Josh Harris rethinks his approach to courtship

[quiversR4hunting]

48 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

But have you listened to/watched EWTN--either radio or television???

yes and unfortunately most of those are lay people spouting off. The priests are much more realistic, even the ones that have a spot on the radio stations. The ones I have heard are much more forgiving and see shades of grey than the radio hosts.

 One radio host used to be an evangelical pastor. I can only listen to him when he has a guest that is far more intelligent than himself.

I also don't see the uber conservatives on EWTN, etc taking over the entire Catholic church. The church is so big and has allowed independent thought for too long to put the cat back in the bag. (Which I am glad.)

 

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

On critical thinking:  I believe that some people who lack critical thinking skills or who tend to think in black and white are attracted to cult thinking in the first place.  Cult techniques then suppress the ability to question or think critically.

Well said Palimpsest!

[louisa05]

4 minutes ago, quiversR4hunting said:

yes and unfortunately most of those are lay people spouting off. The priests are much more realistic, even the ones that have a spot on the radio stations. The ones I have heard are much more forgiving and see shades of grey than the radios hosts.

 One radio host used to be an evangelical pastor. I can only listen to him when he has a guest that is far more intelligent than himself.

I also don't see the uber conservatives on EWTN, etc taking over the entire Catholic church. The church is so big and has allowed independent thought for too long to put the cat back in the bag. (Which I am glad.)

 

 

And I didn't say they were going to. Didn't say that at all. I just said that Catholic media, minus the Jesuits (i.e. America magazine et al) is generally very conservative. We are not disagreeing on anything, yet you keep explaining it to me. 

A few local priests that get air time here are extremely conservative as well. Unfortunately, one of them is currently the temporary administrator of my parish. We are praying fervently for our regular priest to be able to return soon! 

[Palimpsest]

1 minute ago, AmazonGrace said:

He even has the amazon link to buy the book in the feedback section... Look what I said in this book might be totally stupid and may have hurt many people... But if you didn't read it yet, buy it now!

A guy living his life backwards has to pay for seminary after all. 

Some of the 5 star Amazon reviews are enough to make a cat puke.  I think we need a new review pointing out that he is intending to revise the book because he realizes it has hurt people.

I don't review books unless I've actually read the whole thing but if anyone else has read it ...

 

[quiversR4hunting]

24 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

And I didn't say they were going to. Didn't say that at all. I just said that Catholic media

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I didn't think you said that, I was just expounding and my thought got lost in translation. I agree the catholic media is not doing Catholic's any favors.

I guess the one thing we should be thankful for is the Catholic media doesn't have a huge following....yet. I hope it doesn't increase while some of these hosts are still uber conservative.

24 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

Unfortunately, one of them is currently the temporary administrator of my parish. We are praying fervently for our regular priest to be able to return soon! 

That stinks. The parish near our family cottage had an uber conservative priest. In one summer (we are at that parish about 6 times during the summer) we heard no less than 2 sermons on abortion. I stopped going to that church*, told my parents I will gladly go to a different catholic church but this fire and brimstone talk every time we go and then the abortion lecture on top of it, too much to handle. I flat out told my parents I feel bad for any person that has helped pay for or had an abortion in that parish because if they went to confession after his sermons I think he would banish them to hell. He got transferred and did a year as a military Chaplin- overseas in a war zone. I hear he has loosened up some after that tour.

*we started going to a neighboring town church and love the priest. He always has good sermons, they are always less than 10 minutes, I call it listen quick because what he says in 5 to 10 minutes is always spot on. His sermons are always concise and to the point. He retires in 2 years, that will be a sad day.

[hoipolloi]

2 hours ago, Loveday said:

 Now he's in graduate school, in his late 20s, and still isn't dating. I never bring up the subject, though, because hard though it is,  I try to be a very non-interfering mom. 

 

And you are a wise mom.

Voice of experience here: as long as you're both talking with each other in normal & loving ways and there aren't other major problems (e.g., substance abuse), there's no need to ask things like "are you dating anyone," "are you and X going to get married," or "are you and X going to have kids." They'll do what they do and because they love you & talk to you, they'll tell you about what they do.

[refugee]

5 hours ago, quiversR4hunting said:

Wait a minute, he was 21 when he wrote that book?  

So since 1997 adults, who got married the dating way, took advice from a greenhorn about how their own kids should date and marry? Fundies really are looking for the right formula for holiness. Everytime I think I am understanding fundie "logic" a new bit of information comes my way and hits me upside the head like Redd's Apple Ale.

His parents were skilled communicators (I say "were," but actually his father is still around. His mom died some years back) and I think he inherited some of the gift of gab from them. We heard him on a high school panel in a homeschool workshop, and he was poised, articulate, sincere, and convincing. Parents of younger children (like ourselves, and I heard plenty afterward from other parents who'd been listening), hearing him (and the others) speak, had hopes of completely avoiding the "teenage rebellion" that society - or maybe it was the homeschool keynote speakers at various conferences, come to think of it - told them was inevitable.

Another factor - we young parents knew how much we'd messed up our lives in our teens. We were seeking some method that would help us guide our kids safely through adolescence into adulthood. Too bad we weren't so hot at critical thinking... (As in -- this is a *teenager*! Instead of that somehow giving him magical credibility, it should have given us pause, as in "Yeah, it *sounds* good but I wonder what kind of fruit we'll see 20 years from now...?")

But we listened to persuasive voices. (Jonathan Lindvall, anyone? Preaching on how to raise children to godly adulthood, when his oldest had not yet hit their teens?) It was easier to accept the "advice" they gave, than to think for ourselves.

3 hours ago, Gossamer1 said:

They need a formula because they lack the critical thinking skills to make decisions on their own.

So true. My spouse and I grew up under controlling (unbelievers, but still very controlling) parents. It took us years - decades - to learn to think for ourselves.

ETA: And speaking of controlling parents - does anyone else remember the "planner" that Gregg and Sono Harris sold for awhile. Incredible nitpicky detail, covering everything from homeschool records to how often to change the bedsheets.

[refugee]

2 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Josh Harris is (or was) a product of the Sovereign Grace Church movement (definitely elements of cult.)

But before Sovereign Grace, he was a product of his parents' upbringing. And from what I understand, they were very much into planning, scheduling, documenting, organizing, controlling, and selling their lifestyle model.

Josh's father started a church, which grew into a number of churches, with a foundation of patriarchal family structure along with homeschooling. They were the essence of "Sovereign Grace" even before Mahaney came along.

[ETA: It bothers me to see all the SGM blame to go to Mahaney. I suspect Gregg Harris is in for his share in helping lay the foundation for the abuse that followed. I have never seen any kind of public retraction from Gregg. He's just gotten quiet, sort of dropped out of the speaking circuit, so far as I know. But some of his kids have come up with a new "godly family" seminar series - sometimes I get their emails. Don't know what it contains, and don't know if he's actively involved. FWIW.]

You can take all this with however many grains of salt you wish to apply. We were never a part of that group - we were managing quite well (not) in our own cultish church and spouse didn't want to change to the Harrises' church because it was too controlling.

[hoipolloi]

What Joshua Harris fails to acknowledge or mention in the NPR interview & elsewhere is that his books were part and parcel of a system from which he benefitted enormously and in which he played a significant leadership role. He may have left Sovereign Grace, but he's still rocking the CJ Mahaney bald head combined with the Mark Driscoll hipster look.

Then, there's his family.

Father Gregg Harris has "retired" from being a pastor but peddles his own homeschooling + manly men + parenting shticks.

Brothers Alex & Brett founded the Rebelution, which similarly pushed legalistic & bizarre purity-focused behavior through rallies & then their books. Here's an update on the twins.

No word on what Josh's sister is doing (his mother died of cancer several years ago), but one wonders if she has been given the opportunity to go to college or do what she thinks is best for herself?

Sorry, Josh. You're saying too little, way too late. You have yet to deal with your role in the leadership of Sovereign Grace while cases of child abuse were actively suppressed by that same leadership.

 

[Palimpsest]

5 minutes ago, refugee said:

But before Sovereign Grace, he was a product of his parents' upbringing. And from what I understand, they were very much into planning, scheduling, documenting, organizing, controlling, and selling their lifestyle model.

Josh's father started a church, which grew into a number of churches, with a foundation of patriarchal family structure along with homeschooling. They were the essence of "Sovereign Grace" even before Mahaney came along.

You can take all this with however many grains of salt you wish to apply. We were never a part of that group - we were managing quite well (not) in our own cultish church and spouse didn't want to change to the Harris's church because it was too controlling.

Yes I know.  Gregg and Sono were huge in the Christian homeschooling movement.  I should have made it much clearer that I regard Josh Harris as very much second generation.  He interned and then glommed on to Sovereign Grace later as a young adult.

@hoipolloi He also claims to have been sexually abused himself as a child, BTW.  Yet another article:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2013/may/as-appeal-is-announced-in-sovereign-grace-case-joshua.html

He may indeed be rethinking everything - but he comes across as hypocritical and money-grubbing because he is still promoting his old books.

[hoipolloi]

Look, I'm a parent and, yes, there were times during our kid's adolescence when I wondered whether we'd both emerge from it alive or unharmed. I get that parents desperately want guarantees that everything will be all right.

You need to accept the reality that THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES IN PARENTING. This probably requires engaging the critical thinking part of one's brain. 

In other words, anyone who offers you parenting guarantees in the form of formulae, how-to's, or biblical injunctions is a fucking liar, whether it's Josh Harris or Michael Pearl. End of story.

[Closed Womb]

2 hours ago, louisa05 said:

Formulas are the stuff of evangelical life. This book actually made courtship a popular model in evangelical churches--worlds where women can have jobs and wear pants. 

(snip)

 

Word to the bolded!

I went to fundie light churches in the 1990's and someone gave me this book to read.  That someone was a single/divorce female doctor.  I had a working relationship with her and was a few years younger.  Both of us were professional women, educated, single, pants wearing, well under 40, living alone, traveling alone, etc. 

Although neither of us were virgins, she thought that I should adopt this book as a guide book.  Presumably it applied to me and not her because I was never married?  Anyway, I laughed it off.  But there was a part in there that was very damaging to me (or so I thought): the idea that God wouldn't give you someone that you were not attracted to.  With the no kissing, etc, men were (rightly) concerned that they wouldn't find out about a lack of chemistry until it was too late.  Well, this flippant "God's got it all taken care of" attitude that Harris offered in his book kind of got turned into "God is only interested in you having the ideal person, the BEST" (that is, everything you are physically attracted to.)

With church singles groups being about 3:1::women:men in Florida in the 90's, it pretty much turned into women having to look perfect in order to be in the running for a "godly" mate.  Since any guy that's not church going wasn't "good enough" (unequally yoked), basically any not-beautiful Christian girl (such as myself) was both single and sad --- AND it was usually "her fault" because there had to be something she was doing to keep God from blessing her (if all else failed, she just wanted it too much!  If she would just concentrate on God more, rather than all these other natural longings like -- oh, I don't know, companionship, intimacy, etc -- maybe God would bless her.)

I'm still bitter.  I can't believe I hated myself all those years because Christian a-hole men didn't see me as pretty. 

(Although, I stopped going to church, reevaluated my beliefs, eventually met and married an awesome man and found myself thankful for never meeting a "godly" guy with whom I was "equally yoked."  But for his untimely death, this would have a happy ending.)      

I'm glad Harris is starting to back off, which would be the point of this post if I hadn't gone on a rant...

[Palimpsest]

@hoipolloi - Preach it, sister!

It would be nice to think Josh Harris is making his way out of the trough - but he isn't there yet.

Baby steps?

 

[PennySycamore]

@louisa05, we used to have in the non-fundie SB church of my youth a teenage girl that went forward every week.  It's unfortunate that by the time the church was no longer pastored by a guy who went on the teach psych at Anderson Jr College, Dr Mandrell.  He would have asked her what was going on in her life that made her feel so worthless.  Maybe our pastor, the Reverend Dukes did, but I don't know.  I know that the a**hole that followed Dukes as pastor would not have though.

[samira_catlover]

OK, haven't read this book  yet (anybody got a copy to sell to a rehomer?) and am not that familiar with the main church---but wasn't this guy this a Big Thing in the Purity Culture stuff, about not giving your heart away (before you're dead, anyway) or not letting people take a drink out of your tobacco spit cup or something or purity balls (are they anything like rum balls?--anyone have a recipe)?

Also, partial hijack vs. the Duggar stuff: iIIRC, in the girls' book, there was something about them getting purity rings. Can anyone provide a link or a synopsis of how the D-clan coped with that in the aftermath of the molestations?  (NO, know damned well it wasn't the fault of the girls at all!----but think I'd heard something somewhere about some girls who had been molested or raped and were freaking out because they weren't "pure" any more.)

[Anonymousguest]

I was in Gregg Harris's church, which no longer exists. There are still a few of the church plants left, but they are no longer a single entity and are independent churches now and have no connection to Gregg. 

SGM predates Gregg's Household of Faith. Josh was already gone to MD to work for Mahaney when Gregg started his church. I believe they were part of the Portland City Bible mega church when Josh was young.  Josh is much older than his next brother (his youngest brother is 25yrs younger), his parents didn't start homeschooling/home churching/patriarchal (though they will say complementarian)/family integrated church, etc until he was older. What was passed on was his parents charisma and entrepreneurial attitude. The Harrises were not followers, both Gregg and Sono have (had) strong persuasive personalities and are excellent public speakers. 

Gregg currently runs A terrarium shop in Portland, and is working with Brett (one of the twins) on an online parenting program called Raising Kids to do Hard Things. I think he also writes an opinion column for a blog. He has definitely changed in the past few years since Sono's death. Much less arrogant. 

[Loveday]

3 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

And you are a wise mom.

Voice of experience here: as long as you're both talking with each other in normal & loving ways and there aren't other major problems (e.g., substance abuse), there's no need to ask things like "are you dating anyone," "are you and X going to get married," or "are you and X going to have kids." They'll do what they do and because they love you & talk to you, they'll tell you about what they do.

Wish I could upvote this post more than once, especially the bolded bit!  It's funny, I learned this from my mother. Not because she modeled this behavior, but because she didn't. She used to drive me nuts asking me questions like this. Now she asks me the same questions about my kids! 

[CyborgKin]

I think this book has partly contributed to me still being single at 30.  I have the ingrained idea that meeting a potential partner is something that happens in a church/family group context, but rarely meet any new people in those contexts.

[snarkopolis]

7 hours ago, louisa05 said:

Catholics in general, yes. But have you listened to/watched EWTN--either radio or television??? They aren't preaching against drinking, but they do tend toward very conservative positions about a lot of things--you can hear modesty preaching, severely anti-gay preaching (don't associate with gay people anywhere ever), homeschooling advocates (even their own parish schools might corrupt their children because the other kids might not be the right kind of Catholics), lay people advising people on the evils of taking their children to weddings if they cannot confirm that the couple are chaste virgins...a lot of that nonsense. And, honestly, I personally know very few Catholics who subscribe to those sorts of thinking--just as you say. But a lot of the Catholic media out there does not reflect that. Pop over to Patheos Catholic for examples or turn on EWTN or Catholic radio stations affiliated with them. 

My comment specifically referred to Catholic media not Catholics in general. 

Here's a secret. Not too many Catholics watch EWTN. Except when we want to watch mass because we missed mass (and watching equates going...I hope)

7 hours ago, louisa05 said:

 

 

[louisa05]

17 minutes ago, snarkopolis said:

Here's a secret. Not too many Catholics watch EWTN. Except when we want to watch mass because we missed mass (and watching equates going...I hope)

 

And I didn't say they did. 

All I said was that I was surprised a priest on EWTN radio immediately and forcefully vetoed courtship and endorsed dating because they are, in general, very conservative. EWTN. Not Catholics. 

Believe me. I know. I'm a card carrying liberal and also Catholic. I was educated in Catholic schools in the most conservative diocese in America (one Cardinal Ratzinger was known to recommend it to conservative Americans looking for a place to go...I am not kidding) by nuns committed to social justice and bored with abortion protests. 

I never said anywhere in this thread or anywhere else that a) all Catholics are conservative or b ) all Catholics watch EWTN. 

I never even came close to saying either of those things. I have never even thought either of those things. I find both of those premises quite faulty. Just as faulty as everyone is telling me they are. 

[desertvixen]

EWTN is just nuts.  I agree that they are one of the loudest voices, though.

I'll take the read and review hit for the team.  Does anyone know if there is a significant difference between the 1997 version and the 2012 version that I'm seeing on Amazon?

[desertvixen]

I have the 1997 version of the book on its way from PaperBack Swap - I'll report when finished.

[refugee]

9 hours ago, Anonymousguest said:

I was in Gregg Harris's church, which no longer exists. There are still a few of the church plants left, but they are no longer a single entity and are independent churches now and have no connection to Gregg. 

SGM predates Gregg's Household of Faith. Josh was already gone to MD to work for Mahaney when Gregg started his church. I believe they were part of the Portland City Bible mega church when Josh was young.  Josh is much older than his next brother (his youngest brother is 25yrs younger), his parents didn't start homeschooling/home churching/patriarchal (though they will say complementarian)/family integrated church, etc until he was older. What was passed on was his parents charisma and entrepreneurial attitude. The Harrises were not followers, both Gregg and Sono have (had) strong persuasive personalities and are excellent public speakers. 

Gregg currently runs A terrarium shop in Portland, and is working with Brett (one of the twins) on an online parenting program called Raising Kids to do Hard Things. I think he also writes an opinion column for a blog. He has definitely changed in the past few years since Sono's death. Much less arrogant. 

Thanks for correcting my mistakes. I thought HHoF (or was it HoF?) came before SGM, but you say SGM was there first. When did HHoF associate with SGM, then - or did they not become a part of that "denomination" and I have a mistaken impression?

I hadn't remembered that Josh had left to intern for Mahaney before his father started his own church. But of course, we only saw the Harrises at the homeschool conferences where they were speaking. 

[Anonymousguest]

3 minutes ago, refugee said:

Thanks for correcting my mistakes. I thought HHF came before SGM, but you say SGM was there first. When did HHF associate with SGM, then - or did they not become a part of that "denomination" and I have a mistaken impression?

I hadn't remembered that Josh had left to intern for Mahaney before his father started his own church. But of course, we only saw the Harrises at the homeschool conferences where they were speaking. 

Sovereign Grace started sometime in the early 80s. I think Josh started there in 97, the same year ikdg was published. Gregg started a Bible study/home church in his home in 1998, it met the first time as an official church some time in 1999. I think we first attended in 2002.

It was never linked in any way with SGM, other than both being reformed doctrine. Gregg and another of his elders had grandiose ideas of HOFCC becoming a denomination, and several churches were planted in those early years. Gregg had a falling out with the leadership of his church and there was a church split, and around that time the"cluster" was divided and each became separate. Gregg and the other elder still believed in the movement (reformed family integrated) and started the household of faith fellowship of churches, similar to the SGM "family" of churches. Churches can take the HOF name and have some accountability and camaraderie (joint leadership retreats, help with church planting, etc). It did well at first, but without Gregg doing the homeschooling circuit any more there just wasn't the draw to the church. The original Gresham church closed a few years ago. The plants are all still around, with varying degrees of vibrancy. 

[refugee]

Thanks @Anonymousguest. Appreciate you taking the time to explain the background.

[CyborgKin]

Turns out our copy (2003) is on a bookshelf in my room, where it's been untouched in maybe ten years.  I don't remember much of what's actually in it.  Anyone want me to look for anything in particular?