Bontragers and books

[klynn]

The "Be in submission to your husband" part...I can't.  Are these people high on something?  I can't even imagine asking my husband for permission to do something.  I mean, I respect my hubby, and his wishes, but I certainly do NOT ask for permission to do things.  I'd ask if he minded if me and our kid went away for the weekend, or something like that, but that's more out of respect for him than needing him to give me permission.  Plus, it's way easier to beg for forgiveness than ask permission...like that time we got a kitten ;)

[Alisamer]

I am so glad my mom never restricted my reading. She was proud that I read voraciously, and made sure we went to the library frequently. Though I think I did probably read some things a little younger than I should have. I can't imagine growing up with so many limits, how boring must life be? Especially for kids who learn well from reading. My sister once passed a college-level Chinese history class based largely on having read some romance novels that covered much of what was in the class!

And the "be in submission part"... I don't think I'd do well at that. Especially after last weekend. My middle sister and I decided over the course of about 15 minutes last Friday that we were going to jump in the car and drive to Florida after work, just because we could. My youngest sister is married, and didn't go because she thought her husband would be mad. I hope if I ever get married it's to someone whose response to something like that would be either "give me 20 minutes to pack" or "have a great time"! I understand of course checking with a spouse and making sure everyone's happy, but giving over the responsibility for everything to one person? That sounds like a terrible idea.

[Leftitinmysnood]

I'm beginning to be of the opinion that reading broadly is one of the very few ways to turn out a homeschooler who functions in the real world. You learn so much about people and their motivations from reading.

 My kids are allowed to read broadly. Mr. Snood told the kids they could read any book we owned that interested them. If there weren't interested, it meant they weren't old enough for it. 11 year old went straight for The Rise of the Third Reich.

[princessmahina]

9 hours ago, Alisamer said:

I am so glad my mom never restricted my reading. She was proud that I read voraciously, and made sure we went to the library frequently. Though I think I did probably read some things a little younger than I should have. I can't imagine growing up with so many limits, how boring must life be? Especially for kids who learn well from reading. My sister once passed a college-level Chinese history class based largely on having read some romance novels that covered much of what was in the class!

And the "be in submission part"... I don't think I'd do well at that. Especially after last weekend. My middle sister and I decided over the course of about 15 minutes last Friday that we were going to jump in the car and drive to Florida after work, just because we could. My youngest sister is married, and didn't go because she thought her husband would be mad. I hope if I ever get married it's to someone whose response to something like that would be either "give me 20 minutes to pack" or "have a great time"! I understand of course checking with a spouse and making sure everyone's happy, but giving over the responsibility for everything to one person? That sounds like a terrible idea.

So I can't bold or edit on my phone (SO not used to having to access FJ only on my phone), but I also had a lot of help from romance novels in my history classes (as a history major lol). I'll never tell my professors that bodice rippers stuck in my head more than their lectures. 

[Four is Enough]

The Secret Garden! The Horrors! Lying! Snooping around! Sneaking around! Learning to speak in other languages! Gluttony! Lying! OMG! Children in disobedience to authority! Burn it!

 

TSG is one of my all time favorite books. I never really saw the lying and sneaking around until I started looking at it with a fundy world view... they narrow everything down to a few things. Obedience and sex. 

[ADoyle90815]

18 hours ago, Alisamer said:

I am so glad my mom never restricted my reading. She was proud that I read voraciously, and made sure we went to the library frequently. Though I think I did probably read some things a little younger than I should have. I can't imagine growing up with so many limits, how boring must life be? Especially for kids who learn well from reading. My sister once passed a college-level Chinese history class based largely on having read some romance novels that covered much of what was in the class!

And the "be in submission part"... I don't think I'd do well at that. Especially after last weekend. My middle sister and I decided over the course of about 15 minutes last Friday that we were going to jump in the car and drive to Florida after work, just because we could. My youngest sister is married, and didn't go because she thought her husband would be mad. I hope if I ever get married it's to someone whose response to something like that would be either "give me 20 minutes to pack" or "have a great time"! I understand of course checking with a spouse and making sure everyone's happy, but giving over the responsibility for everything to one person? That sounds like a terrible idea.

I also consider myself lucky to have grown up where I was allowed to read anything I wanted. As for the submissive thing, I'm lucky as well since if I started asking my fiancee's permission before doing anything, he'd be taking me in to get a mental health evaluation because that's not the type of partner he wants. My niece is also allowed to read anything, and she recently said that she loves learning, which is not the thing fundies want. To a fundie, reading gets children interested in the outside world, and they might find out that it's not as evil as they want them to believe. A child that thinks for themselves and loves learning isn't easily controlled.

[polecat]

10 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

The Secret Garden! The Horrors! Lying! Snooping around! Sneaking around! Learning to speak in other languages! Gluttony! Lying! OMG! Children in disobedience to authority! Burn it!

 

TSG is one of my all time favorite books. I never really saw the lying and sneaking around until I started looking at it with a fundy world view... they narrow everything down to a few things. Obedience and sex. 

 

We should talk about how Mary was always hanging out with Dickon (a much older boy!!! SHOCK!) and Colin without ANY kind of a chaperone, too. So disobedience AND sex all in one book! 

Okay, so maybe no sex, but sometimes you've gotta read between the lines.

(I loved that book too.)

[mango_fandango]

We criticise Erika Shupe a lot, but she does let her kids read a wider variety of books than many fundies. She may restrict the amount of time her eldest two get to read (only a couple of hours at weekends) but at least it happens. In a photo from last summer, Melanie was reading The Hobbit. They also have a lot of unabridged books on CD, including The Secret Garden, Number the Stars and so on. Of course there are restrictions eg no romance novels and absolutely no Harry Potter, but at least she allows some books.

She did also use Sonlight for the eldest two, but switched when there were more kids who were of homeschool age. (They use Alpha Omega Press/Switched on Schoolhouse now, IIRC.)

[CyborgKin]

I remember really enjoying the Swallows and Amazons books, by Arthur Ransom as a kid.  They're about children who went off on adventures in boats, often camping out for weeks without much in the way of supervision.

 

*googles*

Ahhhhh they're all available as audiobooks on Audible, well I guess I know where my next year of book credits is going...

[ALM7]

Back in the mid-60's, one of my favorite books was My Side of the Mountain, by Jean Craighead George.  After reading it many times, my 10ish year-old self wanted to go "off grid" lol.  To this day, I remember details of that book.

[teachergirl]

One of my proudest moments as a teacher was realizing I had about 5 of out the 10 most banned books in my classroom.  I also stood up to my admin, who was a reading specialist?? who told me to take the Harry Potters off my shelf because it might "offend" someone. I quietly refused.  Don't like them, don't read them but don't restrict others from reading them.  I also did a small group of The Giver with a very high fourth grade group.  I struggled with that but then realized the conversations it brought up were worth more than any uncomfortable moments I had.  Reading is so powerful.  These fundies faith is so weak that they have to restrict everything their children come into contact with.

[CyborgKin]

I also really loved (okay, love) The Wind in the Willows.  Isaac Botkin seems to like it enough to compare Trump to Mr Toad http://isaacbotkin.com/2016/01/the-incredible-mr-trump/

heh.

[Shouldabeenacowboy]

Speaking of Botkins...I was wondering what ever happened to the Botkin sisters, and snooped around Facebook a bit. I am not friends with either (nor I plan to request their friendship!) so my comments are strictly based on what is publicly visible. 

Anna Sofia's FB has not been updated in a while (since sometimes in 2015) but Elizabeth seems to be on and posting fairly regularly. In her latest posts, she was very vocal about being in favor of Brexit - like Isaac - so much so that someone commented "do you even understand the issue enough to comment?" (which, honestly, I have my doubts that she does). 

I recall they made that "documentary" in the past about SAHDs and seemed to be somewhat held up as example to praise in that world. I can't help but wonder what goes on in their head given they are in their 30s and unmarried. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but in their world where they think women at 25 are old maids, it must be tragic. I always thought the problem there is the dad - he'll never "let them go". 

[PennySycamore]

On July 13, 2016 at 4:16 AM, CyborgKin said:

I also really loved (okay, love) The Wind in the Willows.  Isaac Botkin seems to like it enough to compare Trump to Mr Toad http://isaacbotkin.com/2016/01/the-incredible-mr-trump/

heh.

Dr Fitzhugh Dotson quoted AA Milne in his book How to Parent  when talking about The Wind in the Willows:  

Quote

One does not about The Wind in the Willows. The young man gives it to the girl with whom he is in love, and if she does not like it, asks her to return his letters.  The  older man tries it on his nephew and alters his will accordingly. The book is a test of character. We can't criticize it because it is criticizing us.

How to Parent has a great list of wonderful kids books, even though it was written in the late 60s.  I still have my copy on the bookshelf.  

[Chocolatedefrauded]

I've been letting my daughter, who is going into 7th grade, read anything she wants. She is not interested in boys and is rather prudish, to be honest. She recently started reading the Shadow Hunters books. I was a little concerned because she is young for her age so I decided to read them at the same time, so we could talk about anything that comes up. Trouble is she reads 150 pages a day at summer camp & now is way ahead of me. I doubt fundies would try this approach because they don't have time. Or trust their children in any way.

[apandaaries]

I'm going to use this thread as an excuse to brag about my offspring.  She's going into 7th grade in the fall and just finished the first Game of Thrones book (told her she had to read it if she wanted to watch it -- totally worked).   I'm using this to discuss medieval history, politics, and gender relations, etc. -- we're making it educational...sort of.

Also, for those who are interested in connections between literacy and life paths, here is an excellent essay from Neil Gaiman on the importance of reading, libraries, and daydreaming: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/oct/15/neil-gaiman-future-libraries-reading-daydreaming

[desertvixen]

@Chocolatedefrauded and @amandaaries, I salute both of you.

[Rachel333]

You guys should check out Lady Bibliophile if you haven't before. We've talked about her on here before.

I'll quote @Palimpsest from an old thread I just found via google. It's a great summary of Lady Bibliophile.

Quote

My Lady Bibliophile's faith is so strong that she can read quite widely and withstand the evil in secular novels. Her ministry is to read books, review and rate them so that other young ladies are not corrupted by sex, violence, feminism, or any un-biblical and ungodly ideas. She also skips whole sections that might be too challenging for her nice mind and redacts as she reads if she comes across what she calls "language" -- just like you. She even needed to edit Dickens books for naughty words.

I adore Lady Bibliophile because she rarely fails to make me laugh my socks off with her book reviews. It's rather sad because she isn't stupid, but her narrow outlook, refusal to stretch her boundaries and utter sanctimoniousness make her seem a complete dolt. I really want to send her to college and shock her out of her pious little rut. She is wasting quite a good book-loving mind -- and that frustrates me.

 

[December]

3 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

You guys should check out Lady Bibliophile if you haven't before. We've talked about her on here before.

There are always multiple ways to interpret a book, but I'm pretty sure hers are fairly uncommon! 

As for fundies and books in general... when a person's ideas of "acceptable" books or authors can be counted in full on your fingers and toes, that's not a good sign! If someone's worldview can be broken apart by ideas in a children's book, maybe that's a reason to reevaluate that worldview. And if a kid wants to read a book that contains questionable content, wouldn't reading it with the child and providing context be enough to keep them on the "right" track if your own ideas have actual merit? I guess they put the reading restrictions/warnings in place for a reason.

[nastyhobbitses]

On 7/9/2016 at 7:41 AM, Leftitinmysnood said:

For the fundies we hung out with, Curious George would be out because he disobeyed and the Bernstein Bears talk and keep house and that's a lie. God didn't design bears to do that.  Of course, the family with the most liberal book policy also edited out unhappiness (not grateful), temptation to do wrong, lying, made clothing more modest in the illustrations, and stapled together whole chapters sometimes. I got chewed out by a mom once for letting her kids read a book where the delivery man lied to a kid so she wouldn't be tempted to open her present before Christmas. I read voraciously every book I could get my hands on, sneaking Judy Blume books and A Tree Grows in Brooklyn behind my mom's back. 

The only book censorship my parents ever did was when my dad used to read aloud to me before bed, and he refused to read a part of Little House on the Prairie where Pa sings an almost absurdly racist folk song. I was reading the page along with him, so I knew what was there, but he simply said, "this is a part where Pa sings something very, very racist, and I don't want to say those words because they're hurtful. In the time this happened, people thought it was OK to think like that, but not anymore." Other than that, my parents pretty much let me read whatever the hell I wanted. Though it did get awkward when I was 11 and read a historical fiction novel that had the main female character's rape as a plot point, and I asked my science teacher what a hymen was and why it was bad if it was broken.

I think that a lot of these fundies know that books are liberating. They expose children to other worlds, other worldviews, but most of all, possibility. Books make you form your own thoughts about things. They're powerful stuff. I think my favorite story of the power of reading was about a Mauritanian man who grew up very well-off; in Mauritania, slavery is still a really serious problem, and many rich families, especially a few decades ago when there were far fewer laws about the practice, had slaves. This man came from a slave-owning family. They wanted him to have a good education, so they sent him to the capital to study. One day, he went to the Alliance Francaise in the city and started reading books about the French Revolution, and learned all about the principles of Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité. He couldn't reconcile these ideals with his life, where his family owned people and treated them like they weren't humans equal to them. Eventually, he became an anti-slavery advocate, and now works side-by-side with former slaves in Mauritania to end the practice once and for all.

[lauraloralara]

I am so glad I was allowed and encouraged to read when I was a child. I would have been a totally different person if I hadn't loved reading and gotten the opportunity to do it... although it feels weird to write that I had "the opportunity" to read. Usually I reserve that word for something like skydiving or meeting the president. I guess in fundieland all of those things are equally unusual.

[Terrie]

My favorite book from childhoo di Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH. I am now trying to find out what fundies think of it and if it's ever been banned. And I'm actually a little disappointed I have yet to find that it's scandalous. 

[Loveday]

8 hours ago, nastyhobbitses said:

The only book censorship my parents ever did was when my dad used to read aloud to me before bed, and he refused to read a part of Little House on the Prairie where Pa sings an almost absurdly racist folk song. I was reading the page along with him, so I knew what was there, but he simply said, "this is a part where Pa sings something very, very racist, and I don't want to say those words because they're hurtful. In the time this happened, people thought it was OK to think like that, but not anymore." Other than that, my parents pretty much let me read whatever the hell I wanted. Though it did get awkward when I was 11 and read a historical fiction novel that had the main female character's rape as a plot point, and I asked my science teacher what a hymen was and why it was bad if it was broken.

<snipped for brevity>

Do you recall what the song was? Because as soon as I read your comment, I pulled out my Little House on the Prairie and couldn't find any racist folk songs in it (I may have missed it, though). I did find part of 'Dixie,' but only a bit of the chorus, I think. Would that have been it? 

Much as I adore Laura Ingalls Wilder and her books, I do know that there are some problems with her work, unfortunately.  

[Rachel333]

My mom was saying the other day that she wished she had censored the Little House books when she was reading them to me because she thinks the descriptions of butchering animals caused my vegetarianism. 

I don't know about that, but I do vividly remember the part where Laura and Mary play with a pig's bladder.

30 minutes ago, Loveday said:

Do you recall what the song was? Because as soon as I read your comment, I pulled out my Little House on the Prairie and couldn't find any racist folk songs in it (I may have missed it, though). I did find part of 'Dixie,' but only a bit of the chorus, I think. Would that have been it? 

Much as I adore Laura Ingalls Wilder and her books, I do know that there are some problems with her work, unfortunately.  

I googled it and here's a blog post discussing the song, and other instances of racism in the books: https://theawl.com/no-offense-to-laura-ingalls-wilder-4aa9e20e8755#.eopa3ouo2

[catlady]

2 hours ago, Terrie said:

My favorite book from childhoo di Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH. I am now trying to find out what fundies think of it and if it's ever been banned. And I'm actually a little disappointed I have yet to find that it's scandalous. 

I was thinking of this while reading the thread, and I was so thrilled to see someone else loved it too!  I haven't read it since maybe 1984, but it was one of my favorites. 

 

I also loved Laura Ingalls.  I began reading Big Woods in first grade (I learned how to read early), and I finished the series maybe 2 or 3 years later.  then probably read them all over again a few times until middle school.  I don't specifically remember the song indicated upthread, but I do remember in one of the later books, when they were living in DeSmet, that during a town celebration, Pa and some other men performed a song or skit in blackface.