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Josh Harris rethinks his approach to courtship


Gertie

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...I just think people - myself included - it's so easy to latch on to a formula. You know, you do these things and you'll be great. You'll be safe and you'll be protected and you'll be whatever.

 

Thank you, Josh Harris, for summing up the philosophies of most of the families we talk about here on Free Jinger. Do these things and things will be great -- even though "these things" aren't proving to work. Don't let your kids make friends outside the family, no dating, no public school -- sometimes even no Christian school! And Bible all day, every day. But are any of these people happy? Most of them seem to just be "waiting on the Lord" to either bring by a potential spouse or zap them up to heaven. What's the point of life when you're really just waiting for death?

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19 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

Brothers Alex & Brett founded the Rebelution, which similarly pushed legalistic & bizarre purity-focused behavior through rallies & then their books. Here's an update on the twins.

Oh yes, the Rebelution...creators of the infamous MODESTY SURVEY that asked a bunch of Christian man-boys what articles of female clothing cause "lustful thoughts". The answer was...pretty much damn near anything a teen girl/adult woman wore or did could make some man-boy out there "stumble". Tight short skirts? Obviously THAT'S bad, but did you also know that you should wear a baggy sweatshirt with your college's logo across the chest? Or wearing a cross-body purse? And of course, the fault is always with the woman. 

 

Why am I not surprised that the makers of this "scientific survey" are related to the guy who kissed dating goodbye?

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On July 12, 2016 at 6:46 AM, bertnee said:

Oh yes, the Rebelution...creators of the infamous MODESTY SURVEY that asked a bunch of Christian man-boys what articles of female clothing cause "lustful thoughts". The answer was...pretty much damn near anything a teen girl/adult woman wore or did could make some man-boy out there "stumble". Tight short skirts? Obviously THAT'S bad, but did you also know that you should wear a baggy sweatshirt with your college's logo across the chest? Or wearing a cross-body purse? And of course, the fault is always with the woman

 

Why am I not surprised that the makers of this "scientific survey" are related to the guy who kissed dating goodbye?

I have sooooooo much resentment over the teenage tears I shed about clothing I wasn't allowed to wear. All my friends were in cute bikinis and i was in unflattering boob smashing one pieces. They got to wear gorgeous strapless gowns to homecoming and prom, and I had to argue just to get some ugly dress that looked like a floor length satin tank top. "It's not modest enough" was a broken record message from my father (the restrictions he placed on my mother were even worse). 

One day when I was bawling my mom sat me down and said "men have natural urges that lead them to sinful thoughts. It is our job as women to help them by covering up so they aren't led to temptation." 

THAT IS SUCH BULLSHIT! Not my fault I grew breasts, not my fault I had a toned read end, not my fault I enjoyed fashion and didn't want to wear sacks with arm holes for clothing. WHY SHOULD SOME MAN'S THOUGHTS BE MY RESPONSIBILITY???

 

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3 hours ago, LittleSpouseOnThePrairie said:

. WHY SHOULD SOME MAN'S THOUGHTS BE MY RESPONSIBILITY???

 

Hear, hear!

 

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3 hours ago, LittleSpouseOnThePrairie said:

I have sooooooo much resentment over the teenage tears I shed about clothing I wasn't allowed to wear. All my friends were in cute bikinis and i was in unflattering boob smashing one pieces. They got to wear gorgeous strapless gowns to homecoming and prom, and I had to argue just to get some ugly dress that looked like a floor length satin tank top. "It's not modest enough" was a broken record message from my father (the restrictions he placed on my mother were even worse). 

One day when I was bawling my mom sat me down and said "men have natural urges that lead them to sinful thoughts. It is our job as women to help them by covering up so they aren't led to temptation." 

THAT IS SUCH BULLSHIT! Not my fault I grew breasts, not my fault I had a toned read end, not my fault I enjoyed fashion and didn't want to wear sacks with arm holes for clothing. WHY SHOULD SOME MAN'S THOUGHTS BE MY RESPONSIBILITY???

 

So much this! And honestly, men shouldn't stand for it either. It may seem like a free pass, but a free pass to be considered a buffoon incapable of self-control is a blessing in a sense that a free copy of this book is a blessing. It's not.

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On ‎7‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 6:07 AM, LittleSpouseOnThePrairie said:

 

I went to a big public college and met a lot of fantastic guys, but every time I learned that they weren't virgins, like I was at the time, I wrote them off because based on the book's example they couldn't have been "the one." 

 

The woman Josh Harris married was not a virgin. She had a colorful past and was only abstinent after becoming a Christian. Did Josh not follow his own advice from the book? Or did he learn to actually forgive and forget in order to court his wife?

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On ‎7‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 7:24 AM, Loveday said:

My son included. :pb_confused:  He got involved with the youth group at our Catholic church in his late teens, more as a volunteer assistant than a member of the group itself.  My daughter was a member of the group as well. They both read the book, which was heavily promoted by the youth pastor,  but while my daughter took it with a huge grain of salt, my son latched on to it like it was an addendum to the Bible itself, no matter how we tried to explain that this wasn't necessarily the best way to find the right life partner. It affects him to this day, nearly ten years later. He has female friends, but he doesn't 'date' any of them, he's very formal and sort of stand-offish with them. It's like he just doesn't quite know how to relax and be himself around women. I blame Harris for a lot of that.

 

This is not directed specifically at your son, just some things I have been pondering. I wonder if sometimes we clamp onto a book or an idea like this to avoid dealing with the real issues. Very likely, the vast majority who latched onto this idea did so at their sincere desire to do what they were being told by Harris was pleasing to God or were forced to by their parents (sometimes those are the same thing!). However, I wonder if some who latched onto this idea might have unconsciously done so to avoid confronting fear of rejection, fear of sex, being asexual, or homosexual, or just a low sex drive. It sounds a lot less insane (maybe?) to say "I kissed dating goodbye" than to say, "I'm not even sure I am attracted to the opposite sex" or "I just really don't even know how to talk to them" or "I just really couldn't give a damn." I was reading Nancy Moser's "imaginative biography" of Elizabeth Barrett Browning and was fascinated by the fact that EBB didn't court/marry until she was my age and that only happened because Robert Browning refused to be put off by her excuses. EBB's father had (for God knows what reason!) forbid any of his children to marry. Rather than pining/rebelling as some of her many siblings, EBB (according to Nancy Moser anyway) sort of latched on to this and used it as an excuse not to deal with her social anxiety and near agoraphobia. No one who has read EBB's sonnets can say that she lacked romance and passion, but she completely disregarded that part of herself for 20+ years because it was easier to say, "Father won't allow me to marry" than to confront her fears. Off topic, but just some puzzlings that found your post interesting!

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10 hours ago, CyborgKin said:

Turns out our copy (2003) is on a bookshelf in my room, where it's been untouched in maybe ten years.  I don't remember much of what's actually in it.  Anyone want me to look for anything in particular?

Can you look for a few Patriarchal references masquerading as common knowledge/beliefs?  I don't think it will be hard to find a few hundred examples.

I find it deeply troubling that Alex Harris has graduated from Harvard Law and is now apparently clerking for a Circuit Court Judge.  I suppose he may have learned critical thinking at Harvard but there seems to be no change in his religious beliefs.  I don't like it when Fundies infiltrate government ...

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2 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

 

I find it deeply troubling that Alex Harris has graduated from Harvard Law and is now apparently clerking for a Circuit Court Judge.  I suppose he may have learned critical thinking at Harvard but there seems to be no change in his religious beliefs.  I don't like it when Fundies infiltrate government ...

I was thinking the same thing when I read the update on the twins.  I expect we'll hear of him running for office in the not too distant future.

It sounds like the other brother is caring for his wife full time.  Good for him, no snark there, but how are they supporting themselves?

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3 hours ago, kpmom said:

Good for him, no snark there, but how are they supporting themselves?

Royalties from their poisonous books?

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1 hour ago, Jasmar said:

Where does the other brother live?

The other twin? There are 6 boys. Alex is in Colorado and Brett is in New York. 

4 hours ago, kpmom said:

I was thinking the same thing when I read the update on the twins.  I expect we'll hear of him running for office in the not too distant future.

It sounds like the other brother is caring for his wife full time.  Good for him, no snark there, but how are they supporting themselves?

The i last heard he did have a job, and he's written another book with his father and they (father son)are co teaching an online parenting course. They were living with her parents because he couldn't care for her alone. She was very severely ill, bedridden and altered mentally. I think she has had some improvement, I funny know if there was a change in living of work arrangements since then. 

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On July 12, 2016 at 10:50 AM, Letgo said:

The woman Josh Harris married was not a virgin. She had a colorful past and was only abstinent after becoming a Christian. Did Josh not follow his own advice from the book? Or did he learn to actually forgive and forget in order to court his wife?

It's been almost 20 years since i read it but the biggest takeaway I got from the book is that you should be praying for your future spouse before you even meet them, and saving yourself for each other. There is one specific person God created just for you and you're supposed to not compromise, (apparently once you give away pieces of your heart you have less to love with). And because when one of you is not pure you bring painful baggage to the relationship. Really it's trying to prevent you from having a basis for comparison by limiting your experiences. I wasn't aware of his wife's past. I find that very interesting. I guess he forgave but I'll bet you he never forgot.

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A few times people have recommended I pray for my future wife.  The idea seems weird to me.  What if she doesn't exist?

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5 hours ago, CyborgKin said:

A few times people have recommended I pray for my future wife.  The idea seems weird to me.  What if she doesn't exist?

Pray for the zygote to flourish and wait 20 years maybe?  But interesting point: what if the FutureSpouse lives in a far-away place?  Ask God to provide a visa and travel tickets?  

Have these uber-fundy parents considered that if their major social interactions are at homeschooling conventions and the occasional mission tourism, and the SAH kids do just that...it might be darned hard to cross paths with FutureMate (and I don't think God uses UPS Ground delivery much)?

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9 hours ago, LittleSpouseOnThePrairie said:

It's been almost 20 years since i read it but the biggest takeaway I got from the book is that you should be praying for your future spouse before you even meet them, and saving yourself for each other. There is one specific person God created just for you and you're supposed to not compromise, 

How does this work if a spouse dies? Remarriage happens in fundy churches, n'est-ce pas? Has that second spouse been on ice, suspended animation, or what?

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1 hour ago, Four is Enough said:

How does this work if a spouse dies? Remarriage happens in fundy churches, n'est-ce pas? Has that second spouse been on ice, suspended animation, or what?

Well, the early church taught that widows shouldn't remarry (don't know about widowers). However, the church fathers would have rolled their eyes at the idea that there was a single person god made for everyone to get married to, since they thought as many people as possible should be celibates.

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Oh yes, the Rebelution...creators of the infamous MODESTY SURVEY that asked a bunch of Christian man-boys what articles of female clothing cause "lustful thoughts". The answer was...pretty much damn near anything a teen girl/adult woman wore or did could make some man-boy out there "stumble". Tight short skirts? Obviously THAT'S bad, but did you also know that you should wear a baggy sweatshirt with your college's logo across the chest? Or wearing a cross-body purse? And of course, the fault is always with the woman.


My favorite question was when they asked boys whether a lack of modesty and implictly "lustful thoughts" were an issue when it came to their sisters. It was disturbing how many boys admitted to being turned on/tempted by purportedly revealing clothing on their siblings. Freakin' gross. Just the idea of being "turned on" by my brother makes me want to vomit in my mouth, and not just because I'm gay. 

The Rebelution was/is a cesspool. 

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4 minutes ago, Cleopatra7 said:

Well, the early church taught that widows shouldn't remarry (don't know about widowers). However, the church fathers would have rolled their eyes at the idea that there was a single person god made for everyone to get married to, since they thought as many people as possible should be celibates.

There's nothing in the Bible about widowed folk not being able to re-marry. Paul did indicate that he encouraged younger widows to re-marry if the vows of celibacy don't work for them. Several times it is said in Paul's epistles that if a husband dies, she is free to re-marry "if he belongs to the Lord". In 1 Corinthians 7, he lays out advantages for those who remain single or single-again. But I don't think there are solid commands there. Yes, it's interesting the waves of history and extremes, huh? The only solid thing I could get is that divorcing to marry someone else is sin.

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39 minutes ago, Cleopatra7 said:

Well, the early church taught that widows shouldn't remarry (don't know about widowers). However, the church fathers would have rolled their eyes at the idea that there was a single person god made for everyone to get married to, since they thought as many people as possible should be celibates.

No I don't think so, but there were several strains of the "early church" and the Apostles didn't always agree.  See the interminable Pauline and Jamesian debate about salvation.  Also, Paul yapping on about the virtues of the celibate life has been oft misinterpreted.  He wasn't against remarriage, or even marriage, as far as I can see - and what @BullyJBG said.

There is a difference between saying widows don't have to remarry and forbidding them to do so.

Timothy at least took societal pressure off widows to remarry for financial reasons saying that it was the family's responsibility to help support her.  He went even further to say it was the church's responsibility to take care of older (over 60) deserving widows in the absence of other family members.  1 Timothy 5:3–10

 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

No I don't think so, but there were several strains of the "early church" and the Apostles didn't always agree.  See the interminable Pauline and Jamesian debate about salvation.  Also, Paul yapping on about the virtues of the celibate life has been oft misinterpreted.  He wasn't against remarriage, or even marriage, as far as I can see - and what @BullyJBG said.

There is a difference between saying widows don't have to remarry and forbidding them to do so.

Timothy at least took societal pressure off widows to remarry for financial reasons saying that it was the family's responsibility to help support her.  He went even further to say it was the church's responsibility to take care of older (over 60) deserving widows in the absence of other family members.  1 Timothy 5:3–10

 

 

 

I'm not talking about the Bible, but the groups of writers collectively known as the Church Fathers, guys like Jerome, Ambrose of Milan, Gregory the Great, Augustine of Hippo, Tertullian, Origen, Clement of Alexandria, Justin Martyr, etc. When you look at early Christianity (ie until the fifth or sixth century or so), there's definitely a strain that said widows shouldn't marry. In fact, the widows and consecrated virgins of antiquity were the forerunners of nuns in many ways. If you want to learn more about this subject, I would suggest you read "Body and Society : Men, Women, and Sexual Renunciation in Early Christianity" by Peter Brown, as well as the works of the church fathers themselves , which are in the public domain.

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7 minutes ago, Cleopatra7 said:

I'm not talking about the Bible, but the groups of writers collectively known as the Church Fathers, guys like Jerome, Ambrose of Milan, Gregory the Great, Augustine of Hippo, Tertullian, Origen, Clement of Alexandria, Justin Martyr, etc. When you look at early Christianity (ie until the fifth or sixth century or so), there's definitely a strain that said widows shouldn't marry. In fact, the widows and consecrated virgins of antiquity were the forerunners of nuns in many ways. If you want to learn more about this subject, I would suggest you read "Body and Society : Men, Women, and Sexual Renunciation in Early Christianity" by Peter Brown, as well as the works of the church fathers themselves , which are in the public domain.

Oh, OK.  I thought you were talking about Biblical references and justifications not the Church Father stuff.  I tend to think of Early Church as Apostolic Age and the Ante-Nicene Period - pre CE 325 anyway.

Read the book, thanks. It is good.  I'm always amazed by how fast Patriarchal thoughts invaded and corrupted Jesus' actual teachings, which (as far as we can tell given the various sources) were pretty consistently egalitarian towards women.

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2 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

Jerome, Ambrose of Milan, Gregory the Great, Augustine of Hippo, Tertullian, Origen, Clement of Alexandria, Justin Martyr, etc.

I don't know about the others, but the more I learn about Augustine (of Hippo? That is *the* Augustine, or isn't it?), the more obvious his misogyny seems to me.

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14 minutes ago, refugee said:

I don't know about the others, but the more I learn about Augustine (of Hippo? That is *the* Augustine, or isn't it?), the more obvious his misogyny seems to me.

There are two Augustines; Augustine of Hippo was the famous North African theologian who wrote "Confessions" and "City of God" whereas Augustine of Canterbury was the "Apostle to the English" and regarded as the founder of the English Church. Augustine of Hippo's "Literal Interpretation of Genesis" has an immortal passage where he asks why God created Eve for Adam, when it would have been much more useful for Adam to have a male friend who would be an equal for him (the answer is procreation, but beyond that, it doesn't seem like Augustine though Eve would be of much use for Adam). I guess this shouldn't surprise anyone, since in his "Confessions" Augustine goes on and on about his male friends like Alpyius but doesn't even bother to give the mother of his son whom he lived with in a common law marriage a name.

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9 hours ago, samira_catlover said:

Pray for the zygote to flourish and wait 20 years maybe?  But interesting point: what if the FutureSpouse lives in a far-away place?  Ask God to provide a visa and travel tickets?  

Have these uber-fundy parents considered that if their major social interactions are at homeschooling conventions and the occasional mission tourism, and the SAH kids do just that...it might be darned hard to cross paths with FutureMate (and I don't think God uses UPS Ground delivery much)?

That's not what I meant, and you made it even creepier.  20 is a bit young for me now, let alone in 20 years.  I meant that there might be no one ever.  For all I know, I could randomly die any time.  I suppose I could pray for "my hypothetical future wife, if I'm to be blessed with one".  Eh, surely anyone otherwise elegible is already married.  I see no point in waiting for me.  I'm no catch.

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