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The Botkinettes Tell Us How...


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6 hours ago, GenerationCedarchip said:

Probably depends on the guy. I'm sure CnD would have some insight.  In Calvinist circles, there are actually plenty of educated people and I've encountered more than a few who have admired the Botkins from afar.  Usually from afar, though, because Daddy Botkin intimidates everyone I've ever known who has dealt with him directly. 

Also to keep in mind: For the guys near the top of the pecking order in circles where I came from, a wife who is both fashionable-looking and traditionally devout/godly is seen as an asset because some of these guys are going after careers in government/politics, business, finance, etc... Not every fundie male is looking for Michelle Duggar. There's a lot more variety in fundiedom than I think a lot of folks who've never been on the inside would realize.

So true. Cf. Steven Hammer, an educated young military man with huge career ambitions (no doubt in politics, eventually), who scoured the Internet for the perfect Christian SAHD to make his wife.

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Oh, man, that's RIGHT. Stephen shopping the Internet and winding up with Meredith. Who was seriously a very smart girl who worked very hard. I hope she's happy.

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14 hours ago, GenerationCedarchip said:

Probably depends on the guy. I'm sure CnD would have some insight.  In Calvinist circles, there are actually plenty of educated people and I've encountered more than a few who have admired the Botkins from afar.  Usually from afar, though, because Daddy Botkin intimidates everyone I've ever known who has dealt with him directly. 

Also to keep in mind: For the guys near the top of the pecking order in circles where I came from, a wife who is both fashionable-looking and traditionally devout/godly is seen as an asset because some of these guys are going after careers in government/politics, business, finance, etc... Not every fundie male is looking for Michelle Duggar. There's a lot more variety in fundiedom than I think a lot of folks who've never been on the inside would realize.

Thank you for the clarification. And as some previous poster already said, Geoff is probably the reason why many fundie man are terrified to pursue a courtship with one of these girls.

I often think about how gorgeous lifes these to ladies could have if they were putting their minds in the secular world and would have been allowed to pursue a college degree.

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Well, I went to their Ministry site for the first time, and, well.

I like that Geoff Botkin opened up his article on the EU Referendum with this:

Quote

Once upon a time, the English sang an anthem about freedom.  In the chorus they vowed "Britons never, never, never will be slaves."  

'Rule Britannia', a song glorifying  British Naval victories and whose primary connotation now is Empire, is maybe not the best example to illustrate your point about the sovereignty and freedom of people and nations. It's jaunty chauvinism.

(Also, Brexit sucks).

This was the only amusing thing on that site.

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Well, I went to their Ministry site for the first time, and, well.

I like that Geoff Botkin opened up his article on the EU Referendum with this:

Once upon a time, the English sang an anthem about freedom.  In the chorus they vowed "Britons never, never, never will be slaves."  

'Rule Britannia', a song glorifying  British Naval victories and whose primary connotation now is Empire, is maybe not the best example to illustrate your point about the sovereignty and freedom of people and nations. It's jaunty chauvinism.

(Also, Brexit sucks).

This was the only amusing thing on that site.



Ooh, has he congratulated us on our "Independence Day" yet?
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Yeah, you'd think one or the other would be a trophy wife for the pastor of a mega church or similar.  Instead, they are stuck being trophy daughters to Geoff Botkin.  Uck. The point I'd like to make is that they seem to have no choice, or have decided to have no choice in the matter.  All options (marriage, staying single, partnership, sisters moving out together and getting an apartment!, and including staying at home) should be options, and not staying at home as emotional bondage/filial obligation.  

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Yeah, you'd think one or the other would be a trophy wife for the pastor of a mega church or similar.  Instead, they are stuck being trophy daughters to Geoff Botkin.  Uck. The point I'd like to make is that they seem to have no choice, or have decided to have no choice in the matter.  All options (marriage, staying single, partnership, sisters moving out together and getting an apartment!, and including staying at home) should be options, and not staying at home as emotional bondage/filial obligation.  

Everything about their upbringing would lead them to believe that this is the only valid and holy choice, probably. They probably could do differently - it's not material factors that are necessarily holding them back - but they probably think every other option is Bad.

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2 hours ago, seraaa said:

Everything about their upbringing would lead them to believe that this is the only valid and holy choice, probably. They probably could do differently - it's not material factors that are necessarily holding them back - but they probably think every other option is Bad.

So true. Some former fundie friends of mine were completely financially independent of their families for many years before breaking away. Social reasons definitely play a part in why some people stay involved. When your whole family vehemently believes the same things, and all your friends you made through religious groups/events also believe those things, it's not surprising people feel there are no other options, period. You also risk losing your entire support network if you leave. 

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Every Botkin is so conceited and full of self glorification, I don't know how any man would even want to get close to them. Such traits are not attractive in anyone, but particularly not in young women with no experience in life who are surrounded by a family of pretension. It's not self confidence in the slightest; it's flat out arrogance.

No self respecting man wants to deal with that, no matter how otherwise appealing as fundie wives a Botkin chick may be.

Reading their sites is painful. They are absurdly vain and pompous on every single thing they write about, say they do, and how they live. Even their descriptions of themselves are nothing but inflation.

I am totally out of adjectives to describe them. They are, in their minds, superior human beings and that makes them that much more disdainful, ugly and despicable.

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3 hours ago, fundiefan said:

Every Botkin is so conceited and full of self glorification, I don't know how any man would even want to get close to them. Such traits are not attractive in anyone, but particularly not in young women with no experience in life who are surrounded by a family of pretension. It's not self confidence in the slightest; it's flat out arrogance.

That's not how they come across in person. Some of them are very nice to be around.

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On 8/30/2016 at 2:54 PM, GenerationCedarchip said:

Probably depends on the guy. I'm sure CnD would have some insight.  In Calvinist circles, there are actually plenty of educated people and I've encountered more than a few who have admired the Botkins from afar.  Usually from afar, though, because Daddy Botkin intimidates everyone I've ever known who has dealt with him directly. 

Also to keep in mind: For the guys near the top of the pecking order in circles where I came from, a wife who is both fashionable-looking and traditionally devout/godly is seen as an asset because some of these guys are going after careers in government/politics, business, finance, etc... Not every fundie male is looking for Michelle Duggar. There's a lot more variety in fundiedom than I think a lot of folks who've never been on the inside would realize.

I think a lot of fundies are too flat-out stuck up in their own particular set of beliefs to get along with other fundies. They can fellowship together, but if they can't agree on all 100 points on their list, or at least the 100 non-negotiable points of the list of 250, then as sad as it is, it just won't work out. There were probably a few people at BCA who could have married a Botkin girl, and maybe should have and I think it was more than their father that was in the way.

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14 hours ago, fundiefan said:

I am totally out of adjectives to describe them. They are, in their minds, superior human beings and that makes them that much more disdainful, ugly and despicable.

IME arrogance is an almost unavoidable part of being fundie. I think many of them don't even realize how arrogant they appear to people in mainstream society. 

Remember, they are god's chosen people following the one true religion. They are part of an elite group who are guaranteed to go to heaven.  They have all the answers.  

What's so arrogant about that? ;) 

 

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, CloakNDagger said:

I think a lot of fundies are too flat-out stuck up in their own particular set of beliefs to get along with other fundies. They can fellowship together, but if they can't agree on all 100 points on their list, or at least the 100 non-negotiable points of the list of 250, then as sad as it is, it just won't work out. There were probably a few people at BCA who could have married a Botkin girl, and maybe should have and I think it was more than their father that was in the way.

So are you saying it was doctrinal differences between BCA and Botkin beliefs that got in the way of courtship/marriage for AS and E?  Why haven't those differences affected the male Botkins ventures into matrimony so much?

Given that BCA was very much into keeping women silenced in church it rather begs the question:  Are the Botkin beliefs re. women even more conservative than BCA or did BCA consider Botkin beliefs too lax?  AS and E actually presumed to start teaching other young ladies when they were far too young to qualify as older or "aged" by Titus 2 standards.

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15 hours ago, CloakNDagger said:

That's not how they come across in person. Some of them are very nice to be around.

Maybe not. But their online presence, which is their 'ministry', is haughty as shit and I can see that being a complete turn off to your average fundie. I've never met them, and hope I never do, but the way the promote themselves online, they way they refer to themselves, the way they set themselves up as examples - examples no human could ever compete with - the way I've seen them speak in fundie sales videos  - it all comes across as immensely arrogant and they must tell everyone else how to be 'just like them' to be happy/worthy. That is, as has been said, a fundie trait all around, but they put it out there on a giant neon sign and try to sell it.

 

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IMO their approach as to how Christian women to deal with abusive men is just another way to lay blame if you do end up abused. If you can't produce the fear of God in the men abusing you while keeping sweet, then it's obvious that you're the problem and not godly enough to be protected. You would think after Doug Phillips they would dial back on the subject entirely... 

 

Oh well, if Daddy ever let's them marry it is only going to be that much more likely for it to be an actual abuser like Alan of S'mortins. Wouldn't an abuser want someone like them so they will never to be blamed for their own actions? 

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22 hours ago, CloakNDagger said:

That's not how they come across in person. Some of them are very nice to be around.

CnD, I'm intrigued.  Care to name names re: who is pleasant/kind in person?  Were there Botkins that you particularly enjoyed? 

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On 8/31/2016 at 7:09 AM, seraaa said:

Everything about their upbringing would lead them to believe that this is the only valid and holy choice, probably. They probably could do differently - it's not material factors that are necessarily holding them back - but they probably think every other option is Bad.

Definitely. The fundie parents I know whose kids have sought some independence bemoan the fact that their adult kids are not staying home and respecting their parents' authority (i.e., letting their parents dictate their every move and thought) until marriage frees them to cross the threshold into (slightly more but still wannabe parent-directed) independent life.

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I think It's not just wanting to run the kidults lives, but also a question of controlling the money.  Fundies, at least the ones I'm acquainted with, are very big on the kidult gets a job and helps support the family until such time as the "child" marries ...... or not.

 I'm not talking about families that need that income to survive. It's just another way to control the children.

The fundie I know personally forced his oldest child -- a daughter -- to give up the full scholarship (to study international relations) to a fairly prestigious college and instead live at home, major in business, and speed through college in 2.5 years. He said he prayed about it and God told him what to do -- I snarked to him that it was funny that God wanted exactly the same thing as he did.

I should mention here that he didn't need the money *at all* and his wife was always a SAHM.  His daughter was home schooled until she was nearly 15, then sent to Christian school for her last 2 years.  She was barely 20 when she graduated college.

My fundie friend's plan was that his daughter would get a job after graduating, live at home and help raise/ home school/  put her 6 siblings through college.  And she did -- for almost 13 years.

She turned over her whole salary to her father and he gave her an allowance for gas and incidentals.  Finally when she was about 30 she got her first boyfriend, but could not get engaged as there were still siblings to support.  About 3 years later the last sibling finished school and the daughter was free -- married the boyfriend within 4 mos.

My fundie friend is now lamenting that neither of his married daughters have given him grandchildren and that the 5 single children left show no signs of getting married.  4 of them have moved out and only the youngest daughter is still at home. Actually his sons never came home after college -- I think he only demanded the daughters move back

He is most upset that his oldest daughter -- the one stuck at home until nearly 33 -- has a much loved dog, but no hint of having children. She's also still working.

Why would she have children -- she's already supported and raised 6 of them

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1 hour ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

My fundie friend is now lamenting that neither of his married daughters have given him grandchildren and that the 5 single children left show no signs of getting married.  4 of them have moved out and only the youngest daughter is still at home. Actually his sons never came home after college -- I think he only demanded the daughters move back

He is most upset that his oldest daughter -- the one stuck at home until nearly 33 -- has a much loved dog, but no hint of having children. She's also still working.

Why would she have children -- she's already supported and raised 6 of them

Cheering for the offspring, and their ability to pursue self-determination despite their controlling father. More power to them.

I've heard somewhere-or-other that common theme: that homeschoolers who raise their siblings are less likely to have children of their own. I don't know if it was HA or somewhere else. It makes sense to me.

It also makes me sad, that their childhood was stolen from them. It's part of that evil teaching promoted by people like Gregg Harris (I have no idea what he's teaching now, but I remember hearing him teach in the 90s that the idea of "teenagers" was a myth and that modern society was prolonging adolescence unnecessarily) and SM Davis who on a Vision Forum CD talked about how kids were ready to assume adult responsibility at age 12.

Yes, we shouldn't coddle our teens and keep them dependent (failure to launch, like those Italian men I heard about in the news, still living with their parents into their 30s and 40s), but we also shouldn't expect an 11yo to run a household, either, or promote the idea of children raising children.

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I think it's not so much self-determination as all of the children are fundie-lite -- just that they saw the oldest as a warning of what could happen.

The boys in the family all went away to school -- paid for by their sister.  The girls all had to live at home during college.  My friend's plan was that the daughters return home after college to be under his authority until such time as he found them suitable husbands -- if he ever did  I have my suspicions that he wanted them home to completely support the household and be unpaid housekeepers.

Oh and on top of working full-time and supporting her siblings, the oldest was also full time night nurse to her mother who developed ALS a few years ago. The mother passed just after the youngest finished college.

I think the oldest daughter bolted for marriage so quickly so she wouldn't become permanent housekeeper for her father.  As far as I know the youngest, who is a daughter, has taken on that role in addition to working as a nanny.

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1 hour ago, refugee said:

(failure to launch, like those Italian men I heard about in the news, still living with their parents into their 30s and 40s)

That sounds really interesting--do you know where you saw that at?

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8 hours ago, nausicaa said:

That sounds really interesting--do you know where you saw that at?

Re those Italian men still living at home into their 30s and up: I present my eldest nephew. He'll be 30 soon and, although he's a great guy, his failure to launch is epic.

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