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The Hodnett Family Converting Scotland


Palimpsest

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On 8/30/2016 at 11:57 AM, Peas n carrots said:

 


Giving the great Big Yin credit on this one;

The match attendees will wonder why those religious fanatics don't have a football team!

 

"Did Jesus play for Tottenham Hotspur, Daddy?"

"And you know, in a funny way he did."

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On 8/30/2016 at 11:09 AM, seraaa said:

but the beef between the subsequent split branches in Scottish Protestantism are like the Judean People's Front sketch from Monty Python.

Thank you for this!  That skit segued right into What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?  Brilliant fun as usual. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm guessing the Hodnetts won't be coming to Scotland after all.  Per their last prayer letter: (bolding mine)

Quote

We have watched God supply each and every need and quite a few wants along the way. We KNOW, now more than ever, that God has indeed called us to Scotland. We have watched as God has sent in partners in the ministry one by one for the Glory of God. We have been praying that God would provide the $16,000.00 needed for our Visas and also another $2,500.00 for our Shipping container, as well as $5,000.00 for set up expenses once we arrive in Scotland. God is continually proving Himself faithful! We currently need $5,000.00 for our Visas (this money must be in hand by September 25, 2016 in order for us to leave for Scotland as planned.). We also Praise God for supplying half of the anticipated cost of our Shipping Container. We still need another $1,250.00 by September 9, in order for our container to ship as planned. We also are in Need of $5,000.00 for our set-up expenses.

<snip>

We have submitted our Application for Sponsorship and are currently awaiting a reply. Once we have been approved for Sponsorship, we will apply for our Visas in Washington, D.C. on September 28. Trusting that all goes as planned, we will leave for Scotland out of Atlanta, GA at 9 am EST on October 13 and arrive in Glasgow, Scotland at 8 am local time on October 14.

When this was sent out, they said they needed 4 more churches to support them, which is still what the front page of their site says.

I'm a bit confused by their prose (Vacationaries with bad writing skills?  Surprise!) but the total they were grifting praying for was $23,5000 for the visas, shipping containers and set-up costs, and they were lacking $11,250 - so they're asking around $3k per church?  But then how will they support themselves? 

And what kind of visa are they coming over with? I was looking at the the UK.gov visa site, and wondering if he's going for a Minister of religion visa - but one of them would need an actual job, and from the eligibility page, they'd need a job, stating how much they'll be paid - this must be the Sponsorship they're looking for - and for the dependants' visas (guessing wife + 2 kids):

Quote

 

You must show that your dependants can be supported while they’re in the UK.

Each dependant must have £630 available to them whether they apply with you or separately. This is in addition to the £945 you must have to support yourself.

You must have proof you have the money, and that it’s been in your bank account or your dependant’s bank account for at least 90 days before you or they apply.

<snip>

You won’t need evidence of your savings if you have a letter from your fully approved (‘A-rated’) sponsor saying they’ll provide one month’s funding of at least £630 for each of your dependants.

Which makes me wonder - what kind of Scottish church is likely to pony up around a grand and a half for Mrs Hodnett & kids, especially when their video shows that they don't really know much about Scotland at all?  Their website makes it clear they're "Only Southern Baptists are real Christians" types, so I wonder how this conversation goes?  I guess we'll know by 16th October, as they will be here, or not...

(ETA they're planning to send off their container before they get the sponsorship and visas confirmed?  I guess they'r pretty sure God is on their side..)

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I'm pretty sure these people are not Southern Baptists. If they were the IMB would be taking care of their visas and such. SBC missionaries will go and talk to churches, but not beg for love offerings and sponsorships. 

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I'm guessing the Hodnetts won't be coming to Scotland after all.  Per their last prayer letter: (bolding mine)

We have watched God supply each and every need and quite a few wants along the way. We KNOW, now more than ever, that God has indeed called us to Scotland. We have watched as God has sent in partners in the ministry one by one for the Glory of God. We have been praying that God would provide the $16,000.00 needed for our Visas and also another $2,500.00 for our Shipping container, as well as $5,000.00 for set up expenses once we arrive in Scotland. God is continually proving Himself faithful! We currently need $5,000.00 for our Visas (this money must be in hand by September 25, 2016 in order for us to leave for Scotland as planned.). We also Praise God for supplying half of the anticipated cost of our Shipping Container. We still need another $1,250.00 by September 9, in order for our container to ship as planned. We also are in Need of $5,000.00 for our set-up expenses.



We have submitted our Application for Sponsorship and are currently awaiting a reply. Once we have been approved for Sponsorship, we will apply for our Visas in Washington, D.C. on September 28. Trusting that all goes as planned, we will leave for Scotland out of Atlanta, GA at 9 am EST on October 13 and arrive in Glasgow, Scotland at 8 am local time on October 14.

When this was sent out, they said they needed 4 more churches to support them, which is still what the front page of their site says.

I'm a bit confused by their prose (Vacationaries with bad writing skills?  Surprise!) but the total they were grifting praying for was $23,5000 for the visas, shipping containers and set-up costs, and they were lacking $11,250 - so they're asking around $3k per church?  But then how will they support themselves? 

And what kind of visa are they coming over with? I was looking at the the UK.gov visa site, and wondering if he's going for a Minister of religion visa - but one of them would need an actual job, and from the eligibility page, they'd need a job, stating how much they'll be paid - this must be the Sponsorship they're looking for - and for the dependants' visas (guessing wife + 2 kids):

 

You must show that your dependants can be supported while they’re in the UK.

Each dependant must have £630 available to them whether they apply with you or separately. This is in addition to the £945 you must have to support yourself.

You must have proof you have the money, and that it’s been in your bank account or your dependant’s bank account for at least 90 days before you or they apply.



You won’t need evidence of your savings if you have a letter from your fully approved (‘A-rated’) sponsor saying they’ll provide one month’s funding of at least £630 for each of your dependants.

Which makes me wonder - what kind of Scottish church is likely to pony up around a grand and a half for Mrs Hodnett & kids, especially when their video shows that they don't really know much about Scotland at all?  Their website makes it clear they're "Only Southern Baptists are real Christians" types, so I wonder how this conversation goes?  I guess we'll know by 16th October, as they will be here, or not...

(ETA they're planning to send off their container before they get the sponsorship and visas confirmed?  I guess they'r pretty sure God is on their side..)



Why do they need a shipping container? Rental properties in Scotland are always furnished, so if they ship their own furniture they'll just end up paying to store it (I mean, they're not planning on buying, are they?). Although still expensive, it is possible to get things shipped without paying for an entire container, although I'm still not convinced they need to ship anything. The only reason Mr Alba and I will be shipping when we move back home is because he has a nice desktop that can't go in the hold and I have an embarrassingly large book collection. Otherwise we'd pare down to what we could fit in our checked baggage and be done.
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12 hours ago, EmiGirl said:

I'm pretty sure these people are not Southern Baptists. If they were the IMB would be taking care of their visas and such. SBC missionaries will go and talk to churches, but not beg for love offerings and sponsorships. 

From their website:

Quote

We are currently on deputation, raising support to go to Scotland to plant Independent Baptist Churches.

Are Independent Baptist Churches different to Southern Baptists?  Apologies, I get confused.

A separate thing....

Also (because vacationaries/griftssionaries fascinate me) they don't seem to have any credentials on their site.  I have a charity & public sector background, so with my project management head on, I'd assume that a missionary project goes like this:

  1. Get some experience of missionary work in similar communities within the USA to the one I want to go to abroad, working under someone else
  2. Plant my own church in a USA community, and work with it until it's self-sufficient
  3. While doing steps 1 and 2, do a ton of research about the place I want to go to - including becoming fluent in the language
  4. Find a church in the country I'm interested in, and work on a project plan with them for what I'd do if I got there - inc budgeting
  5. Start fund-raising, using examples of my success
  6. Work with other people to support them to start church-planting/missionary-ing until my fund-raising was done

But it feels like a lot of the people we talk about (the miss-cation types) start on 5 and don't do anything else. 

I dunno, it's probably my work background, but a website asking for cash, without any project plan, always raises my hackles...

 

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That Aquila article was a great read. It drew out something from this thread for me: *obviously*, a missionary's main job and focus is converting people. It seems weird to me to snark on people for being bad missionaries because "all they do is try to convert people". That's their job! But equally, there's a huge difference between someone genuinely caring for people, trying to understand and help them, and the kind of "mission" work the Hodnetts seem to have in mind. The centre of mission work should be souls saved and lives changed for the better, not importing a foreign business model in order to criticise what's already been happening and to browbeat people into becoming the "right" sort of Christians.

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1 hour ago, Lurky said:

Are Independent Baptist Churches different to Southern Baptists?  Apologies, I get confused.

Yes.  Very different. The Southern Baptist Convention is a denomination with centralized oversight and established doctrine.    The Hodnetts are Independent Fundamental Baptists.  In their minds the only true Baptists.  Basically, each church is independent, anyone can hang out a shingle and call themselves a "pastor," and any oversight is anathema.  The clues are in the principles section of their site: 

 http://www.reachingscotland.com/principles

Quote

 

"The Independence and Autonomy of the Local Church:

I believe in the independence and autonomy of the local church; that each New Testament Church is free to govern itself without ecclesiastical interference, and should cooperate with other New Testament churches as the Holy Spirit leads; that it is  responsible to follow the pattern of the New Testament Church and is directly accountable to God ( Matt. 18:17; Acts 7:1-5; 13:1-3; 15:22,23)."

 

In practice it means that although they have "Sending Churches" giving them credibility if a missionary (church planter) goes rogue there is no control over them - except to withdraw funding.  In the time I've been watching the IFB missionaries only one family has been withdrawn.  The Lockwoods were pulled out of Mexico, we think for sexual misconduct, but no-one is telling.

 

2 hours ago, Lurky said:

Also (because vacationaries/griftssionaries fascinate me) they don't seem to have any credentials on their site.  I have a charity & public sector background, so with my project management head on, I'd assume that a missionary project goes like this:

  1. Get some experience of missionary work in similar communities within the USA to the one I want to go to abroad, working under someone else
  2. Plant my own church in a USA community, and work with it until it's self-sufficient
  3. While doing steps 1 and 2, do a ton of research about the place I want to go to - including becoming fluent in the language
  4. Find a church in the country I'm interested in, and work on a project plan with them for what I'd do if I got there - inc budgeting
  5. Start fund-raising, using examples of my success
  6. Work with other people to support them to start church-planting/missionary-ing until my fund-raising was done

But it feels like a lot of the people we talk about (the miss-cation types) start on 5 and don't do anything else. 

I dunno, it's probably my work background, but a website asking for cash, without any project plan, always raises my hackles...

Yes, that is pretty much right. And people give them money.  Mind boggling, isn't it?

We do tend to talk more about the nuttiest of the IFB fake missionaries here.  That reminds me.  I haven't checked in on Shrader or the Bergeys recently.

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@Palimpsest That is fascinating thank you!

So my next question - if the IFB are "all churches should be independent" then how does that work in needing a Sponsor church who'll be employing one of them, and paying them a wage? 

In this IFB directory, there are 2 churches, 1 in Glasgow & 1 in Inverurie:

http://www.biblebaptistglasgow.org.uk/

http://www.inveruriebaptistchurch.org.uk/

but neither seem like they're rich enough to pay the Hodnetts -  although the Inverurie church says this...

Quote

IBC supports 8 missionaries whose calling is to preach the gospel in all the world to every creature.  Some of which are called to establishing Bible believing Baptist Churches. Some of our missionaries are ministries to reach Jews for Christ and some challenging attacks upon the Church, Christians, and Christian principles. 

...the missionaries they support are to elsewhere, not within Scotland.

It's all so interesting!  Unless the Hodnetts are planning to come in on a Tourist visa, and hope no one notices that they're working, Anderson/Shrader style?

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4 hours ago, Lurky said:

But it feels like a lot of the people we talk about (the miss-cation types) start on 5 and don't do anything else. 

I dunno, it's probably my work background, but a website asking for cash, without any project plan, always raises my hackles...

@Lurky, I was thinking just before I read your post that being able to have the earning power and to save sufficiently to support one's own mission would be a better predictor of future success than just....begging. 

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3 hours ago, BobTheWalrus said:

criticise what's already been happening and to browbeat people into becoming the "right" sort of Christians.

But that is "saving souls" for the fundies and particularly the IFB and similar ones. 

Oddly I have come to an understanding with the fundies on my street and just recently one protected me from a "soul saver" by telling her this Catholic/Orthodox woman was still a "real Christian."

 

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Have they mentioned where they will be living? 

The Glasgow church meets in a community hall.  I can't image any basement facilities being available for the family. The Shraders used to live in church basements when they were grifting for Zambia.

A quick Google search in the post code area for rental properties:

Terraced house, 2 bedrooms @£650.00 pcm.

Flat,                  3 bedrooms @£550.00 pcm

Detached house 3 bedrooms @£995.00 pcm

Semi detached    4 bedrooms £825.00 pcm 

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4 hours ago, Lurky said:

@Palimpsest That is fascinating thank you!

So my next question - if the IFB are "all churches should be independent" then how does that work in needing a Sponsor church who'll be employing one of them, and paying them a wage

No, you have to understand the lunacy - they are not "employed" by the Sending Church.  Perish the thought.  The pastor of the Sending Church endorses them of being Godly and worthy and commits to provide some sort of spiritual guidance.  They can idnore that if they want or find another Sending Church (see Shrader.)  Each mission sets up its own account (Mission to Glasgow, Team Zambia etc.).  Then they look for other churches or individuals to sponsor them.  Donations are run through a clearing house to get non-profit status.  The individual missionary gets to do whatever they want with the cash - there is no oversight whatsoever.  The only control is for donors to stop giving them money.

Quote

 

In this IFB directory, there are 2 churches, 1 in Glasgow & 1 in Inverurie:

http://www.biblebaptistglasgow.org.uk/http://www.inveruriebaptistchurch.org.uk/

 

I doubt that IFB Directory is complete.  It's just churches that ask to be included.  That said, Hodnett may pal around with them a bit if he thinks that they are "true" Christians.  

Quote

 

but neither seem like they're rich enough to pay the Hodnetts -  although the Inverurie church says this...

...the missionaries they support are to elsewhere, not within Scotland.

 

Now that's funny!  the Inverurie church is sponsoring 2 missions to Ireland - and one to convert Metro Boston!

Quote

It's all so interesting!  Unless the Hodnetts are planning to come in on a Tourist visa, and hope no one notices that they're working, Anderson/Shrader style?

A lot of these missionaries go in on tourist visas or blatantly misrepresent what they are doing.  This is especially true in "closed" countries - AKA countries that don't allow missionaries.  Lies are apparently fine if you are doing God's Work.

I doubt whether Hodnett will bother to get a work permit or tell immigration how long he intends to stay.  It is not as though he will be taking a job away from a Scottish person, after all.  He'll just overstay his tourist visa or pop back and forth to the US a few times to get it renewed.

Probably he won't be noticed unless he gets into trouble for preaching hate or tries to press charges if someone gives him a knuckle sandwich.  Then immigration will catch up with him.

Edit:  Don't assume Hodnett has any connections to IFB churches in Glasgow.  He is going there to church plant because no-one knows the true way to Christ in Scotland.  It is a desperate situation, you know./sarcasm.

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3 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Don't assume Hodnett has any connections to IFB churches in Glasgow.  He is going there to church plant because no-one knows the true way to Christ in Scotland.  It is a desperate situation, you know./sarcasm.

True indeed - BUT the Missionary visa needs a Sponsor church, who are meant to be employing them, per the visa regs - and their prayer letter talked about applying for Sponsorship...

3 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Now that's funny!  the Inverurie church is sponsoring 2 missions to Ireland - and one to convert Metro Boston!

I did laugh out loud at that - especially at the Bostonian mission.  I'd have thought it would be cheaper, and therefore there'd be more money for Good Works if eg a UK missionary did Scotland, and the USA ones did Boston, but what do I know? I'd start with a business plan!

4 hours ago, Howl said:

@Lurky, I was thinking just before I read your post that being able to have the earning power and to save sufficiently to support one's own mission would be a better predictor of future success than just....begging. 

And there's this, too - clearly, I'm not cut out for my ideal missionary plan to the art galleries and hot springs around the world...

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1 hour ago, Lurky said:

True indeed - BUT the Missionary visa needs a Sponsor church, who are meant to be employing them, per the visa regs - and their prayer letter talked about applying for Sponsorship...

The Hodnetts *may* be able to convince a church in Scotland to invite and sponsor them.   Note they are still trying so they didn't do their homework about Visas before they started fundraising -typical.  I suppose they could also channel their US funding through that church and perhaps not risk being investigated for money laundering.  That may be easier than I think - I'm prejudiced because I've had to jump through a few hoops lately trying to get a UK inheritance into my US bank account and also send a fairly decent amount of cash to my niece in England for a wedding present.  

I think they are going to find it difficult to get a Scottish sponsor - especially if they didn't even go on an IFB "survey trip" to con a church into rubber-stamping their visa application in advance.  I can't find any references to survey trips in their fund raising stuff.  

Any minute now the Hodnetts will either wail about Satan blocking their plans or they will  travel on tourist visas and lie through their teeth to immigration and their funders.  Or both!

1 hour ago, Lurky said:

And there's this, too - clearly, I'm not cut out for my ideal missionary plan to the art galleries and hot springs around the world...

We are sadly lacking in initiative on FJ.  We too could be missionaries, except we like business plans and perhaps we possess those awkward things - brains and consciences!

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18 hours ago, Coconut Flan said:

But that is "saving souls" for the fundies and particularly the IFB and similar ones. 

Oddly I have come to an understanding with the fundies on my street and just recently one protected me from a "soul saver" by telling her this Catholic/Orthodox woman was still a "real Christian."

 

Yeah, that's what I find weird and arrogant about them!

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17 hours ago, Lurky said:

And there's this, too - clearly, I'm not cut out for my ideal missionary plan to the art galleries and hot springs around the world...

ERMAGERD!  This is a simply brilliant idea!  What better place to discuss washing soaking away sin than at a hot springs?  There are even lots of places in the U.S. to wash soak away sin and even visit an art museum.  For example, Hot Springs, Arkansas is a bit over 3 hours away from Crystal Bridges Museum of American Art in Bentonville, AR.  You're welcome. 

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@Howl Of course, some would look askance at me for not wearing Business Casual in the hot springs, like the BuckHales, but I reckon it would help me connect to more people - and imagine how well I could talk about the majesty of creation, in the outdoor hot springs in Iceland, Japan, etc etc?  I can't believe the IFBs haven't already thought about this one!

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...and you are instantly ready for full immersion baptism.  Winny win win as far as I can tell.  You can get ready for your deputation by visiting all U.S. hot springs.  

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41 minutes ago, Howl said:

...and you are instantly ready for full immersion baptism.  Winny win win as far as I can tell.  You can get ready for your deputation by visiting all U.S. hot springs.  

As I'm in the UK, that means the grifting must begin right now! I guess I could go to the baths at Bath, as practice, but starting in hot springs close to home, would be failing Grifting 101 :-D 

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Well, giddy-up, @Lurky!  There are also hot springs (some commercial, some out in the woods) in the Santa Fe, New Mexico area, as well as tons of art museums and galleries in Santa Fe itself.  I'm sure you can find video of full immersion baptisms on youtube, so you can practice and be ready for your Soak Away the Sin hot springs 'n art soul winning tour here in the U.S.  

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3 hours ago, Gobsmacked said:

Art, Soul and Bubbles?

Art, Soul and steamy fellowship?

All under the approved banner of heaven, of course!  And let's not forget the prerequisite essential oils---

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Do these people not do research on legal requirements to enter countries first. My local priest tried to house a group of kids from Thailand, a boy from my home town had taught them and sadly was murdered after returning home, They were told that their was not enough facilities to meet legal requirements for guests in the end Celtic Football Club let them stay in Celtic Park. Small Churches may not be able to put this family up and good luck finding a house large enough they will need an RV.

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