Josh Harris rethinks his approach to courtship

[meep]

I decided to check on Rebelution's facebook page. They are still linking gems like this: relevantmagazine.com/life/dangers-pursuing-your-passion

" Our parents, teachers and even the media encourage us to achieve our dreams. The world sends cheesy one-liners about doing what you love. These slogans become mantras. We get high off of the idea of discarding our troubles in exchange for a carefree life full of fun and excitement that results from pursuing our passion."................wut?

Also, did you guys see Josh Harris is taking feedback on his website about the book? Hmmm.

[libriatrix]

On July 11, 2016 at 10:44 AM, hoipolloi said:

No word on what Josh's sister is doing (his mother died of cancer several years ago), but one wonders if she has been given the opportunity to go to college or do what she thinks is best for herself?

I was just looking at her Facebook the other day, actually -- it seems to be public. Looks like she's a SAHM; definitely a mother and no work mentioned so I assume SAH. No college listed on Facebook but if I'm doing my math right she got married around the age a college graduate would be, so it's still possible she went. She did competitive debate in high school and was definitely encouraged to think critically to a certain extent, although not enough to depart from the party line.

[hoipolloi]

4 hours ago, meep said:

Also, did you guys see Josh Harris is taking feedback on his website about the book? Hmmm.

Well, maybe he thinks it's feedback but it looks more like grist for a PR mill to me, considering he's asking commenters about their willingness to appear in videos with him or attend "listening sessions."

With statements like the following, it's hard to take anything he says about regret or apology seriously:

Quote

Over the years I’ve heard from people who have been helped by the book, but I’ve also heard a growing number of voices of people who have been hurt by it. I want to understand this better. 

When he withdraws the book(s) from sale, I'll believe he regrets it all.

Otherwise, 

[CyborgKin]

5 hours ago, meep said:

I decided to check on Rebelution's facebook page. They are still linking gems like this: relevantmagazine.com/life/dangers-pursuing-your-passion

" Our parents, teachers and even the media encourage us to achieve our dreams. The world sends cheesy one-liners about doing what you love. These slogans become mantras. We get high off of the idea of discarding our troubles in exchange for a carefree life full of fun and excitement that results from pursuing our passion."................wut?

Also, did you guys see Josh Harris is taking feedback on his website about the book? Hmmm.

Do they actually talk to outsiders to learn how people in the world actually think and act?  Cos it looks more like they just make up whatever they need to in order to scare their followers into, well, following.

[Coco]

On 7/11/2016 at 9:02 AM, IrishCarrie said:

Joshie-boy needs to man up and admit he was an arrogant little dipstick who thought he had insight, but that he has since grown up and now knows how very, very, very little he knows. 

Here's a top tip for life, my little sunflower: one size never fits all. Ever.

Now grow some stones and apologise properly, you big hairy eejit.

 

lol! preach it. i listened to a big windy he gave at the Arlington Book Fair, your description is spot on. 

[Palimpsest]

36 minutes ago, Coco said:

lol! preach it. i listened to a big windy he gave at the Arlington Book Fair, your description is spot on. 

@Coco You are back!  

Missed you.

 

[Coco]

17 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

@Coco You are back!  

Missed you.

 

 

Thanks! i've missed you all too! Finally got my desktop back to life after six months of limited data mobile  i love the update!

[Toothfairy]

On Monday, July 11, 2016 at 5:56 AM, Gertie said:

Have you guys seen this? 

 

http://www.npr.org/2016/07/10/485432485/former-evangelical-pastor-rethinks-his-approach-to-courtship

Josh Harris:

 

Hmmm. Wonder what fundies think.

[Palimpsest]

30 minutes ago, Coco said:

Thanks! i've missed you all too! Finally got my desktop back to life after six months of limited data mobile  i love the update!

I know the feeling and  I love the update too.  I am so happy to see you back here again. 

[Toothfairy]

On Tuesday, July 12, 2016 at 10:09 AM, LittleSpouseOnThePrairie said:

I have sooooooo much resentment over the teenage tears I shed about clothing I wasn't allowed to wear. All my friends were in cute bikinis and i was in unflattering boob smashing one pieces. They got to wear gorgeous strapless gowns to homecoming and prom, and I had to argue just to get some ugly dress that looked like a floor length satin tank top. "It's not modest enough" was a broken record message from my father (the restrictions he placed on my mother were even worse). 

One day when I was bawling my mom sat me down and said "men have natural urges that lead them to sinful thoughts. It is our job as women to help them by covering up so they aren't led to temptation." 

THAT IS SUCH BULLSHIT! Not my fault I grew breasts, not my fault I had a toned read end, not my fault I enjoyed fashion and didn't want to wear sacks with arm holes for clothing. WHY SHOULD SOME MAN'S THOUGHTS BE MY RESPONSIBILITY???

 

Why can't men control themselves? Funny how men are supposed to be leaders but have to have women cover up because they can't control themselves.

[RosyDaisy]

That's a question my husband would like an answer to. My reply was you weren't raised by fundie parents.

[louisa05]

19 hours ago, Toothfairy said:

Why can't men control themselves? Funny how men are supposed to be leaders but have to have women cover up because they can't control themselves.

I'm sure I have said this here more than once...but the rhetoric about men being unable to handle any sexual temptation thus women have to worry obsessively about everything they wear to protect them, and they can't be alone with a woman they aren't married to, and premarital handholding (or frontal hugging or whatever random line a particular group has fixated on) will cause them to immediately jump a poor defenseless woman...None of that makes it plausible that these same men who lack any self control (one of the fruits of the spirit in the Bible they profess to believe) are the only ones fit to lead families, churches, government and women must answer to them in all things. 

It isn't actually logical at all. Such weak minded fragile people should probably not be in charge of anything. Possibly not even themselves. 

[CyborgKin]

There's a Do Hard Things Bible reading plan which is unfortunately the latest one added to the Bible app I use, so whenever I open the app I have to see 'DO HARD THINGS' in black, white, and red.

Happily it's easy enough to scroll through the list for something nicer.  Some of the studies' cover images even have ladies who don't meet the Haris boys' crazy modesty standards.  Bare shoulders, gasp!

[FormerlyFundyLite]

No Shame Movement had a Twitter conversation on the impact of IKDG yesterday. They Storyfy'd it if anybody's interested: https://storify.com/noshamemov/kissing-shame-goodbye.

[FormerlyFundyLite]

Also, am amused at the irony of my flair...Finally Kissed Dating Goodbye--just in time for the Josh Harris drama.

[chaotic life]

I did not read all of the responses. But I had to chime in that this book was instrumental in my own "courtship" at 21. That decision led to an experience where even when I KNEW it was going to end badly 7 years ago, I was tied to 8 children with no wage earning skills by the time I knew I had to leave, and I walked a nightmare for the last 7 years to reach a point where I could escape.

Saying it's being used wrong is not nearly enough given how many in my Christian dorm and early parenting in Fundie lite circles were so heavily influenced by Harris and his book.

I have directly taught differently to my children because this book and the whole revolution it sparked trapped me in an abusive marriage with a sex addict for FAR too long, and I want my own kids to be healthy and safe, and his method prevents you from being able to tell if those might even remotely be the outcome.

[Queen]

On 16 juli 2016 at 7:51 PM, louisa05 said:

I'm sure I have said this here more than once...but the rhetoric about men being unable to handle any sexual temptation thus women have to worry obsessively about everything they wear to protect them, and they can't be alone with a woman they aren't married to, and premarital handholding (or frontal hugging or whatever random line a particular group has fixated on) will cause them to immediately jump a poor defenseless woman...None of that makes it plausible that these same men who lack any self control (one of the fruits of the spirit in the Bible they profess to believe) are the only ones fit to lead families, churches, government and women must answer to them in all things. 

It isn't actually logical at all. Such weak minded fragile people should probably not be in charge of anything. Possibly not even themselves. 

I wish av could like this post a thousand times! 

[hoipolloi]

An OpEd by an evangelical woman on IKDGB in the Washington Post:

Quote

 

So many women in my life cracked under the untenable pressure, often giving up on God all together. Others were forced into marriages with men who hit them and hid their abuse behind another message of the church borne from purity culture, that God hates divorce.

Purity culture also taught me that more than my mind and my talents, my body was my greatest gift. The insidious message of purity culture still clings fast in my marriage, and I often put it at the root of some of my deepest anxieties and fears. Recently, while telling a friend from church about a disagreement with my husband, she suggested having more sex. She showed me a handout from her pastor on making a happy home. The number one suggestion: “being available to your husband’s needs.” As if what was between my legs was the problem and not the very center of my heart.

 

 

[formergothardite]

On 7/13/2016 at 11:49 PM, hoipolloi said:

Well, maybe he thinks it's feedback but it looks more like grist for a PR mill to me, considering he's asking commenters about their willingness to appear in videos with him or attend "listening sessions."

Yeah, it seems to me that he wants to spin this into another money making venture, not admit that his book was a pile of crap. 

I briefly had a crush on Josh Harris when his book first came out. 

[Gertie]

On 22.7.2016 at 11:53 AM, chaotic life said:

I did not read all of the responses. But I had to chime in that this book was instrumental in my own "courtship" at 21. That decision led to an experience where even when I KNEW it was going to end badly 7 years ago, I was tied to 8 children with no wage earning skills by the time I knew I had to leave, and I walked a nightmare for the last 7 years to reach a point where I could escape.

Saying it's being used wrong is not nearly enough given how many in my Christian dorm and early parenting in Fundie lite circles were so heavily influenced by Harris and his book.

I have directly taught differently to my children because this book and the whole revolution it sparked trapped me in an abusive marriage with a sex addict for FAR too long, and I want my own kids to be healthy and safe, and his method prevents you from being able to tell if those might even remotely be the outcome.

I don't have direct experience with either the book or the courtship model (i.e. I didn't grow up with it), but it does seem to me that one of the main harms of this book is that it gives a person a set of rules to follow that prevent them from following their own instincts and feelings, so they might end up in a harmful situation. 

@chaotic life, I read your blog back when you are posting and it sounds like there have been some big changes since then. I really admire how strong, motivated and determined you are. I hope things are going well for you and your kids. 

[chaotic life]

I read your blog back when you are posting and it sounds like there have been some big changes since then. I really admire how strong, motivated and determined you are. I hope things are going well for you and your kids. 

I am free. My kids, not as much, but getting better every day. A long, hard fought for journey to freedom. The two things I got right were working on ME in those years (though there's still much to address now that I am finally out and can see much clearer) and fighting for my education, as I will finish next month finally.

And yes, Harris and his methods groom you to silence your own instincts. Plus, they set you up for young courtship and dating. I tell my children NEVER marry young. You cannot fully know yourself, and you definitely won't be mature enough in your instincts to know your partner well.

I was agonizingly slow to grasp that intent is irrelevant to abuse. Abusive behavior is abuse regardless of what intent you allow yourself to believe exists.

[Jasmar]

On July 27, 2016 at 10:39 AM, formergothardite said:

Yeah, it seems to me that he wants to spin this into another money making venture, not admit that his book was a pile of crap. 

I briefly had a crush on Josh Harris when his book first came out. 

If it's any consolation, my best friend is the same age as JH, and attended the same mega church the Harrises were a part of (until Gregg had his revelation from God and started his own church movement). She had a huge crush on Josh, her best friend had a huge crush on him, and pretty much all the other girls/young women in the high school and college group did too. She said he was incredibly charismatic and popular.

[Gertie]

5 hours ago, chaotic life said:

 

I am free. My kids, not as much, but getting better every day. A long, hard fought for journey to freedom. The two things I got right were working on ME in those years (though there's still much to address now that I am finally out and can see much clearer) and fighting for my education, as I will finish next month finally.

 

 

Congratulations! I wish you all the best.

 

[SpeakNow]

Joshua Harris admits that the advice in his book isn't perfect, and he wants feedback. People have been giving him some super honest feedback and using the hashtag #ikissedshamegoodbye. There's a slate article about it.

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/faithbased/2016/08/i_kissed_dating_goodbye_author_is_maybe_kind_of_sorry.html

[Terrie]

If he was serious, he would pull the book. By continuing to make money off it, he is trying to have it both ways and please everyone, but especially his bottom line. Seems like this latest is nothing more than publicity for him.