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Tragedy and Spirituality/Religion


iweartanktops

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 This is long so I apologize in advance. I grew up in dysfunctional homes (my parents were divorced). In one home violence and fear were daily realities. In the other, addiction was a problem. I remember CPS coming to visit after a incident once and I suggested we could go live with my other parent in a different state which they allowed not knowing that the other home was just as broken and in some ways far worse (but the idea of being taken away terrified me) The only escape I had was with family who helped raise us and gave us a stable environment when we went to visit and on some occasions live with. As a child I started developing mental illness specifically anxiety. I couldn't be left alone, not even to go to the bathroom without freaking out. I was terrified something was out to get me and by 5th grade I started developing compulsions. Having to blink a certain amount of times, repeated praying and horrible intrusive thoughts and awful nightmares that I woke up screaming from at night. I was molested twice (not by family) and so I struggled with things of that nature as well. Kids in class would laugh and say I was crazy because of my compulsions. I started seeing things that weren't there and I stayed  very scared.The only thing that got me through those nights where I felt so alone and scared to death was my belief in God. Later on, when my daughter was 5 months old the parent that struggled with addiction died in a awful accident. It broke my heart and I struggled with so many emotions, guilt and anger were the main ones and I had a hard time getting over the shock of it  because I had loved him so much and yet there was so much left unresolved.I ended up admitted after hearing things and was officially diagnosed with PTSD and OCD. I got help and I found church I love and I'm doing a lot better. I haven't had an hallucinations or panic attacks in years. My drs are really proud of how far I've come and how  well I'm doing. When my mom tried to kill herself last year I was in charge of her medical decisions and that was really hard, but I got through it with the help of  my  faith. She's probably more stable now than I've ever seen her in my life. The odds were really stacked against me growing up, but I'm accomplishing so much. When I thought couldn't possibly manage anymore when I was younger and was tempted to turn to the same patterns I saw destroy my parents I had God as my strength. Its because of that  I've never turned to substances for relief. I'm in college getting a bachelors in health & wellness and biology so that I can become a teacher and  help kids learn to cope with things in a healthy manner and  avoid a fate like my dad. My greatest accomplishment though is I'm a good parent and my child has a home she feels safe and free to be a kid. I know if it wasn't for my faith I couldn't have done all that. God gave me strength when I felt I  had nothing else to lean on. I also think that we go through things and we can use those things to do good. If my dad hadn't died I would have never went to the hospital and gotten help and decided to go to college. I wouldn't be able to help  people and relate to them in such a personal way if I didn't suffer through mental illness and my home life. I serve the homeless and my experiences help me be much better at listening and loving people who are really struggling and been through some awful stuff.  I don't really look at Heaven as a big factor when it comes to tragedies. The love and strength I've felt through my faith in God is far more than enough.

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7 hours ago, ester said:

Full disclosure: I'm a student Rabbi. A professional God-wrestler. When I see smart people struggling with the idea of the divine, I'm elated.

Here's a Jewish idea to chew on, if you feel like it. The world is a broken place. We humans are here to repair it, even at an infinitesimal rate. Even when there are people who break it more.

Creation isn't just a process, it is the process, holy for it's own sake. Our tradition says that at the point of creation (poetically described as very like the big bang, ) God retracted God's self, in order that the holy process continue. It isn't God's plan that matters, it is human choice, human growth. The reward isn't an afterlife (about which there are diverse views in Judaism. It's about bringing the presence of the holy into the broken world.

Good exists. I know it. I can describe what I see, but I can't quantify it. It is a deep sense of good that most people just have. Evil exists. I know that too. I can say what evil things are, I can name them, but I cannot quantify them. The sense of what is truly evil goes beyond survival.

I am a God believer, true. But I also know that there are places where God is not.

OK, hon (spent WAYYY too much time in Baltimore, where everyone is "hon"---hope you're OK with this): but help me out here. 

My interpretation of your words (and PLEASE correct if way wrong!) is the Deity sets things in motion, but when the rubber meets the road, it is the task of us humans to try and fix and repair and heal the brokenness.  The Deity *can* and *has* the power to do this, but for whatever reasons, leaves it in our hands to accomplish, as best we can.

(re:bolded):  Does this mean there are places where Deity IS, where zhe *does* exist and watches, but *chooses* not to act in human affairs, because we must have the free will to choose good and work for it?  

Or are you meaning that there may literally be places in our human-bound world where the force and power of Deity has literally been driven out by Pure Evil: places where the Deity sits with face-in-hands and weeps in sorrow and pain for human suffering, but cannot act BECAUSE the force of Evil is so massive?

Please, in your kindness, help teach me! and if my phrasings are offensive, please advise and help. I remain, sincerely yours, samira

*Dang, I am gonna get in SO much trouble for excess formatting again*

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For what it's worth, I believe that tragic things just sometimes happen - and if tragic things never happened to innocents who don't deserve it, how would we ever really be able to learn to feel empathy and compassion?

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Hey, Samira,

OK, hon (spent WAYYY too much time in Baltimore, where everyone is "hon"---hope you're OK with this): but help me out here. 

- just don't call me late for dinner!

My interpretation of your words (and PLEASE correct if way wrong!) is the Deity sets things in motion, but when the rubber meets the road, it is the task of us humans to try and fix and repair and heal the brokenness. 

- That is Deism, which is also an interesting theology, but not quite what I'm on about.

The Deity *can* and *has* the power to do this, but for whatever reasons, leaves it in our hands to accomplish, as best we can.

 - Can, has and does, but is in effect in partnerships with people. The particular partnership in Judaism is called the Brit, which means contract or covenant.

(re:bolded):  Does this mean there are places where Deity IS, where zhe *does* exist and watches, but *chooses* not to act in human affairs,

 - Chooses is where the theology meets the narrative. You know the story of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? We don't see that fruit eating as sin. We see it as accepting free will, the knowledge of good and evil, and responsibility for our actions. It's a harder road, but without it, we cannot be in divine partnership. Does the divine choose to be absent? Or is it the responsibility we have accepted?

because we must have the free will to choose good and work for it?  

 - We chose free will, and we have to choose that. This is hard because evil exists, and some people will choose it, accept it, embrace it. Let it be in charge.

Or are you meaning that there may literally be places in our human-bound world where the force and power of Deity has literally been driven out by Pure Evil:

- Evil is as much a part of creation as good, and both impulses are within humans. We have to harness the "evil impulse" for positive things (ambition rather than power grabbing, strength rather than anger, passion rather than violence,) and make a holy place. Where we let hatred, violence, cruelty be the rule, we have driven out the divine presence.

places where the Deity sits with face-in-hands and weeps in sorrow and pain for human suffering, but cannot act BECAUSE the force of Evil is so massive?

- That could be a way to look at it. But it isn't that evil is more or less powerful, it's that humans choose it. The best way to understand the struggle with the idea of God in the face of evil in Judaism is to read Night by Elie Wiesel. When one of his fellow prisoners asks Wiesel "where is God now?" Wiesel says, "there, hanging from that scaffold." How do we exist, how does the holy exist? There is no way to answer that simply.

Please, in your kindness, help teach me! and if my phrasings are offensive, please advise and help. I remain, sincerely yours, samira

- kindness, more like compulsivity, LOL - Ester

*Dang, I am gonna get in SO much trouble for excess formatting again*
 


oh I'll probably get in trouble for babbling excessively

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I have a disability (lifelong) and I used to believe in god as a child.  As a teen and an adult I stopped when I realised how many people view my disability as something bad and  to be healed - I've seen friends reduced to tears when told they couldn't really believe in god because if they did they would no longer be disabled. I've been stopped in the street by people who wanted to tell me about how if I accept Jesus I won't be disabled and refuse to get out of my way until I swore at them and made it very clear they either moved or my wheelchair would be going over their foot as I went  round. 

And you know I've been saying for a long time that my problem wasn't with the concept of religion, it was with religious people who to my limited understanding of what god and christianity are had an unusual interpretation of it. 

 

Then a relative of mine died My parents were next of kin and as my relative had very little family my brother and I were in the front pew of the church during the funeral.  And the vicar made a joke about my disability.  If during a time of great upset for me "god's representative" can feel it appropriate to find humour in such a thing rather than showing support and god's love then I want nothing to do with an institution that can be so harmful and dangerous.

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THIS! Exactly and everything THIS! Thank you @JemilyJ! Thank you!

i have experienced all of those things - with the people stopping me in the street or on public transport to tell me about Jesus, or interrupting my supermarket shopping in order to pray loudly and at length in tongues. Jemilyj had it exactly right that people see me and see a problem - something that is wrong. 

I'm sorry for the loss of your relative, and for the vicar's inappropriate use of your disability. Both awful things. You are a person, and so much more than just a wheelchair. That's just a means of transport. I'm sure you know that, but it is easy to take the perception of others to heart. 

I love reading how other people resolve or express the difficulty of a loving and all-powerful deity in the face of tragedy and loss and unfairness. Thank you to all of you.

 

 

 

 

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After the devastating premature deaths of both of my beloved brothers in 2001, from "rare" conditions, and my then husband's cancer diagnosis in the midst, I found "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" by Rabbi Kushner to be a life saver. My faith was sorely challenged, but instead of "why me", I asked "why not me"?. The rabbi wrote this little gem of a book after the death of his young son. Can't recommend it highly enough.

I am still a person of faith but that faith has matured and I no longer expect to understand everything. People of faith suffer too. But I have joy and peace and no I cannot rationally explain why. I also realize that some have joy and peace without faith, but it didn't work that way for me. My mind as encapsulated in this body cannot possibly comprehend our lives (and deaths) in a universal context. I hope to understand life, death, time, God, and love...one day.

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http://thankgodforevolution.com/node/1960

I wrote a long response to this, which I then (stupidly) erased.

Try to gather my thoughts again:

I find great comfort in Aaron Freemon's words, as linked above, that 'amid the energies of the cosmos, I gave as good as I got.' I have asked that this be read at my funeral.

God seems so often to be used as a way to distance ourselves from tragedy. God is praised for saving one person's paintwork from a hurricane, without acknowledging that other people lost lives, or suffered great damage to their bodies or property. I can't see this as anything other than shortsighted and hurtful to those who have suffered losses.

Wouldn't it be better to recognise that everything that we have is subject to the vagaries of nature, and that we are neither special when we are spared, nor condemned when we are not. Bad things happen, and we should reach out to others in such times, either to help, or to be helped. 

Because I don't believe in any God, I feel uncomfortable when I see people offering prayers instead of action (though I do recognise that many people are capable of both), when people gloat about their righteousness in having been passed over in some tragedy, or pass judgement on those who are already suffering. In those instances, it seems as though God adds nothing in terms of understanding or relief.

My views are certainly being challenged by this discussion, and I will look for the book you mentioned @SilverBeach, thank you.

ETA that I'm so sorry for the untimely loss of your brothers, @SilverBeach

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Once I was at a prayer meeting and I aked prayer for my daughter who needed to see a specialist the next day. We knew the best case scenario for her would be years of very painful surgery and treatment to prevent permanent disability. A sister next to me whispered in my ear that God as a loving Father would not let her go through so much pain, and she believed my daughter would be miraculously healed.

Of couse since she was not God, she had no right to say that. And our child did suffer through some very nasty stuff. But we realised we were so privileged we could afford the treatment as well as moving to be near one of the very few hospitals where her condition could be treated.

We faced several life threatning situations during that time. All I can say looking back is that we were carried every step. Somehow we had to go through it and we did, but we were never alone. My faith was not particularly strong, but I found God was like a solid rock under our lives and knowing that whatever happened, we were ultimately safe in the hands of God, gave us peace. I am less scared now of the future knowing how powerful God's help is when we are helpless.

 

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I believe some of this came up during the public outcry against the lady in Oregon who had brain cancer and wanted to commit suicide.  SO many people on the Internet kept telling her that she needed to pray more, she needed to open her heart to Jesus, she needed to have faith or He wouldn't heal her. Worse that she'd go to Hell.  And my thought was, isn't one's relationship with their Divine strictly personal? What's to say she hadn't prayed? Maybe she was saved? Maybe finding a state and a doctor to end her suffering was His/Her answer/plan. My grandma was devout and still ravaged by cancer in a matter of months. 

My favorite quote shows my inner geek. Its from the TV show Futurama.  Bender the robot gets launched into space, and discovers he has these colonies living on his body.  He first plays God and screws it all up. When he did too much, his people got too dependent on him. When he did too little or tragedy struck they lost faith. He then meets "God" who tells him "when you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all". 

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My friend posted an article on Facebook this morning, and it really speaks to the conversation in this thread: Why Christians Need to Stop Saying “Everything Happens for a Reason”. (The article links back to an earlier piece by the author, Not Everything Happens For a Reason .)

This paragraph expresses what I have been thinking:

Quote

God is not responsible for our pain. We are not responsible for our pain. What happened in the Garden of Eden is responsible for the human condition. And the human condition is hard wired for pain and suffering. God is not causing us to hurt. He is hurting with us. What we do with our hurt is what matters. How we handle tragedy is what brings purpose into our pain.

 

 

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@Jellybean,  I had to laugh when I read that piece you linked.  It turns out that I could have a physicist speak at my funeral if he outlives me!  Well, a teacher of physics at least.  My brother teaches physics and he'd only about 15 months older than I.

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