD was nowhere near equipped to deal with a murder case in general - needless to say, they made countless mistakes during the investigation. It wouldn't surprise me if those mistakes prevent justice from ever being served at this point.

----- 

I'm keeping my personal opinion to myself. At least for now. I've been looking at the evidence and have yet to form a firm opinion about what may or may not have happened. I wouldn't want to accuse anyone - but especially a member of her family - of being responsible for her death or for abusing her without first looking at the relevant evidence. I was only 8 when it happened, so I'm trying to play catch up.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

I missed the special last night - going to watch tonight's and then catch up with the first.  I've been reading about this since it happened and have never bought in to the BDI theory - so interested to see how it's presented.  For me it was always the ransom note and the fact that they didn't care about the timeline or nervous about how obvious it was they called cops and everyone in Boulder immediately.

i know it's creepy becusse real people, but I've always been fascinated by true crime stuff.  We so need threads on Lizzie Borden and the Jeffrey McDonald case.

eta I didn't see the Dr. Phil special yet but I co-sign @VelociRapture 's thoughts that demeanor in interview doesn't mean anything.  I'd come off like a total sociopath on tv, too, especially if the subject matter was deeply personal to me.

[ADoyle90815]

I've seen some of the specials about this case, but not the Dr Phil interview with Burke. It's possible that he might have blocked out all memories of Jon Benet's murder, so he seems to be acting strangely when talking about his sister. No matter who actually killed her, the Boulder PD really fucked up by not fully securing the crime scene, to the point where justice will never be served as there's no way a jury can convict anyone.

[iweartanktops]

@HerNameIsBuffy, I'm obsessed with true crime. Seriously. 

The BDI is difficult. If he did it, he has, and already had significant issues. If not, I'm sure now he has issues. I agree with @VelociRapture about not judging his interviews. From personal experience, I know what it's like to have the media chasing you for interviews. I'm also a nervous smiler. I only had the media problem for a few years, and I was not suspected of anything, so for Burke, it's been unimaginable. I have a lot of sympathy for Burke either way. If he did this, his parents truly failed him. They failed him anyway. That man has been through so much! I can also believe, to a point, that he doesn't remember a lot. I have blocked out large blocks of time when I experienced trauma. The worst one, I have no memory of, while it happened. Again, a different situation, but some people's brains block things out to protect you. At least that's what experts have told me. 

I firmly believe there was no intruder. I've tried to make it fit. The evidence does not back it up. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

3 minutes ago, ADoyle90815 said:

I've seen some of the specials about this case, but not the Dr Phil interview with Burke. It's possible that he might have blocked out all memories of Jon Benet's murder, so he seems to be acting strangely when talking about his sister. No matter who actually killed her, the Boulder PD really fucked up by not fully securing the crime scene, to the point where justice will never be served as there's no way a jury can convict anyone.

Yeah, unfortunately that's the one thing everyone can agree on...how much evidence was totally lost.

 

Omg reasonable smart people discussing true crime...I'm ridiculously happy I'm part of FJ right now.  I love @iweartanktops!

yep, trauma does so much to mess with memories and with his parents the odds they screwed with his memories more I can totally see that.  I've tried to find a way to beli ve the intruder theory becusse I have this deep need for crime to come from outsiders snd not the ones you love...who are supposed to protect you.  But I can't make it work with an outsider here...Id have to ignore too much.