Do Fundies all practice what they preach?

[Palimpsest]

Starting this thread at the request of a new member, @true believer so as not to disrupt another thread.

 

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I most definitely can think for myself.  As I said, I am a fundie and nobody tells me what to think or makes my decisions for me.  My dh respects me and my opinions.  We are taught from the pulpit that a man who does not listen to his wife and take her thoughts and opinions into consideration (serious consideration) is acting foolishly.  She is given instincts and a different way of thinking by God for his good.  Women and children are highly valued in our belief system and not just  because we are the means to producing many children.  A godly man is one who cherishes, values, protects, loves, and serves his wife and family in our belief system.

Do all fundies believer that?  do all fundies practice that seriously and continuously?  No, most certainly not.  But that is what we are taught in our church and that is the aim of most of the men I know.

If we aren't to derail this very serious topic here, it might be best if these sorts of questions are taken to another thread.  I have no idea if I am even allowed to start a thread yet, so perhaps one of you might do that if ya'll would prefer this discussion be held elsewhere.

 

[true believer]

Thank you!

 

[formergothardite]

15 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

A godly man is one who cherishes, values, protects, loves, and serves his wife and family in our belief system.

What if the woman wants to not submit to the man, wants to be independent and live her life how she desired? Is she just as cherished? Is she shamed in anyway for being independent and not submissive? 

16 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

children are highly valued in our belief system

Does this mean that before having children, parents carefully consider if they are capable of caring for the children? Before having additional children, are discussions had to make sure more children will not negatively impact the existing children? Is it perfectly okay to only have one child or no children because one has considered it and realize that is what is best? Is giving all the children a good education so that both the boys and girls can go to college(if desired) and support themselves also a top priority?

[Bad Wolf]

Excellent questions everyone. I'm looking forward to the answers.

[AmazonGrace]

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Do Fundies all practice what they preach?

No.

[Palimpsest]

I can see that marriages of this kind can work - and I've observed a few that seem to an outside observerto work.  They only work if the wife actually wants to be submissive and the husband does indeed cherish, value, protect, love, and serve her and his family.

One word that is left out of that list is, of course, respect.  As in respect her opinions, her ideas and her input into their lives.  That is integral to the success of any marriage.

We can also debate whether women, by definition, need protection and whether they are indeed given different instincts and a different way of thinking instead of a penis.  Brains are not located in the penis.

@true believer, you say that you can think for yourself but if you disagreed with your husband about something important what would happen?  Would you be allowed to express your thoughts and would your husband respect them enough to change or adapt his ideas?

The real problem comes up when men abuse this extraordinary power and control over women - and I do not believe it is God-given.

@AmazonGrace  Good one! 

Yes, we have far too many examples of Fundies not practicing what they preach.

[Lurky]

These are not meant as attacking, but as my genuine "I don't understand" ponderings.

I guess my biggest problem with this kind of lifestyle, is that while adults can choose it for themselves, the children can't.  So we've seen women like the Duggar & Bates matriarchs, the Smiths, SierraJo Dominguez, Zsuzsanna (?) etc, start out as mainstream women, getting schooling and university education etc, then decide that they want to be submissive and their primary function in life be to bear as many children as possible, and I don't agree with their decisions, but that's their choice, up to the point they inflict this choice on their children.

And then we see children brought up with deliberately restricted education and options in life - and if they leave this one very narrow path, they're shunned and shamed.

This is what I can't get behind, because it feels like a lot of these adult women have chosen the lifestyle, but not only do their children, and especially their daughters being in horrible circumstances, where even if they want to, for example, go to a Bible college, even, don't have the education, or the ability to make the money to pay for it, or even have the proper ID documents. 

I guess I feel like this:  these women obviously feel like they were able to make their own choices, but that their children aren't - and I can't get my head around it.

And re having quivers full of kids - it feels like people are doing this without having the resources to look after them - and while Katie Smith is an extreme example, any one of these quiverfull families would be destroyed by an inopportune illness/difficult break to the leg.  It just seems so irresponsible to me.

Finally, a question:  the Bates and the Duggars, Rodrigueses, Smiths, Mortons etc all lucked out having a lot of daughters early on, so the mothers could hand over a lot of the child-rearing responsibilities to their pre-pubescent daughters.  But what happens if they have their sons earlier, while believing in rigid gender norms?  I do think Michelle Duggar would have slowed down and stopped, if the Lost Boys had been the first run, rather than the daughters - adn i always wonder, did the Arndts just dispense with genderised behaviour, and the older boys do the nappies/baths/feeding of the younger ones?

 

[Koala]

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We are taught from the pulpit that a man who does not listen to his wife and take her thoughts and opinions into consideration (serious consideration) is acting foolishly.

But the final decision lies with him, correct?  Because if not, the following isn't really true:

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 I am a fundie and nobody tells me what to think or makes my decisions for me.  

You can't abdicate decision making while simultaneously asserting that you make your own decisions.  Either:

A: You make your own decisions

or

B: Your husband makes your decisions for you after taking your thoughts and opinions into consideration

 
 

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children are highly valued in our belief system 

So valued that you don't hit them and use the Bible to justify your actions?

So valued that they are provided the opportunity to make religious choices for themselves, without the expectation that they will embrace the same belief system you have embraced?

So valued that girls have the same opportunities boys have?

[true believer]

 To answer the thread title question, no, all fundies do not practice what they teach.  Like every other religious group, there are those who are pretenders, who lie, cheat, etc who pretend to be what they are not.  We call them wolves in sheep's clothing.

Then there are those who are simply human, who strive to live up to the standards that are taught in the Bible by their church but fail.  True believers fall down on occasion, or are inconsistent at times, but on the whole, they repent when they fail, stand back up and continue trying.  When they realize their inconsistentcies they make an effort to rectify them.

 

[fundiefan]

I would like to know, without bible verses, how a gay couple being (finally) given the equal right to marry has any affect at all on anyone else's marriage or life? I say without bible verses because while some believe the bible is a holy book, not all do, so using a verse as evidence for an argument holds no water with me; you may as well be using verses from the book of the holy fundiefan.

Why are so many fundies so terrified of transgedered people? Is it because they don't understand or do they have some valid reasons (and the whole 'they're gonna' hurt me/my kid in the bathroom is not an argument).

Mostly, what I wonder and want to know is how and why the lives of people unlike fundies are such a threat to fundies? No one has to agree with everyone or their lives, but live and let live.

I am a heterosexual, divorced, white female pushing 50. What do the lives of anyone in this country, or this world, have to do with me? Short of crimes and/or direct physical threats to my safety, it's none of my business; just as my life is none of anyone else's business. I just see the whole anti-gay ugliness from fundies sad, and really...how would fundies like me to use the holy book of fundiefan to say that everyone in the world is wrong if they are not just like me, because that's what my holy book says?

[Koala]

6 minutes ago, true believer said:

True believers fall down on occasion, or are inconsistent at times, but on the whole, they repent when they fail, stand back up and continue trying.  When they realize their inconsistentcies they make an effort to rectify them.

 

No True Scotsman already?

I would suggest that most of the fundies we read about here are "true believers" in that the believe in God/Jesus.  Believing in a deity doesn't=righteousness.

Look at Lori Alexander and Steven Anderson.  Meaner people you'd never meet, yet I'd bet the farm that the both truly believe.  They also believe their interpretation is right, and use those interpretations to justify their (often inexcusable) actions.

[Marian the Librarian]

Two words:

Doug Phillips. 

[true believer]

I'm not yet quite sure how to quote other posts, so it may be a bit difficult for me to respond to everyone  though I will give it my best effort.  Also I have an outside life and can not be on here all the time, so it may take some time for me to answer questions.  If I miss one it is not on purpose.  Also to clarify, I do NOT speak for all fundies or even all fundies of my particular flavor.  lol

The one questions that sticks out right this second is what would happen if my dh and I had differing opinions on something important.  That has happened many times.    Most every time he has listened to me carefully and respectfully.  We have talked it out and usually come to an agreement together.  The one time he did not want to listen and decided to do it his way regardless of what I thought did not turn out well and he remembers that. 

If I chose to not be submissive to his decisions, then that would be that.  He can't make me and he doesn't want to try (and most men realize that).  Submission is something that is either given willingly or it isn't submission.

We do not believe in shunning or shaming our children or others that do not believe like we do.  I have homeschooled, as in really homeschooled not just played at it and I have taught all my dc to think for themselves.  I have asked all my adult children to think through certain decisions their father and I have made such as homeschooling, etc and to make decisions for themselves what they believe regardless of what their father and I believe.  They MUST make these decisions for themselves.  I have told them that it is not important that they believe what I believe, but rather than they sincerely believe what they believe and be able to defend that belief on their own.

[Letgo]

True Believer, are/were you involved with Vision Forum or Bill Gothard's IBLP/ATI?  Or are you just a more conservative Christian who isn't part of a group?

[MamaB]

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

What if the woman wants to not submit to the man, wants to be independent and live her life how she desired? Is she just as cherished? Is she shamed in anyway for being independent and not submissive?

She will be talked to and reasoned with on how that is not God's will for her. If she doesn't agree and chooses to live independently yes she will practically be shunned.

 

36 minutes ago, fundiefan said:

I would like to know, without bible verses, how a gay couple being (finally) given the equal right to marry has any affect at all on anyone else's marriage or life?

Why are so many fundies so terrified of transgedered people? 

Without the bible they don't know. The bible says they are evil ttherefore they are evil.

 

They are scared of them.

42 minutes ago, fundiefan said:

Mostly, what I wonder and want to know is how and why the lives of people unlike fundies are such a threat to fundies? No one has to agree with everyone or their lives, but live and let live.

Because fundies believe that everyone who is not living the fundy lifestyle is going to hell. They worry that the "worldly lifestyle" will cause them to stumble and cause them to have a sinful life.

[Palimpsest]

31 minutes ago, true believer said:

I'm not yet quite sure how to quote other posts, so it may be a bit difficult for me to respond to everyone  though I will give it my best effort.  Also I have an outside life and can not be on here all the time, so it may take some time for me to answer questions. 

 

If you highlight what you want to quote you will get an option to quote.  At least on my laptop (I can't comment on phones or Tapatalk!)  And definitely take your time with your answers - we all have real lives.

34 minutes ago, true believer said:

Also to clarify, I do NOT speak for all fundies or even all fundies of my particular flavor.  lol

Fair enough.  And thank you for your answer to my question about respect.

Speaking for myself alone, I do respect genuine faith when I see it, even when I don't agree with aspects of that faith and argue strongly against them.  

What I attack is hypocrisy.

What I see is enormous hypocrisy in the Fundamentalist Patriarchal Movement.  To the extent that churches and church leaders (not necessarily individuals pulled into that system because I see them as victims) abuse the concept of submission - to the extent that women are forced to stay with abusive husbands.  And even to stay with husbands who sexually abuse children.  Failure to do so is a failure of submission and the woman is often vilified.  I can give you far too many examples of this - not Smith or Morton related.

Do you also see this abuse by church leaders of your belief system?  How do you think it can be controlled for or wiped out?

(And others have already asked the questions pertaining to children so I won't repeat them.)

[formergothardite]

1 hour ago, true believer said:

If I chose to not be submissive to his decisions, then that would be that.  He can't make me and he doesn't want to try (and most men realize that).  Submission is something that is either given willingly or it isn't submissio

Would it be correct to say, then that your church does not teach that wives should be submissive or that being submissive is godly? Egalitarian marriages are considered fine too? 

1 hour ago, true believer said:

We do not believe in shunning or shaming our children or others that do not believe like we do.

Well that is very good that your children know they can reject your beliefs or do something like come out as being gay and you and your community would accept them no questions asked and with absolutely no shame or telling them they are not being godly. 

 

1 hour ago, true believer said:

I have asked all my adult children to think through certain decisions their father and I have made such as homeschooling, etc and to make decisions for themselves what they believe regardless of what their father and I believe. 

What about your non-adult children? Do you allow them to start making decisions too or question things? If your teen daughter told you she wanted to be a woman with a career and no children, would you start helping her reach her goals? Would that be supported by your church community? 

 

1 hour ago, true believer said:

I have told them that it is not important that they believe what I believe, but rather than they sincerely believe what they believe and be able to defend that belief on their own.

This is absolutely true.  If one of your children came out as gay, got married and had children, this wouldn't be an issue with you or your community? 

 

[true believer]

I do see the potential for abuse in my religious belief system.  Under certain circumstances, abuse of authority does occur.  There are certain types of men attracted to the fundamentalist patriarchial system who want to be tyrants and dictators and who do not value women or children.

In my fellowship that is not what is encouraged or taught or accepted in any form.  The husband/father is to be a servant leader, not the *do it my way or the highway* sort of person.

I am not associated with Gothard and have never done his program, though I know folks who have.  My church was not clearly associated with Doug Phillips in any way, though people did attend some of the conferences and such that VF hosted.  The scandal involving DP was preached against from the pulpit when it first happened.

We do not hold women responsible for the sins of their husbands.  When he choses to sin, she did not cause it in any way.  No person forces another person to sin and holds no responsibility for that.

In a child abuse case such as has been discussed here, the child would hold no responsibility for the act and would not be quilty of any sin, would have lost no value (I'm not phrasing this exactly right, but I am hoping you get the point I am trying to make).  A female who was raped or otherwise violated would not be considered to have sinned.

[true believer]

I don't have a lot of time left to answer questions today...and I leave for 2 weeks for vacation this weekend, so not sure when I will be able to respond to many of the questions, but I did want to say that I am not leaving if I am unable to post for a couple of weeks.  I haven't felt attacked or chased off.  In fact, so far, I have felt that the questions I've been asked have for the most part been respectful questions of curiousity or clarity.  Thank you to all of you for that.

I did want to clarify that a woman left with no means of support should be provided for by her family and/or church body, whether that lack of support is from a husband who left her high and dry, died, is seriously ill and unable to provide, or whatever the reason.  She should never be destitute and without help, whether that help comes from financial means, physical help in her home, emotional support, etc.  We are taught that we are the hands and feet of Christ and we are supposed to do all in our power to help others when it is possible.

[formergothardite]

3 minutes ago, true believer said:

I did want to clarify that a woman left with no means of support should be provided for by her family and/or church body, whether that lack of support is from a husband who left her high and dry, died, is seriously ill and unable to provide, or whatever the reason.  She should never be destitute and without help, whether that help comes from financial means, physical help in her home, emotional support, etc.  We are taught that we are the hands and feet of Christ and we are supposed to do all in our power to help others when it is possible.

Wouldn't it be better to make sure women are prepared to support themselves if necessary? 

[true believer]

The world would say so.  But I sincerely believe that a woman's place is in the home, generally speaking.  Most women are called to work in the home, though I would agree that some women have other callings.  I can't speak for everyone, obviously, but if a woman is called to work in her home and is left with no support for whatever reason, the family and the church body are told to provide for her and her children if there are any.    God put a support system in place for the times when one is needed.  We are called to do our part when needed and to trust Him to provide what we need.  I realize that most of you probably don't agree with that opinion and that's fine.  I don't feel the need to beat you over the head or try to convince you otherwise.  It just is what I believe. 

[Palimpsest]

4 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Wouldn't it be better to make sure women are prepared to support themselves if necessary? 

Preach it, sister!

Or, if a woman has been totally unprepared thanks to the belief system that left her completely unprepared, actually take advantage of the safety net the government supplies - as inadequate as it is.

1 minute ago, true believer said:

God put a support system in place for the times when one is needed.  We are called to do our part when needed and to trust Him to provide what we need. 

Oh, honey.  I truly hope you are never in desperate need. When push comes to shove, God's support system really sucks for so many who trusted in it.  Will you write that off as not true Christians so they don't deserve it?  

17 minutes ago, true believer said:

I don't have a lot of time left to answer questions today...and I leave for 2 weeks for vacation this weekend, so not sure when I will be able to respond to many of the questions, but I did want to say that I am not leaving if I am unable to post for a couple of weeks.

That is OK.  Come back when you can.  I will respect your vacation too and not assume you are dodging questions.

[formergothardite]

6 minutes ago, true believer said:

It just is what I believe.

It doesn't bother me one tiny bit if a woman wants to make the choice to believe that she needs to be at home, I'm a SAHM.  The problem arises when little girls are taught that their place is in the home. Which goes back to the question of if you had a teen daughter who wanted a career path and no children, would you support that or would she be told that a woman's place is in the home? Would a career minded daughter be seen as less godly in your community? 

I was raised fundie. Luckily during my most of my young days the IFB church we attended still had a lot of the women working and putting their kids in public/private school. It wasn't till I was older that the pressure to stay at home came up. But I've seen what it does to people who are raised being told a woman's place is in the home, but they desire something else. It heaps a lot of shame and guilt on them and they can get pushed into a life they hate and are unsuited for or go with a path they like, but then feel like they are less godly. That is a huge problem and it would be nice if fundies would actually address it, besides giving the "prayer harder" answer. 

Don't feel any pressure to answer during your vacation. 

[klynn]

I am also a SAHM, and a pregnant one at that.  I chose to stay home with my children, because that is what I felt was the best option.  If I wanted to go get a job, my husband would not care one bit, either way.  My kids can also choose for themselves, play violin, or don't.  Do ballet, or do karate, or neither, or both.  Or whatever. 

My main issue with the fundie way of thinking is the lack of education and exposure to real life.  So many of these kids are being horiffically stunted-by their own parents, on purpose!  I just can not imagine doing that to my daughter, simply because she is a girl.  She wants to be an astronaut when she grows up.  I say heck yeah, reach for the stars kid.  And I and my husband will do everything in our power to help her achieve that goal. 

[Palimpsest]

It is actually very interesting that so many Fundies appear to think that mothers who stay at home - are Fundie only!

Lots of mothers choose to be SAHM.  It is not Fundie territory at all.  There are also very efficient and caring SAHDads - if that is what works for their family dynamics and earning potential.