Bill Gothard, God, and sexual molestation

[Whoosh]

Just now, Cleopatra7 said:

I think Gothard has always been in a position of power, at least in his "public ministry." He first began advising at risk youth, which is already an authority position, even if it's relatively low level. I don't know much about this aspect of Gothard's life, but assuming he was mostly around teenage males, I doubt his fetishes would have had much of a reason to come out. He seems opportunistic but only around certain types (ie young women with blonde wavy hair). When he began IBLP, he was marketing himself as a Christian guru who would ensure that teens wouldn't rebel. I don't think there were ever any checks and balances on his power.

Thank you Cleopatra.  I know it is a minor point, but it has confused me for some time.  This clears a lot up for me.

[formergothardite]

32 minutes ago, libriatrix said:

This is exactly what I meant by a huge red flag. 

The fact that he's so willing to tell everyone that everything of value in life depends on being a good husband/wife and raising children well and then not do any of it himself should have alerted a lot more people to the fact that he wasn't at all interested in practicing what he preached.

 

This isn't what he taught, though. It was perfectly acceptable in his teachings for a person to remain single as long as they stayed under the authority of their parents. He encouraged people to devote part of their adult life to serving God instead of getting married.  He appeared to be practicing what he preached by living with his parents till they died, so that is why it didn't throw up any red flags. Plus, keep in mind that these were not presented as his ideas on marriage and having children, these were presented as Biblical Principals that were clearly found in the Bible. 

[Palimpsest]

39 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

This question is answered really well on Discovering Grace. Alfred keeps rambling on nonsensically about the lawsuit(it doesn't appear that he has read it) and a lawyer shows up and explains to him that this lawsuit really isn't about things that happened 20 years ago with Bill Gothard, the lawsuit is about the actions of the BoD and Bill in the last couple of years in regards to covering up abuse. 

"The primary legal allegations are actually for negligent and intentional emotional distress arising from IBLP and Gothard’s public statements issued in 2014 denying that any illegal/criminal or sexual conduct took place. Most laypersons and the press are focusing on all the juicy details, some of which took place a long time ago, but the primary legal arguments being made to the court regards conduct that undisputably took place in 2014, not 20 years ago. "

http://www.discoveringgrace.com/questions/#comment-1618

Alfred, of course, is still saying awful stuff like this:

"One thing we know for sure . . . one person’s “assault” is another person’s “touches of affirmation”, completely acceptable. "

I take a sort of twisted pleasure in the fact that the appalling Albert's Discovering Grace answers the question really well.

[SledCat]

I guess the Bates family just doesn't rate news headlines? Gill Bates is named front and center on the 5th page of that lawsuit, right next to Erin Bates-Paine's father in law. It's not like you have to get 50 pages into the document. The Duggars are (rightly) vilified, but the Bates keep flying under the radar.

eta: ye gods. The lawsuit is just rage inducing, and utterly tragic. I can see why people are reading in small doses.

[AliceInFundyland]

Unfortunately, the Bates haven't been on tv for 10+ years and Up is not widely available. I do find that I can discuss Gothard with more and more people though, which is saying something. When discussing my interests the explanation time for what "freejinger" means has been reduced dramatically in the past 6 months, and the more news savvy are actually aware of him, and terms such as Quiverfull. I think the Bates are walking a very fine line.

[nickelodeon]

Catapult him into the sun!

[nobleandstrong]

wow. just shared this with my facebook feed and with my parents, who went to Gothard's seminars & got the red books.  

Called to tell them that they have an email that they may want to read, and in the phone call I find out that they did not like Gothard beyond the seminars.  And that they recently found out about Jack Hyles' real nature and actions.  

It's bittersweet to find out that they did not believe as much of it (the fundamentalistic ideology) as I thought, because the schools that they sent me to and the churches that we went to as a family, were heavily influenced by Gothard and Hyles along with others.  

[Palimpsest]

3 hours ago, AliceInFundyland said:

Unfortunately, the Bates haven't been on tv for 10+ years and Up is not widely available. I do find that I can discuss Gothard with more and more people though, which is saying something. When discussing my interests the explanation time for what "freejinger" means has been reduced dramatically in the past 6 months, and the more news savvy are actually aware of him, and terms such as Quiverfull. I think the Bates are walking a very fine line.

You are wrong about the bolded.  A mathematics error on your part?

The Bates Family was on TV on TLC/Discovery in 2012 with the "United Bates of America."  They then moved to UP in 2014 with "Bringing Up Bates."  I do agree that both TLC and UP are cable channels with limited viewership.  Thank goodness.

The Bates family is not walking a fine line so much as they are teetering on the edge of a precipice.  While they present as kinder and more relatable than the Duggars, Gil Bates is up to his neck in IBLP.  It is hard to explain to the general public that, as a family, the Bateses are not as sweet and functional as they appear on TV.  There is rot at the core of this family's beliefs.

Gothard has hit the headlines in the last year with the sexual abuse scandal.  It is time for Gil Bates to be called out for his involvement with the attempted cover-up of BG's crimes by the board of IBLP.

[AliceInFundyland]

I know they were the united bates of America and appeared on 19 kids... I suppose a more accurate word choice would be that they weren't consistently on TV for 10 years and then made headline news in a national scandal. You are correct...i was just in a hurry and assumed most of us knew that's what I meant.

I'm cool with precipice. That would be Much more satisfying to see them fall over.

[47of74]

13 hours ago, NachosFlandersStyle said:

Another Iowan! I don't even live there anymore but I've still got a 515 number so I'm getting 2 or 3 calls a day from pollsters and campaigns. I cringe so hard hearing far-right candidates talk about "Iowa values"... speak for yourselves, idiots!

Yeah these far reich candidates wouldn't know Iowa values if it came up and bit them in the ass.

They don't really call my cell phone too much and I just decline the call if it's someone I don't know.  I figure if it's something important that's what voice mail is for.  I work from home and one of the requirements for doing that is a landline.  So I had a landline installed at home.  Wasn't even two days and the politicians were calling that line.

[OldFadedStar]

I feel the Duggars mostly got exposed due to their level of celebrity and their level of bigotry. I feel the two definitely went hand and hand. The Bates are much more likable... they don't appear to be as big of bigots as the duggars appear to be. They seem much more approachable. There aren't as many people who care to snark on the bates as it appears for the duggars.

[formergothardite]

I really wish the Bates would get their comeuppance. It is long past time for it to happen. 

[Palimpsest]

8 hours ago, AliceInFundyland said:

I know they were the united bates of America and appeared on 19 kids... I suppose a more accurate word choice would be that they weren't consistently on TV for 10 years and then made headline news in a national scandal. You are correct...i was just in a hurry and assumed most of us knew that's what I meant.

I'm cool with precipice. That would be Much more satisfying to see them fall over.

Ah.  Many thanks for the clarification.  I see exactly what you meant now. 

[Howl]

I'm waiting for some decent men to step forward, because Gothard was always surrounded by staff and interns (except, presumably, when at home) and at least some of them had to be noticing that things weren't right.  It had to be noticed that Bill Gothard was "counseling" young women in his home and it wasn't a secret that Gothard had a strong preference for young girls with a certain "look". 

This was a rigidly controlled environment where young people could be called on the carpet, or even sent home, for having a brief conversation with a member of the opposite sex and it can't have escaped notice that Bill Gothard did not play by the rules. 

I'm waiting for other women to step forward, because at least some of them had to have known of the abuse, but who could they go to with this knowledge at the time, and in that environment?

I'm waiting for the parents to step forward, the parents whose daughters came to them with the truth of what happened at the hands of Bill Gothard. 

Like Steve Gothard's behavior many years ago, I suspect all of this was an open secret, but the rule was protect Dear Leader at any cost. 

[Walking Cat Bed]

16 hours ago, iknowright said:

I understand how you feel.  But, if you really study and investigate cults and their history, no one joins a cult...they join movements because it gives them purpose and a hope of "making things right" they feel are wrong - and that can be extremism in any form be it liberal or conservative.  

I hope there is justice done for these women.  But even if this cult disintegrates (and it never will entirely - shoot there are still people who are STILL in denial from People's Temple), people are not FORCED to join cults.  Yes, innocent victims pay the high price of those they depend on who join dangerous cults, but that is what happens when slowly, but surely you lose your God-given identity and hand it over to another human.  

The good news is that the red flags that will set off will help scare some who may have considered ATI/IBLP and did not know the background.  

I'd argue that children born into families that are already entrenched are forced to join the cult in question. 

 

The "second generation" members -- like the Duggar and Keller and Bates kids -- have not had a choice about their involvement in Gothardism. Sure, some have become devoted to the Gothard life as adults (like the young adults who were employed by ATI), but I'm not convinced they consciously decided to follow Bill Gothard. Figuring out the rules of your upbringing and following them better than your teachers is a defense mechanism as much as it is genuine belief.

 

I think time will tell who really *believed* Gothard's teachings and who decided that excelling in an abusive environment was the safest option. (A good movie that shows how people throw themselves into fanaticism to escape abuse is The Magdalene Sisters -- it's hard to watch, though.)

[iknowright]

3 minutes ago, Walking Cat Bed said:

I'd argue that children born into families that are already entrenched are forced to join the cult in question. 

 

The "second generation" members -- like the Duggar and Keller and Bates kids -- have not had a choice about their involvement in Gothardism. Sure, some have become devoted to the Gothard life as adults (like the young adults who were employed by ATI), but I'm not convinced they consciously decided to follow Bill Gothard. Figuring out the rules of your upbringing and following them better than your teachers is a defense mechanism as much as it is genuine belief.

 

I think time will tell who really *believed* Gothard's teachings and who decided that excelling in an abusive environment was the safest option. (A good movie that shows how people throw themselves into fanaticism to escape abuse is The Magdalene Sisters -- it's hard to watch, though.)

Agree none of the second generation consciously chose to join, but some of their spouses did (Whitney Bates, Derrick).  The others married within the cult.  I do think always second generation cult members have a better chance of escaping, so I'm hopeful for that.  As of yet, though, within these families, I have not seen it happen yet.

[Walking Cat Bed]

Exactly. I still hope that the second generation starts to break away (especially as legal troubles make it harder to ignore the serious problems), but I can only hold on to so much hope without any evidence that they ARE leaving. 

[19 cats and counting]

As for spouses who joined the cult (Whitney, Derick, Ben, etc).  As of right now, all of them (famous) have kids who are too young to be in school.  Some of them went to public schools (Derick did, not sure about Whitney or Ben) and may want their own kids to be in public school.  And a lot can change between now and the time Bradley Bates is old enough for school.

(Anna Duggar, already in the cult when she married, is a different story.  I would eat my shoe if Mackynzie was enrolled in public school).  

[WonderingInWA]

Sara Smith (now married and Sara Absher, but was Christopher Maxwell's failed engagement) worked for Gothard for several years.  She's cute and spunky.  I wonder what she knows.

[molecule]

Love, Joy, Feminism has a very helpful post up about the suit and the various allegations: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2016/01/a-summary-of-allegations-against-bill-gothard-and-iblp.html. (My apologies if this was posted earlier in the thread and I missed it. I did check first!)

[Gimme a Free RV]

Don't know if this has been referenced in the past, but I stumbled upon this very interesting article, in which the mind of the reader will be lured into many rabbit holes of memories of things we've talked about here at FJ:

http://www.biblicalresearchreports.com/Bill-Gothard-Fraud.php

It's long, but well worth the read.

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, Walking Cat Bed said:

Exactly. I still hope that the second generation starts to break away (especially as legal troubles make it harder to ignore the serious problems), but I can only hold on to so much hope without any evidence that they ARE leaving. 

On an optimistic note, some of them are leaving or have already left.  See Recovering Grace, exATI, and (spelling?) Micah's website.  Darn, I'm blanking on the name but I'm sure someone else will remember it.

The Keller family's retention rate is pretty dismal too.  Suze, Daniel, and Rebekah are all out of the cult.  They probably still identify as conservative Christians.  Even John and Esther Shrader have left Gothard - although John is definitely his own special brand of nutty Fundie!

[Gimme a Free RV]

Holy Combover, Batman!

(Just for fun, what do we think he's saying in this picture?  **cough...lookathislefthand...cough**)

[Howl]

48 minutes ago, molecule said:

Love, Joy, Feminism has a very helpful post up about the suit and the various allegations: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2016/01/a-summary-of-allegations-against-bill-gothard-and-iblp.html. (My apologies if this was posted earlier in the thread and I missed it. I did check first!)

That was profoundly painful to read, even though I've read quite a bit on Recovering Grace and HA.  Although some ATI diehards will never believe the details of the lawsuit, a light bulb will come of for many, both for how horrible Bill Gothard is and for how the Board and ATI staff closed their eyes to what was going on. 

Really hoping the victims get some restitution, before everything is sold off.  

[molecule]

Just now, Howl said:

That was profoundly painful to read, even though I've read quite a bit on Recovering Grace and HA

I agree. I read the lawsuit yesterday so wasn't surprised by the post. Nonetheless, seeing the relevant information pulled together without all the legal language interspersed was more painful for me than reading the lawsuit was.