Jump to content
IGNORED

Attacks in Nice, France


ven

Recommended Posts

The thing is, these people are not fundamentalists. They're not Muslim, period. They have no religious loyalty or affiliation at all. They're terrorists. The fact that they've killed and injured over 2200 Muslims since the beginning of the year and many during Ramadan is a big red flag. Some people point fingers at Wahabbism, which is creating all kinds of problems within Sunni Islam. However, ISIS still terrorises Saudi Arabia. I'm guessing they'll try to attack Hajj, which will be at the beginning of September. I think the world underestimates just how profound the attack at Medina last week affected the Muslim world. That was a signal to Muslims everywhere that nowhere is safe or sacred to ISIS. 

Their whole shtick is to get people to turn on Islam, and it's working. You've got Trump on Fox News tonight saying he'd start WWIII if he was President, and Gingrich tweeting that all Muslims need to be interviewed and deported if they believe in "sharia" (a word that can't even be easily defined). This is exactly what ISIS wants.

Their whole aim is to create distrust of Muslims in the West and start conflict and eventually war. They keep hitting France because of it's large Muslim population and to sow seeds of discord. You can bet they're watching what's happening in the US and are probably giddy over it. 

These people are nothing but depraved, sick murderers. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[snipped/my bold]

@Imagine20, I agree with your entire position.

1 hour ago, Imagine20 said:

They're not Muslim, period. They have no religious loyalty or affiliation at all. They're terrorists. The fact that they've killed and injured over 2200 Muslims since the beginning of the year and many during Ramadan is a big red flag.

Exactly, they're indeed simply terrorist, and their hostage is a major religion practiced around the world.

1 hour ago, Imagine20 said:

Their whole shtick is to get people to turn on Islam, and it's working. You've got Trump on Fox News tonight saying he'd start WWIII if he was President, and Gingrich tweeting that all Muslims need to be interviewed and deported if they believe in "sharia" (a word that can't even be easily defined). This is exactly what ISIS wants.

The USA has seen a mainstream political party hijacked, started by the Moral Majority (70's/80's). We've experienced mainstream protestant faiths infiltrated by extreme religious fundamentalist. Their initial mission is accomplished, we are indeed divided as a Nation.  

We shouldn't turn on practitioners of faith, simply because some have been used as a tool by radicals. As an Atheist, I may not embrace religion, but I damn sure will not villainize Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Buddhist etc. due to acts of aggression upon their faith.  

Again, there are no words to express the great sympathy I have for the victims, their families and friends.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I felt void, felt literally nothing until I saw the images of the crumpled strollers and that abandoned doll in the middle of the street surrounded by bodies under the blue sheets. It gets worse every time. 

My thoughts and condolences are with France and all French people. I hope our members and their loved ones are safe and well.

2 hours ago, Arwen said:

Fundamentalism.

Yes this is a snark site but frankly if people don't call out the everyday fundamentalism in their communities, it gets a bigger foothold, and more and more people are hurt by it.  So I think FJ is more than snark even if some of it is snark.  Sometimes snark is the only way to get people to understand your point.

Snark is powerful, first was Charlie Hebdo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A while back I read a book about why young men become terrorists (Talking With the Enemy by Scott Atran), and the author theorizes that these are young men who feel sort of left behind and lost in one way or another. And then they see this big religious community, and they're kind of fundie, but what do you know, all their friends are joining up! And some of them are going to go to a camp in another country to train in weapons and help fight against the enemies of their religion/ethnic group. How cool does that sound to a young guy who wants to do cool, meaningful things with his friends and have someone listen to him and know his name?

What ISIS does, I think, is particularly awful: they lure these young men in with promises of glory, camaraderie, a great utopia where they'll finally matter and the West will be cut down to size. And they get more and more and more recruits by committing attacks designed to marginalize these young men (and Muslims in general) more and more. It's all just a big circle of hate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A while back I read a book about why young men become terrorists (Talking With the Enemy by Scott Atran), and the author theorizes that these are young men who feel sort of left behind and lost in one way or another. And then they see this big religious community, and they're kind of fundie, but what do you know, all their friends are joining up! And some of them are going to go to a camp in another country to train in weapons and help fight against the enemies of their religion/ethnic group. How cool does that sound to a young guy who wants to do cool, meaningful things with his friends and have someone listen to him and know his name?

What ISIS does, I think, is particularly awful: they lure these young men in with promises of glory, camaraderie, a great utopia where they'll finally matter and the West will be cut down to size. And they get more and more and more recruits by committing attacks designed to marginalize these young men (and Muslims in general) more and more. It's all just a big circle of hate.



Thank you@nastyhobbitses. That's so true. And don't forget that in France lots of Muslims live in very bad neighbourhoods with bad education and little chance to get a decent job.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've watched this unfold since last night and have been sick to my stomach ever since. Those poor, poor, innocent people, it's unfortunately one of those situations that is shocking yet unsurprising. France has seen more of it's young Muslim population go to fight for ISIS than any other European country, and now the terror is within her own borders, perpetrated by her own citizens.

This morning, I listened to the French Ambassador to Ireland, call for support and solidarity for the French people. If terrorism wins in our heads and hearts through fear, we have lost not only the battle, but the whole war.

Vive La France x

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just horrible.  Yet again, words fail me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm fed up and angry. I'm angry that the friends and family of those murdered are hurting, and face a lifetime of missing their loved ones. I'm angry for all those wounded, and their loved ones. I'm angry that I can do sweet FA to stop this. And I'm bloody angry that my first thought was "Again?".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Mercer said:

I just can't even come up with a coherent response to this violence anymore.

 

9 hours ago, RosyDaisy said:

The only thing I can come up with is: Oh, another one. I know that sounds cold, but what else is left to say?

I've become numb to it all at this point.  I don't even know what to say.  It's the same thing with mass shootings in the US- it's happening so often that the horror and rage and impotence I used to feel in the face of these events has finally given way to nothing.

I just don't understand the mindset of any kind of terrorist, no matter what creed they claim to pray to.  How is killing your fellow man OK?  What kind of fucked up God do you worship that demands you go out and murder your fellow man in cold blood because you don't like the way they choose to live their lives?  I just don't understand.

I gave it overnight to sink in as I started receiving my news alerts last night.  And today I still feel the same way I did last night: numb and lacking comprehension.

My heart is with the French people this morning.  At least until the next tragedy moves the focus again.  And I'm as sure that the sun will rise again tomorrow morning there will be another one because apparently the "get along" and "if you can't say something nice don't say anything at all" lessons from kindergarten never stuck with parts of this world.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Events have already started blending together for me. Watching the news this morning, they mentioned the other attacks in France and I really had to stop and remember what atrocity took place at which event. Airport bombing? Truck bomb in the market? Random shootings? It actually took me a minute to remember Charlie Hebdo and the other Paris attacks. I'm sure I'm not the only one this has happened to and it's an incredibly sad commentary on how commonplace terrorism has become.

Never forget.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Imagine20 said:

The thing is, these people are not fundamentalists. They're not Muslim, period. They have no religious loyalty or affiliation at all. 

Their whole aim is to create distrust of Muslims in the West and start conflict and eventually war.

These people are nothing but depraved, sick murderers.

6 hours ago, nastyhobbitses said:

A while back I read a book about why young men become terrorists (Talking With the Enemy by Scott Atran), and the author theorizes that these are young men who feel sort of left behind and lost in one way or another. And then they see this big religious community, and they're kind of fundie, but what do you know, all their friends are joining up! And some of them are going to go to a camp in another country to train in weapons and help fight against the enemies of their religion/ethnic group. How cool does that sound to a young guy who wants to do cool, meaningful things with his friends and have someone listen to him and know his name?

(snipped for brevity)

I don't disagree that ISIS has hurt many Muslims horribly and that their goal is to just plain start a war.  And I think it's been pretty widely reported that at least some of the ISIS leaders aren't really/at all keeping with the tenets of their faith.

But if we ignore the religious aspect of the phenomenon that is ISIS then we will not solve the problem.  These folks feel lost and like many people who join fundy cults,  they find answers in a legalistic perversion of a faith that appears to promise glory if they follow the right rules--which typically include giving frustrated, lost young men the "right" to enslave, terrorize, and/or control women and anyone else they don't like.  The leaders don't practice what they preach, hence porn on ISIS leaders' computers and...well, Josh Duggar, 'nuff said there.

I'm sure terrorists are seen by rational Muslims as not truly Muslim, just as I, as a Christian, don't think Gothardism is Christian.  But taking on Gothardism while ignoring the religious aspect of it would be absurd and get you nowhere.  A lot of people who escaped cults did so not because the abuse got too bad to tolerate (in fact, the abuse some of them tolerated (thinking of Warren Jeff's here) is mind-boggling), but because they stopped believing that the cult had all the answers.  Belief is a huge part of this so we can't fight the power of fundy cults without dealing with the lure of fundamentalism to those who feel lost.

I think a lot more productive discussions would happen if we were able to think of ISIS as a cult because then we can deal with them without attacking innocent Muslims, which currently gives more fodder for those lost ones to sign up to fight the west, and the cycle repeats.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So now news reports are coming in about the guy who did it. I feel conflicted about writing his name because I want him to die nameless and faceless. I want him to disappear like all the other people like him. But apparently, he was a real jerk according to his neighbors, and became a bigger asshole after his wife left him (gee, I wonder why she left). He was more interested in inappropriately hitting on girls and salsa dancing than religion per se, at least until his wife decided she'd had enough. The police already had quite the file on him due to domestic violence.

So that makes his profile very similar to our man in Orlando -- guy wasn't particularly religious as far as most people could tell, but was an abusive asshole. He just latched onto the world's biggest club of abusive, sociopathic assholes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is just awful. My Mum and step dad are going on holidays to France in a week and a half, and yesterday evening got a phone call from their friends in France as they will meeting up etc. They were out celebrating Bastille Day (not in Nice) and could hear the fireworks in the background so it was hard to hear them.  I didn't realize it was Bastille Day before that. I couldn't believe when maybe 2 hours later I clicked on a news site with Bastille Day terror headlines. Really shocking!

When I first read it, I think it said 70 killed, by the time I passed on the news to my Mum in the other room, and came back to read more/process it, the number had gone up to 73, and before I turned out for bed, it was then 77. This morning the number was 84 I think, so I stopped checking. Horrible seeing the number rising like that.

I also hate seeing those photos and videos.  I can't imagine being involved in a terrifying ordeal like that, but the last thing I would be doing is taking out my phone to document it. Not very respectful to those who didn't manage to make it or their grieving families. I don't understand how people can take and post photos of that. 

The world is a sad and scary place. It doesn't seem that long ago since the Paris attacks and too many other attacks have taken place elsewhere in between.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, Arwen said:

Well, it's fundamentalism, isn't it?  I really think that's what it all comes down to.  What separates the gazillion Muslims who wouldn't do this from those who would?  What separates the gazillion Christians who wouldn't essentially enslave the women in their lives and those who would?

Fundamentalism.

Yes this is a snark site but frankly if people don't call out the everyday fundamentalism in their communities, it gets a bigger foothold, and more and more people are hurt by it.  So I think FJ is more than snark even if some of it is snark.  Sometimes snark is the only way to get people to understand your point.

If you look at the perpetrators of the terrorist attacks in Paris, Brussels, Orlando, and Nice, none of the perpetrators were "fundamentalists" in the way the term is commonly used; they did not go to any mosque, were not affiliated with any formally recognized religious organizations, and were not known among their associates as being pious or even particularly knowledgeable about Islam. I mean, the Orlando shooter claimed to be a supporter of Hezbollah, Al Qaeda, and ISIS, groups that hate each other, so he clearly didn't do his homework. Either that or he knew the media would be too dumb to know how contradictory this is. While ISIS is definitely an Islamic fundamentalist group, the Western recruits who are engaging in these terrorist attacks are not particularly religious. It's not the most religious people that are necessarily pledging allegiance to ISIS and committing these acts. The question then is why are indifferent Muslims fighting for a group that calls itself the Islamic State? It's not coincidental that these individuals tend to be petty or violent criminals with contacts in the underworld. ISIS needs these criminals because they provide them with money and access to illegal weapons. They already have a grudge against society and joining ISIS allows them to continue being violent in an ostensibly righteous cause that will justify past and future violent acts, not unlike the SA "Brownshirts" in Nazi Germany. Like the SA, these Western conscripts are expendable in the eyes of the leadership, whom you can bet aren't going to self-immolate themselves in the way they are encouraging for their foot soldiers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Arwen of course there's a convoluted religious aspect to these groups. It's a religion that is not followed by adherents to Islam.  However, when our politicians lump these terrorists in with everyday Muslims it has a negative effect on those who have no ties at all to their perverted cult.  Most Americans know nothing about Islam outside of what they see on the news, which is overwhelmingly bad. The public assumes that if these murderers are "radical Islam" then all Muslims must at least in part believe the same things and back this campaign of terror. I know that's what's happening because, every time a politician connects the two together there is an increase in the every day bullying comments Mr Imagine and I hear everyday. 

ISIS wants that, too. They want the West to turn on Muslims and Muslims, in turn, to turn on the West.  As ISIS continues to hurt people John Q Public, takes it out on any Muslims they see going about their lives. ISIS hopes that will draw Muslims to seek revenge. A never ending circle of hatred.

It's sad. And very, very scary. I'm personally very afraid of Trump becoming President and we have taken steps to make sure we can leave the US ASAP if necessary. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've said it before @Imagine20.  I hate that you have to have an exit plan for fear of what will happen in a Trump presidency.  But I don't blame you.  You're smart to have a contingency plan.  Hopefully it won't be necessary.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I want to clarify my earlier comments on the piety or lack thereof of the perpetrators of the recent terrorist attacks. What I meant to say is that it's not always the most pious or religious people who became religiously motivated terrorists. They are mobilized into ISIS before they have coherent religious views, and those that live long enough gradually change their opinions and behavior to become more in sync with ISIS' theology. This may sound counter-intuitive, but it happens in quite a few social movements, violent and nonviolent. I got this idea from "The Making of Pro-Life Activists" by Ziad W. Munson, who also says that the most religious or vocally opposed to abortion do not necessarily become anti-abortion activists. He has a six stage model of mobilization: basic information, turning point, contact, initial activism, development of beliefs, and full participation. Many of the Western ISIS supporters' behavior can be explained by this model. They have basic information by coming from Muslim homes, although they may be nonpracticing or apathetic for much of their lives. A turning point makes them eager to find a new direction in life. This could be a divorce, entering a new school, and most critically for many French fighters, going to prison. They make contact with an ISIS supporter, oftentimes through social media, but real life social circles also seem to be important recruiting mechanisms, especially for those ISIS supporters involved in procuring illegal arms and money. They will begin their initial activism, which could be joining a jihadist social media page or becoming more educated about ISIS' platform, so to speak. Because of the clandestine nature of ISIS, much of this probably occurs online. Jihadist beliefs then reach a more definite form in the mind of the adherent. The final stage is full participation, which could mean going to fight for ISIS in Syria or committing domestic terrorism in one's own country. Through this model, one can see how it is possible to be superficially secular to outsiders while harboring jihadist beliefs on the inside. Indeed, this is a good way to through possible investigators off the trail; the 9/11 hijackers visited strip clubs and drank during their stays in the U.S. for this very reason. Behavior that is normally off limits to pious Muslims can be justified if it means furthering the aims of the jihadist organization, which of course thinks it is furthering the aims of Islam as a whole. Indeed, I think that many of these individuals, especially those with criminal backgrounds, which is most of them, think that they can redeem themselves in the eyes of god by engaging in terrorist attacks. This post ended up being way longer than I anticipated, but I hope this better explains what I was trying to say.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/16/2016 at 8:41 AM, bashfulpixie said:

I've said it before @Imagine20.  I hate that you have to have an exit plan for fear of what will happen in a Trump presidency.  But I don't blame you.  You're smart to have a contingency plan.  Hopefully it won't be necessary.

I can't believe that as a 4th generation American there is a miniscule chance that I might actually have to leave. 

These times are crazy. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.