Bill Gothard, Pt. 2: More & More Damning

[formergothardite]

I think he still really thinks he can get it back and return to his glory days. 

[refugee]

22 minutes ago, CaricatureQualities said:

I wonder...if the IBLP were to collapse now...how would BG feel about that? Since he can't have it anymore would he rather no one had it? I mean if it was truly for God and the people and his life's work of being a God whisperer because the followers truly needed it was sincere...wouldn't they still need it in the form of the existing IBLP sans Gothard as it is still largely based on all his teachings? I wonder does he want it to fall under because I really don't think he likes it existing without him. However, like I said I don't think the reality of this is getting through his skull to his brain so he probably still believes he will get back in.

Hah. Interesting question. I think he might have mixed feelings. Grieved at seeing his life’s work blow away, and satisfaction because he could frame it as god’s punishment of those who unrighteously stole the ministry from him and exiled him, the true prophet.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

4 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

@HerNameIsBuffy, you have been gone a long time.   Gothard is done.  Stick a fork in him.  BG is gone from IBLP and reduced to selling stuff, or trying to sell stuff, on his personal web page.   Even his manly prayer groups seemed to go nowhere.

Unfortunately IBLP is not done.  There's still enough money there to keep true believers like Pecan Waller employed for life.

IBLP has been taken over by the rebel BoD members -  Gil Bates and Stephen Paine.  They hired Tim Levendusky as President and added a single rubber stamp, whose name I forget, to the board.

There was a glorious moment last year when BG tried to attend Big Sandy and they called the police to remove him from the campus for trespassing.

Alfred's version here: http://www.discoveringgrace.com/2018/04/29/bill-gothard-went-down-to-texas/

Our thread here: 

 

Thank you - I had no idea that he was completely gone.  More rabbit holes.

[Palimpsest]

6 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I think he still really thinks he can get it back and return to his glory days. 

Not a snowball's chance in Hell. 

On one comparatively recent BG thread some people felt actually sorry for BG, the old monster.

I do not.  

Gil, Steve, and Tim have control of the $$$ now.  One day you are in; the next you are out.  I'm sure Pecan is plotting to oust them in good time.  He is ambitious and will push to the top of the heap.

I won't feel sorry for them either.

[VelociRapture]

I think I strained my eyes rolling them as hard as I just did. That may just be the biggest, most steaming pile of bullshit I’ve had the pleasure of reading. 

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

Not a snowball's chance in Hell. 

On one comparatively recent BG thread some people felt actually sorry for BG, the old monster.

I do not.  

Gil, Steve, and Tim have control of the $$$ now.  One day you are in; the next you are out.  I'm sure Pecan is plotting to oust them in good time.  He is ambitious and will push to the top of the heap.

I won't feel sorry for them either.

Wait. A thread on FJ?! 

[16strong]

I'll be honest. I wouldn't mind if Gothard realized that his mission to retake the reigns of iblp is completely futile, and dropped the religiosity to show his true narcissist colors instead. Considering the fact that all involved are vicious, predatory sharks, Gothard digging the Paine and Bates skeletons out of the closet would make for some interesting viewing. An "if I can't have it, nobody can" moment.

[meee]

Is there a summary somewhere? I have no idea what happened with Gothard, except I think the Bateses are carefully crafting answers that say they don't follow him (even while they still follow his teachings)? Is he the skirts-only-curly-hair-quiverfull-SAHM guy that the Duggars, Bateses, Maxwells follow? Who else here follows him? I knew vaguely from this site that he's "fallen" from his previous glory days, but I have no idea what happened.

[Toothfairy]

22 hours ago, formergothardite said:

 

 Gothard is stuck with no money, no adoring crowds, and there will be no new ministry for him. He is going to spend the rest of his days rage sulking and plotting a revenge he will never be able to carry out. 

Good. This day couldn't come sooner. 

[formergothardite]

4 hours ago, 16strong said:

onsidering the fact that all involved are vicious, predatory sharks, Gothard digging the Paine and Bates skeletons out of the closet would make for some interesting viewing. An "if I can't have it, nobody can" moment.

That would be amazing. There is a whole lot of money tied up in IBLP and I wouldn't be surprised if the Bates and Paines were carefully figuring out ways to make sure they keep all the money when the empire collapses. 

[Botkinetti]

I think the results of an outside audit would make for some interesting reading. 

[formergothardite]

3 hours ago, meee said:

except I think the Bateses are carefully crafting answers that say they don't follow him (even while they still follow his teachings)? Is he the skirts-only-curly-hair-quiverfull-SAHM guy that the Duggars, Bateses, Maxwells follow? Who else here follows him? I knew vaguely from this site that he's "fallen" from his previous glory days, but I have no idea what happened.

Short answer. The Bates and Duggars are members of IBLP's homeschool group. The Maxwells were members briefly forever ago but dropped out. They recently were invited to the yearly conference to give a lecture. The Duggars, while being prominent speakers, weren't actually as deep into the cult as the Bates. The Bates have been spending years carefully working their way to the top. Gothard hand picked Gil Bates and Dr. Paine(Erin Bates father in law) as part of his BoD. They were chosen because Gothard thought he could control them. Boy was he wrong! When RG started Gothard decided to do what he did during the 80's scandal, which is step down from leadership till it all blows over and then get back in charge. Except once he step down the Bates and Paine turned on him, took over and Gothard is no longer allowed on IBLP properties.

They did hire someone to investigate the allegations against Gothard/IBLP but they will not let anyone see the results. I suspect this is because doing so will reveal wide spread systematic abuse in IBLP that they helped cover up. Bates, Paine, with a couple other guys pretty much run the show now. 

Gothard tried to attend the latest IBLP conference but the BoD called the police on him. This is causing some protests, from what I have heard, in the ATI ranks because the BoD has maintained the accusations of abuse are false, yet they won't let Gothard even step foot on a property. They say it is because he didn't follow some of his own teachings, but some people aren't buying that. The real reason is because they know if they let him back around members he will rally the troops and try to take back over the cult. There is no way in hell Bates and Paine are giving up all this money are power. 

So basically it is a bunch of really awful greedy people fighting over a corrupt cult. There are millions of dollars as stake here and I'm fairly sure Gothard isn't going to come out on top. Pecan might be the one who does, but the Bates and Paines seem pretty hard core about doing whatever to keep power. 

[meee]

13 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Short answer. The Bates and Duggars are members of IBLP's homeschool group. The Maxwells were members briefly forever ago but dropped out. They recently were invited to the yearly conference to give a lecture. The Duggars, while being prominent speakers, weren't actually as deep into the cult as the Bates. The Bates have been spending years carefully working their way to the top. Gothard hand picked Gil Bates and Dr. Paine(Erin Bates father in law) as part of his BoD. They were chosen because Gothard thought he could control them. Boy was he wrong! When RG started Gothard decided to do what he did during the 80's scandal, which is step down from leadership till it all blows over and then get back in charge. Except once he step down the Bates and Paine turned on him, took over and Gothard is no longer allowed on IBLP properties.

They did hire someone to investigate the allegations against Gothard/IBLP but they will not let anyone see the results. I suspect this is because doing so will reveal wide spread systematic abuse in IBLP that they helped cover up. Bates, Paine, with a couple other guys pretty much run the show now. 

Gothard tried to attend the latest IBLP conference but the BoD called the police on him. This is causing some protests, from what I have heard, in the ATI ranks because the BoD has maintained the accusations of abuse are false, yet they won't let Gothard even step foot on a property. They say it is because he didn't follow some of his own teachings, but some people aren't buying that. The real reason is because they know if they let him back around members he will rally the troops and try to take back over the cult. There is no way in hell Bates and Paine are giving up all this money are power. 

So basically it is a bunch of really awful greedy people fighting over a corrupt cult. There are millions of dollars as stake here and I'm fairly sure Gothard isn't going to come out on top. Pecan might be the one who does, but the Bates and Paines seem pretty hard core about doing whatever to keep power. 

Thanks! Who else is involved in this? Not the Andersons I presume? Is it what the Shupes and Muncks used to be? (Sorry, I don't know one conservative Christian group from another.)

[ViolaSebastian]

I’m enjoying that Alfred is trying to make other people feel badly for Gothard because he never had a family. He *chose* not to have a family. You can’t tell me that some crunchy barefoot maiden wouldn’t have loved to be Mrs. Gothard. But he made a conscious choice to focus on his career and because he is a man and all that biologically entails, he could have changed his mind for 30+ years. He knew exactly what he was doing and the consequences for that. I’m not going to feel badly about a deliberate choice that he made, that’s for damn sure. Sit in your loneliness and dwell on it, for all I care. 

[formergothardite]

He didn't want marriage because a wife and a ton of kids would have cramped his style. His wife probably would have chosen to travel with him instead of him getting to hand pick pretty teen girls to be his companions. 

It shows a great deal about his ministry that virtually none of the thousands of ATI students have chosen to come spend time with him or support him. He is alone at the end of his life because of the choices he made.

[Palimpsest]

7 hours ago, meee said:

Is there a summary somewhere? I have no idea what happened with Gothard, <snip for space>  Who else here follows him? I knew vaguely from this site that he's "fallen" from his previous glory days, but I have no idea what happened.

You have to ask this on Free Jinger? We must be slipping.   

@formergothardite gave an excellent summary but we have covered the Fall of Gothard over many threads on QoS and it has been mentioned often in the Duggar and Bates subforums.  Especially on the Bates threads because of Gil's role in the ousting of Gothard.

The allegations against Bill Gothard, IBLP, and the BoD are horrendous.  Please take a look at the stories on http://www.recoveringgrace.org/ when you have a few free hours.  I recommend against trying to read the actual lawsuit unless you have a very strong stomach.

@VelociRapture, I'm afraid so.  Perhaps it was in the thread I linked above.  A lot of people don't bother with the background, and even on FJ a few people saw BG  as a doddering old man of 83 whose "life work" was wrongly torn from him.  They didn't understand that IBLP was incorporated way back in the 60s, by Bill himself, and that he is a manipulating monster. 

BG might be 83 and appear a bit doddering, but he's more crazy like a fox than demented.  And he is certainly not a pathetic victim.  IMO only, of course, but an opinion based on his recent behavior.  He  is still going after his victims for filing the lawsuit.

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

It shows a great deal about his ministry that virtually none of the thousands of ATI students have chosen to come spend time with him or support him. He is alone at the end of his life because of the choices he made.

Doesn't BG. have a sister still living who had children?  Why can't they look after him?  Although I agree that Alfred really should adopt him.

I just found an article I hadn't seen before.  It is written by a former IBLP and ATI, possibly Mennonite, home churchy-type father.  It goes over the sexual abuse evidence and has a detailed history of the cult, from a very "Christian" POV.  They were mislead, folks, and are now wiping Bill Gothard from their lives.

Warning:  It is also really long!

http://www.biblicalresearchreports.com/bill-gothard-biggest-conservative-fraud-modern-times/

Quote

Bill Gothard is perhaps the biggest false teacher, sexual predator, hypocrite, and fraud in modern conservative circles. His “ministry” empire in recent years was worth somewhere around $80 million dollars.

[CaricatureQualities]

Thanks for sharing that report @Palimpsest, it is very comprehensive. Here are a few quotes that I think outline how the system he created is a system of sexual predation.

 

Quote

Gothard, like many other sexual predators, gravitated to a ministry/job that gave him access to those whom he could sexually prey on. The homeschooling ministry of ATI provided a constant stream of young, pretty, 14—16 year old female “playthings”.

 

Quote

The emphasis on skirts and dresses for ATI families was developed somewhere around 1980 and appears to have been part of the reimaging of Gothard’s ministry after the sex scandal broke about his brother. In the 1970’s, IBLP staff women wore pants. Putting more strict “modesty” and conservative dress requirements on women is a typical move by sexual predators. It puts the responsibility on the women instead of the men to prevent sexual immorality and at the same time puts the women and girls more under the control of the sexual predator. The conservative modesty doctrine often results in a perverted view of right and wrong by conservative sexual predators. They blame the women and in doing so, they view themselves as the victim and the girls or women as the perpetrators. As a result, they often do not own the responsibility for the sexual abuse that they commit. When a leader puts a strong emphasis on modesty, it is a red flag.

Quote

Bill Gothard covered up his brother Steve’s sexual relations with seven secretaries and aided Steve in sexually assaulting them by banishing Steve for his immorality to the Northwoods property to work on the Character Sketches books, and then sending secretaries to help him in his “work”. These women were then sexually abused by Steve. Now I understand why the content of the Character Sketches books never really appealed to me. They were written in total hypocrisy by persons who lacked character and were merely writing academically to produce a product to make a lot of money off of it. 

 

Quote

To try to salvage IBLP and ATI and purge out the false teachings is not possible. It is founded upon false teachings, concepts, applications, sexual immorality and lies.

 

[CaricatureQualities]

Also, here is a quote that I think perfectly sums up how the ATI curriculum really serves as a tool to create frustration and shame and isolation among families and within families. 

Quote

When he first started ATI, Bill Gothard said that the ATI curriculum was far superior to other education materials. He told us that with the content of the Wisdom Booklets and because of its unique approach of integrating education around the Sermon on the Mount, it would in 12 years not only give a child a high school equivalent training, but would also give the equivalent of four years of college, pre-law, and pre-med. The wisdom booklets in reality could not achieve even close to that. They were mere booklets that had to be supplemented with other textbooks. Many mothers felt frustrated in knowing how to implement the curriculum to achieve the results that Gothard promised. Because they thought Bill Gothard was such a Godly and honest man, they felt that their own inability was the reason why their children were not succeeding like others in ATI appeared to be succeeding.

 

The Wisdom booklets are really Ignorance booklets as they function to keep followers in the dark and feeling alone and ashamed of their failure to turn a turd into the promised brick of gold. This sort of thing helps foster an environment of shame and unworthiness in followers that also keeps them from coming together and sharing their individual frustration with each other....nobody wants to say the emperor has no clothes.

[Threff]

8 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Warning:  It is also really long!

http://www.biblicalresearchreports.com/bill-gothard-biggest-conservative-fraud-modern-times/

Whoever the hell is writing that site is really weird. I have fallen down a rabbit hole. Fascinating. He/she seems really strangely steamed up about divorce. Here’s an excerpt:

‘How children do not get a true father when the divorced mother remarries.

One of the reasons used to justify remarriage after divorce is because the children need a father. However remarriage after divorce is different than remarriage after the death of a spouse. After divorce, the former lover who fathered the children is still living and visits his children. In that second marriage, the children are to the new husband as illegitimate children by another lover. There is no way that he can love those children as he should, or as he would his own children. He therefore does not discipline the children as sons and daughters and the children end up without proper love, discipline, and training. The children do not get a true father. This principle is found in several passages of Scripture and explains one reason why God hates divorce: God desires Godly children.”

What?

[Georgiana]

5 minutes ago, Threff said:

Whoever the hell is writing that site is really weird. I have fallen down a rabbit hole. Fascinating. He/she seems really strangely steamed up about divorce. Here’s an excerpt:

‘How children do not get a true father when the divorced mother remarries.

One of the reasons used to justify remarriage after divorce is because the children need a father. However remarriage after divorce is different than remarriage after the death of a spouse. After divorce, the former lover who fathered the children is still living and visits his children. In that second marriage, the children are to the new husband as illegitimate children by another lover. There is no way that he can love those children as he should, or as he would his own children. He therefore does not discipline the children as sons and daughters and the children end up without proper love, discipline, and training. The children do not get a true father. This principle is found in several passages of Scripture and explains one reason why God hates divorce: God desires Godly children.”

What?

I think this author has forgotten that God actually decided once to father His own child, thought it best to assign the child an Earthly step-father to raise the child as his own, and then was literally SUPER pleased with how His step-father raised Son turned out.  Did this person forget that Jesus was raised by Joseph? But that during that time, Jesus still clearly had SOME connection with His true heavenly Father and knew who He was because this happens:

Quote

41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover.

42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.

43 And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.

44 But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance.

45 And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.

46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.

47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.

48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.

51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.

52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

 And I mean, obviously Joseph knew the whole deal.  That's earlier. 

And then God's response to reconnecting with Jesus officially for the first time as an adult (again, after Jesus had been raised by another man) went like this:

Quote

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

But yeah, no, God TOTALLY hates it when kids fathered by one entity get raised by another.  As the Gospels show us, those kids turn out to have real behavioral problems (like making wild claims about their ability to cure disease or raise the dead), issues with authority (persistent disrespect towards religious and civil superiors), and are very likely to end up on the wrong side of criminal proceedings.  

[RosyDaisy]

This guy may denounce Gothard, but he comes across as equally disturbing. What he says about step-fathers is absolute bullshit.

[CaricatureQualities]

What a coincidence, I just watched this video about Pastor(?) Jesse Lee Peterson advising a man to leave his gf of 5 years and not marry her because she had a child from rape...because the child (who called the caller dad for 5 years) would always be longing for their real biological father ( the rapist) and should be raised by him. 

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

14 hours ago, Botkinetti said:

I think the results of an outside audit would make for some interesting reading. 

Yes I would do a forensic audit for free! Numbers are my drug of choice!  

[Palimpsest]

14 hours ago, Threff said:

Whoever the hell is writing that site is really weird. I have fallen down a rabbit hole. Fascinating. He/she seems really strangely steamed up about divorce.

Yes, that site is weird.  I should have added a better warning label.  I think this guy is a good example of a subset of extreme Fundies attracted to Gothard's teachings because they were so obnoxious and patriarchal.  Although he is now calling out Gothard as a "false teacher" and sexual predator, he still says (my bolding):

Quote

Many of Gothard’s false teachings have an element of truth in them. That is why so many of us were deceived by him. There is a certain amount of truth from Scripture, but then elements in the teaching are given their own definition or interpretation by Gothard which is not in scripture. This is also true of many false denominational and theological doctrines in churches today.

Yeah, yeah.  If you look at his own beliefs on that site - the writer is still as Fundie as stink.

That is why when some people casually say that so-and-so (Duggar or Bates) is no longer Gothardite, no longer skirts-only and, therefore, must no longer be Fundie just "Conservative Christian" I tend to scream internally.   Loudly.

Because you need to look at what kind of "Conservative Christian."  All Gothardites are Fundie but not all Fundies are Gothardite.  And some other Fundies are even worse than Gothardites.

That site is extreme Fundie, even as it calls out Gothard and Doug, the Tool, Phillips.

Edited January 15, 2019 by Palimpsest

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

They’ve won a Lawsuit. Does anyone know any more about this?

[HereticHick]

On 1/14/2019 at 8:00 AM, formergothardite said:

 

So basically it is a bunch of really awful greedy people fighting over a corrupt cult. There are millions of dollars at stake here and I'm fairly sure Gothard isn't going to come out on top. 

But how much debt is also at stake? Did they ever manage to sell the Oak Brook Illinois campus?