Jessa, Ben and Spurgeon Part Eight

[PennySycamore]

31 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

No one would be wearing shorts in NJ in December.  Those pictures are current.

Also the short sleeves and one tank top.  Not December wear!

[Guest]

No one would be wearing shorts in NJ in December.  Those pictures are current.

Also, Jessa's post-pregnancy bangs have grown out.

If she's about 1-3 months along, her kids will be about 14-16 months apart, which is a little shorter than Michelle's average, but probably pretty normal for a 23 year old. Anna announced Michael at Mack's 1st birthday and had time for a miscarriage in between. Jill is surprising me though... She got pregnant days after getting married, but Israel is already 15 months old and there hasn't been an announcement.

[Rachel333]

13 hours ago, PennySycamore said:

I remember reading some years ago that Susanna Wesley spent an hour everyday in prayer.  I wondered how in the hell could she manage that with 19 kids.

Well, sadly, 9 of those kids died in infancy. At her death only 8 of the 19 were still alive.

8 is still a lot, though. The story I heard is that when she needed time to pray she would pull her apron over her head and the kids knew not to bother her.

Incidentally, she was the 25th of 25 children herself. (Her father, a minister named Samuel Annesley, married twice.)

She also basically homeschooled her kids, which is another reason she's so popular among fundies. Here are some rules she had for her children. She was clearly a very strict parent, but I do like some of the rules, like "Require no daughter to work before she can read well." I don't think that's one the Duggars abide by.

I like the name Susanna but hate the name Wesley. Still, Wesley is a fairly normal name and definitely no "Spurgeon." Annesley could also be a pretty normal sounding name if you pronounce it like "Ainsley."

[luxfilia]

17 hours ago, SunnySideUp said:

 

For some reason, the idea of them having Spurgeon and Hamish cracks me up. Please let this happen.

 

Ham & potatoes!

[Four is Enough]

Ermagerd, Spud is REALLY cute! Then he makes the "JIm Bob" face and it's amazing how much he looks like him! Scary!

[Glasgowghirl]

3 hours ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

I also get the impression Jessa has never forgiven the headship for naming him 'Spurgeon'. 

I wouldn't forgive him either.

[EmCatlyn]

53 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

Well, sadly, 9 of those kids died in infancy. At her death only 8 of the 19 were still alive.

8 is still a lot, though. The story I heard is that when she needed time to pray she would pull her apron over her head and the kids knew not to bother her.

Incidentally, she was the 25th of 25 children herself. (Her father, a minister named Samuel Annesley, married twice.)

She also basically homeschooled her kids, which is another reason she's so popular among fundies. Here are some rules she had for her children. She was clearly a very strict parent, but I do like some of the rules, like "Require no daughter to work before she can read well." I don't think that's one the Duggars abide by.

I like the name Susanna but hate the name Wesley. Still, Wesley is a fairly normal name and definitely no "Spurgeon." Annesley could also be a pretty normal sounding name if you pronounce it like "Ainsley."

Thanks for the link and additional information.  (I must say that if it had been me I might have needed to "pray" with my apron over my head a lot more than an hour a day. Privacy! Time to catch my thoughts!)

Just to clarify, "work" in this context refers to needlework/sewing.   (It gradually replaced "spinning" as the constant occupation of women.).  As I understand it, she is saying that teaching reading comes before teaching needlework (samplers, etc.).    By putting the reading ahead of the needlework she is saying that the girls' minds matter. (Also, since reading of the Bible was important, she is making sure her daughters have access to spiritual guidance.)

As far as other work goes, I expect the Wesley daughters helped around the house (dusting, sweeping, polishing furniture as needed), helped with younger children, and helped in the kitchen (washing produce, sorting through peas for rocks, hulling,  peeling and chopping, stirring, beating etc.) even though there were probably at least two servants (one of the 10 kids who didn't make it to adulthood was accidentally smothered by a servant, if I remember correctly).   There were no washing machines, dishwashers or convenience foods back then, so even empoverished "middle class" families like the Wesleys had servants.  But with all the work there would have been, the daughters must have helped.  We have accounts (both from Britain and America) of mother's listening to their kids' lessons while working in the kitchen.   I could see both boys and girls reciting their times tables or Latin grammar while chopping vegetables and helping Susanna Wesley put dinner together.

It is too bad that the Duggars didn't get the solid education that the Wesley kids did.   But it takes a dedicated parent who also happens to be well-educated herself.

[Chickenbutt]

Is there a particular book anyone can recommend about Susanna Wesley? I goggled her and would love to read more about her life.

ETA: Just went to Amazon, there a bunches and bunches of books. How to choose?

[Glasgowghirl]

Its sad that Susana Wesley taught her children better than what most fundie families we follow. It must have been hard to lose half your children. 

[PennySycamore]

@Rachel333, thanks for mentioning that bit about Susannah throwing her apron over her head.  I thought I'd read that but it's been about 40 years and I wasn't sure.

I've wondered of Susannah sent her babies out to be wet-nursed.  Middle-class English women of the period tended to.   Many babies died at the wet nurse because she'd take on more kids than she could cope with.  I know that Jane Austen had at least one brother who died when he was sent out to nurse.

[VelociRapture]

3 hours ago, SunnySideUp said:

 

Also, Jessa's post-pregnancy bangs have grown out.

If she's about 1-3 months along, her kids will be about 14-16 months apart, which is a little shorter than Michelle's average, but probably pretty normal for a 23 year old. Anna announced Michael at Mack's 1st birthday and had time for a miscarriage in between. Jill is surprising me though... She got pregnant days after getting married, but Israel is already 15 months old and there hasn't been an announcement.

 

Jill isn't that surprising to me to be honest. There are so many factors that can determine how fertile someone is and whether they'll be able to conceive easily or not. I mean, Jill had a tough delivery with Izzy and had to undergo an emergency c-section because of it. There could be lingering side effects from that. 

And getting pregnant quickly the first time means nothing too. Some couples deal with unexplained secondary infertility after conceiving easily in the past. Plus, Jill and Derick may just not be as fertile together as her parents were. Most couples aren't (thankfully, because everyone having 19 kids would wreck havoc on the planet.)

[Rachel333]

53 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

Jill isn't that surprising to me to be honest. There are so many factors that can determine how fertile someone is and whether they'll be able to conceive easily or not. I mean, Jill had a tough delivery with Izzy and had to undergo an emergency c-section because of it. There could be lingering side effects from that. 

How would that affect fertility? I'm just curious. It definitely seems like her body went through a lot, though.

[Purrl]

13 hours ago, Jinder Roles said:

You know, when I was younger I thought Jezebel was a beautiful name. I named my dolls, my Sims and my imaginary future daughter Jezebel. 

Then I got a picture Bible for Christmas and read the story. Oops. 

Sort of like the Bates with Michal. Only they actually named her that before reading the story.

[luxfilia]

32 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

How would that affect fertility? I'm just curious. It definitely seems like her body went through a lot, though.

It probably wouldn't, but anxiety and stress can definitely contribute to hormone imbalance, and it's possible a physically and emotionally traumatic birth caused her extra stress. There are also some interesting studies on hormones after c section vs vaginal birth, but I haven't seen anything conclusive. And of course many people with any initial imbalance (which is not always just like one's mother), may have more trouble reregulating after any big change or event, such as giving birth. All that aside, I think it's likely that breastfeeding, which doesn't always delay ovulation, may have worked like a birth control method in her case. I am also not 100% sure they wouldn't at least "subconsciously" avoid sex during her fertile window just because of Zika. I know a lot of people disagree.

ETA: I also just remembered 1 Cor. 7:5: "Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control." Maybe Jill & Derick can work this into their system of beliefs to reason out the whole need to deal with Zika thing. Sure, it contradicts the quiverfull philosophy if used to avoid having children, but we know they're all great at mental gymnastics. 

[karen77]

1 hour ago, VelociRapture said:

Jill isn't that surprising to me to be honest. There are so many factors that can determine how fertile someone is and whether they'll be able to conceive easily or not. I mean, Jill had a tough delivery with Izzy and had to undergo an emergency c-section because of it. There could be lingering side effects from that. 

And getting pregnant quickly the first time means nothing too. Some couples deal with unexplained secondary infertility after conceiving easily in the past. Plus, Jill and Derick may just not be as fertile together as her parents were. Most couples aren't (thankfully, because everyone having 19 kids would wreck havoc on the planet.)

we were one of those couples, first go at getting pregnant (BC prior) and boom. then secondary infertility, took 2 years and drugs and procedures to finally get tehre with #2. Final issue that we determined...because I weighed about 10 lbs more than when I got pregnant with #1 (talking 144 lbs to 155 lbs) I had started showing pre-diabetic signs (higher glucose only) and I think that is the reason, so we treated that, along with helping things out (IUI and drugs) and finally got there. My family dr was really surprised at my glucose tolerance test results...since I was barely over my weight range for my height (like 1 lb).

[VelociRapture]

33 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

How would that affect fertility? I'm just curious. It definitely seems like her body went through a lot, though.

Sorry! I meant her difficult labor could have possibly affected her future fertility somehow - not the actual c-section (I'm pretty sure it's a relatively safe procedure at this point, but there's always risks with major surgery.)

Most Doctors do recommend waiting to conceive a certain amount of time after a woman undergoes a c-section to give her body time to recover - I tried googling how long they recommend, but wasn't able to find anything credible. I do know the longer you wait the higher your chance of successfully delivering vaginally next time will be. And considering Jill mentioned she wants to try for a VBAC next time, it would be smart for them to wait. Who knows if the Dills actively followed that advice or if it just happened that way though.

I obviously don't know exactly what happened during her labor - the accounts about it have been really confusing at times. But the fact that her labor lasted so long, that Izzy was as big as he was, labor resulted in fetal distress, and ended with an emergency c-section leads me to believe her body may have needed more time to heal than it would have otherwise. Hormones are really tricky and I don't think it's entirely out of the realm of possibility to think that her's may have been impacted somehow because of everything.

(And just an aside - I don't mean to suggest anything is wrong with Jill or Derick at all. I have absolutely no way of knowing what may be going on and I don't want to know. Even Fundies deserve privacy if they want it. I just don't think there's anything really surprising about her not being pregnant yet - she isn't her mother and Derick isn't her father and they may not have the same fertility.)

@karen77I'm sorry you and your husband had to deal with secondary infertility, but I'm happy to hear you had such a positive outcome! 

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, PennySycamore said:

@Rachel333, thanks for mentioning that bit about Susannah throwing her apron over her head.  I thought I'd read that but it's been about 40 years and I wasn't sure.

I've wondered of Susannah sent her babies out to be wet-nursed.  Middle-class English women of the period tended to.   Many babies died at the wet nurse because she'd take on more kids than she could cope with.  I know that Jane Austen had at least one brother who died when he was sent out to nurse.

You are right that many kids died while "sent out to nurse."  But many kids also died who staayed in their parents' care.   Infant mortality was a serious problem before the 1920s.  

I don't know if Susannah Wesley sent her kids out to nurse.  The one who was accidentally smothered was smothered a live-n servant.  

By the way, "sent out to nurse" is not the same as "sent to a wet nurse."  You mention the Austens.  In their case Mrs. Austen breastfed the baby until it was 6 or 7 months old then the baby was "sent out to nurse" at a nearby village.  The baby at this point would be introduced to gruels and other soft food along with cow or goat milk.  The "nurse" was a caregiver, not a wet nurse.  (Even today, in British English "nursing a baby" doesn't always imply breastfeeding.)

The reason some middle-class women sent their kids to be cared for by strangers during the toddler period was practical.  A toddling child can get into everything.  Also, a toddling child is hard to keep clean and nice smelling. (This was not only before disposable diapers.  It was before washing machines and running hot water.). It was easier to send the kids away where they would be able to run around in grubby clothes and maybe without pants/diapers some of the time. (Even before kids could control their bodily functions, they could lift their shifts out of the way and squat instead of soiling a diaper.  The dirt floor of a farmer's cabin was easier to "clean" than a soiled diaper.)  Families would visit at least once a week, and occasionally the toddler would be dressed up and brought to spend time with his/her family.  Most kids returned to the family when they were around three. (That is to say, after they were toilet trained.)

Back to the Austens, none of the Austen kids died while "at nurse" or elsewhere.  You may be thinking of a different family.  But the Austens did have a child who was developmentally slow and subject to "fits." No one knows what exactly was wrong with George, but though he couldn't live a normal life he outlived his parents and some of his siblings, including Jane Austen herself.  He was cared for until he died by a peasant family that may have been the same family that took him "to nurse" as an infant.  

Back to Susannah Wesley, she was born at the end of the 17th century and raised her children in great poverty for all that her husband was a clergyman and an educated man.   

[Rachel333]

3 hours ago, luxfilia said:

It probably wouldn't, but anxiety and stress can definitely contribute to hormone imbalance, and it's possible a physically and emotionally traumatic birth caused her extra stress. There are also some interesting studies on hormones after c section vs vaginal birth, but I haven't seen anything conclusive. And of course many people with any initial imbalance (which is not always just like one's mother), may have more trouble reregulating after any big change or event, such as giving birth. All that aside, I think it's likely that breastfeeding, which doesn't always delay ovulation, may have worked like a birth control method in her case. I am also not 100% sure they wouldn't at least "subconsciously" avoid sex during her fertile window just because of Zika. I know a lot of people disagree.

ETA: I also just remembered 1 Cor. 7:5: "Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control." Maybe Jill & Derick can work this into their system of beliefs to reason out the whole need to deal with Zika thing. Sure, it contradicts the quiverfull philosophy if used to avoid having children, but we know they're all great at mental gymnastics. 

I would be really interested to hear Jill and Derick talk frankly about Zika and what it means to their beliefs. I know it has sparked conversations about legalizing abortion in a lot of Latin American countries. I don't expect Jill and Derick would change their opinion on that, but I am curious if this has made them rethink their plan to have as many babies as possible.

[habert]

Also, it could be Derrick's problem not Jill's. He seems thinner, there's speculation on his health, maybe he's, you know, not firing on all cylinders.

[luxfilia]

29 minutes ago, habert said:

Also, it could be Derrick's problem not Jill's. He seems thinner, there's speculation on his health, maybe he's, you know, not firing on all cylinders.

That's a good point. I shouldn't have only mentioned Jill. 

[habert]

Just now, luxfilia said:

That's a good point. I shouldn't have only mentioned Jill. 

Jill did have a difficult pregnancy. It could be a combo! 

Fertility is not some quantitative thing, and I feel like this forum is a little guilty of talking about it like it is. You made excellent points, and I always appreciate sensible fertility facts. Also, the truth is we're waiting for it to happen but it's been 15 months, that's like...nothing. It can just feel like "something" is up but like she could be getting pregnant right now while we speak lol. We're* eager to not be bored and have our preconceive notions validated.

 

*we're as in fj, not you specifically

[luxfilia]

3 hours ago, habert said:

Jill did have a difficult pregnancy. It could be a combo! 

Fertility is not some quantitative thing, and I feel like this forum is a little guilty of talking about it like it is. You made excellent points, and I always appreciate sensible fertility facts. Also, the truth is we're waiting for it to happen but it's been 15 months, that's like...nothing. It can just feel like "something" is up but like she could be getting pregnant right now while we speak lol. We're* eager to not be bored and have our preconceive notions validated.

 

*we're as in fj, not you specifically

Yup. Not to mention many of us are women of reproductive age with our own issues on the brain, and people do like to relate these things to their own experiences. 

[Purrl]

I would like to think that they (Jill & Derrick) are waiting the 2 years her doctor suggested before getting pregnant again - but I doubt that's the reason.

[barbecutie]

21 hours ago, SunnySideUp said:

 

Also, Jessa's post-pregnancy bangs have grown out.

If she's about 1-3 months along, her kids will be about 14-16 months apart, which is a little shorter than Michelle's average, but probably pretty normal for a 23 year old. Anna announced Michael at Mack's 1st birthday and had time for a miscarriage in between. Jill is surprising me though... She got pregnant days after getting married, but Israel is already 15 months old and there hasn't been an announcement.

 

Have you seen photos of Derrick's lately? There is a reason she's not hitting that 

[coffeebean7]

23 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

Jill isn't that surprising to me to be honest. There are so many factors that can determine how fertile someone is and whether they'll be able to conceive easily or not. I mean, Jill had a tough delivery with Izzy and had to undergo an emergency c-section because of it. There could be lingering side effects from that. 

And getting pregnant quickly the first time means nothing too. Some couples deal with unexplained secondary infertility after conceiving easily in the past. Plus, Jill and Derick may just not be as fertile together as her parents were. Most couples aren't (thankfully, because everyone having 19 kids would wreck havoc on the planet.)

It's not super surprising to me either. Jill is probably still nursing Izzy to some extent. My son was born a few hours after Israel and I didn't get my first period after pregnancy until this month. I think the average breastfeeding mom doesn't have a period return until about 14-16 months or something like that. Obviously you can get pregnant before that though. I do think they are trying to get pregnant though, based on their comments on Instagram about how Izzy doesn't have any siblings "yet".

As for Jessa? She totally looks pregnant. I predict another November baby.