Duggars by the Dozenty!!11!- Part 21: As many threads as Duggars

[OrchidBlossom]

35 minutes ago, calimojo said:

I don't necessarily disagree with you,  just that my impression from the very beginning was that it was Michelle that first started getting into the Gothard stuff.  Or at least quiverfull stuff.  I always feel like she seems more sincere in her whacky beliefs than JB does.  To me JB always seems to be acting a role (poorly).  I think they got involved in Gothard and started making a name for themselves.  JB was a dweeb his whole life and suddenly he was somebody.  He has gained a lot by spouting off the religion.  But I think Michelle really believes it.  And I think it is her ardent belief in all of that has allowed her to turn a blind eye to how cruel the child rearing practices are.  I don't think she is an inherently mean or violent person, but I think she genuinely believes that it is her duty to raise her kids by the rod in order to make them obedient and godly. 

I actually think JB's gotta be somebody attitude is what drew him more to fundieism. It's a great gig for men. Have lots of unprotected sex and boss around your womenfolk, plus plenty of church donations and free manual labor from the kiddos, and you are a demigod answerable to no one in your home.

Obviously we are picking up the same vibes from both of em, even with slightly different interpretations.

[BabyBottlePop]

For JB, it's an easy route to power. Simple as that.

[foreign fundie]

Now this may be a useful link for the Duggars:

http://www.theveryworstmissionary.com/2016/02/how-going-on-vacation-might-be-better.html?m=1

On why vacations are better than mission trips.

 

[Timetostoplurking]

2 hours ago, foreign fundie said:

Now this may be a useful link for the Duggars:

http://www.theveryworstmissionary.com/2016/02/how-going-on-vacation-might-be-better.html?m=1

On why vacations are better than mission trips.

 

That was a great read!!!  That article just nailed every problem I have with missionaries.  Thank you for posting that link.     

The dillard really need to read that......ASAP

[foreign fundie]

39 minutes ago, Timetostoplurking said:

That was a great read!!!  That article just nailed every problem I have with missionaries.  Thank you for posting that link.     

The dillard really need to read that......ASAP

Don't forget she is/ was a missionary herself and most of the points she makes are about 'mission trips', not long term missionary work, when missionaries commit to and integrate in a community for many years.

That being said, some of the attitudes she critiques can be seen in immature long-term missionaries too. I do think the Dillards could benefit from her insights (and so could CA).

(Edited to say) this is one of the quotes I like most:

"When you vacation in the places you'd usually mission, you're engaging people's pride and joy without exploiting their shame."

[nastyhobbitses]

On 9/9/2016 at 10:18 AM, foreign fundie said:

Don't forget she is/ was a missionary herself and most of the points she makes are about 'mission trips', not long term missionary work, when missionaries commit to and integrate in a community for many years.

That being said, some of the attitudes she critiques can be seen in immature long-term missionaries too. I do think the Dillards could benefit from her insights (and so could CA).

(Edited to say) this is one of the quotes I like most:

"When you vacation in the places you'd usually mission, you're engaging people's pride and joy without exploiting their shame."

I liked that quote as well. I actually was thinking about something very similar when I was watching the new season of Narcos. As much as I enjoy the show (I'd front-hug Pedro Pascal till the cows come home), it makes me sad to think that most media about Colombia is about all the violence and drug wars, and not about its beautiful countryside, mix of cultures, proud history, and rich literary tradition: things that I'm sure Colombians are far prouder of and want to share with the world far more than their painful recent history.

[Shouldabeenacowboy]

5 hours ago, nastyhobbitses said:

I liked that quote as well. I actually was thinking about something very similar when I was watching the new season of Narcos. As much as I enjoy the show (I'd front-hug Pedro Pascal till the cows come home), it makes me sad to think that most media about Colombia is about all the violence and drug wars, and not about its beautiful countryside, mix of cultures, proud history, and rich literary tradition: things that I'm sure Colombians are far prouder of and want to share with the world far more than their painful recent history.

I agree with you and I so relate to this! Back in the old country, every time I talk to someone who does not really know the USA (except, for, maybe, a quick vacation in New York or something similar), all they see in the media and identify with "America" are McDonalds, guns, police brutality, and, as of lately, Donald Trump. It is so sad, really.

Media, especially internet, is a wonderful thing because it provides access to information in a quicker, unprecedented way. However, it's a double-edged sword in that it sometimes paints a sensationalist, misleading picture of facts. 

I can't even begin to list the countless times I've had to explain to people how wonderful, culturally rich, historically interesting the USA is, and it has a great diversity of culinary traditions which most people outside of the USA have no idea about. The countless times I've had to tell people that yes, I have worked all day and partied all night in Tel Aviv, Israel and no, it is not a 24/7 war zone and yes, people visit museums, restaurants, crack jokes, make love and go about their daily lives. Or that the old country (Italy) is not all about mafia, trash on the streets, and spaghetti with meatballs. 

[Italiangirl]

2 minutes ago, Shouldabeenacowboy said:

 

I can't even begin to list the countless times I've had to explain to people how wonderful, culturally rich, historically interesting the USA is, and it has a great diversity of culinary traditions which most people outside of the USA have no idea about. The countless times I've had to tell people that yes, I have worked all day and partied all night in Tel Aviv, Israel and no, it is not a 24/7 war zone and yes, people visit museums, restaurants, crack jokes, make love and go about their daily lives. Or that the old country (Italy) is not all about mafia, trash on the streets, and spaghetti with meatballs. 

I'm totaly with you on this i can't endure any more People Who pretend to know a country Just from wath the see on TV or internet. Italy for example is full of different people, and from North to South change completly for somthing but is notte all coffe spaghetti e mafia (even the Mafia is changing...).  The same for the US, how could someone who has never been there pretend to know how it is, and ho for ex the election will go?  Io drives me nut even when my own father do it about Italy,  you could immagine how  i feel when ho start talk with someone about the US..... 

[nastyhobbitses]

13 hours ago, Shouldabeenacowboy said:

I agree with you and I so relate to this! Back in the old country, every time I talk to someone who does not really know the USA (except, for, maybe, a quick vacation in New York or something similar), all they see in the media and identify with "America" are McDonalds, guns, police brutality, and, as of lately, Donald Trump. It is so sad, really.

Media, especially internet, is a wonderful thing because it provides access to information in a quicker, unprecedented way. However, it's a double-edged sword in that it sometimes paints a sensationalist, misleading picture of facts. 

I can't even begin to list the countless times I've had to explain to people how wonderful, culturally rich, historically interesting the USA is, and it has a great diversity of culinary traditions which most people outside of the USA have no idea about. The countless times I've had to tell people that yes, I have worked all day and partied all night in Tel Aviv, Israel and no, it is not a 24/7 war zone and yes, people visit museums, restaurants, crack jokes, make love and go about their daily lives. Or that the old country (Italy) is not all about mafia, trash on the streets, and spaghetti with meatballs. 

I've experienced this a lot too. I remember my students in China asking me why I wasn't so fat, because Americans are all fat (though I was still fat by Chinese standards). They also asked me if people just carry guns everywhere and shoot people. And then when I went home for the New Year break, I had to spend so much time telling people that no, China isn't some horrible Communist dystopia, the cuisine is far more diverse than the takeout we eat here, going ching-chong ching-chong is super racist and not even close to what Mandarin or even Cantonese sounds like, and OK, they might take over the world at some point, but quit worrying about it.

Then when I lived in London, it got to the point where if someone asked me what I thought about Donald Trump/Mass Shooting #4565444/police brutality/all the horrible things about the USA, I was going to scream. I don't think that anyone should view a country through uncritical, rose-colored glasses, but when it seems like people actively refuse to see the beautiful, diverse, and good things about your homeland, it gets annoying real fast.

[Timetostoplurking]

I have a rhetorical question for Michelle Duggar.....

Why would a woman in this day and age, in a developed country, with a normal childhood and, as far as we know, no real trauma of any kind, give up all her power? 

She basically turned her life and future over to Jim Bob.  Throughout history, women fought hard, and are still fighting, for equality.  Why just give that away??   I don't understand and will never understand.  What an incredibly irresponsible thing to do!  

I do realize that this question is about 27 years too late, but I still ........shrugs!!!

[sophie10130]

24 minutes ago, Timetostoplurking said:

I have a rhetorical question for Michelle Duggar.....

Why would a woman in this day and age, in a developed country, with a normal childhood and, as far as we know, no real trauma of any kind, give up all her power? 

She basically turned her life and future over to Jim Bob.  Throughout history, women fought hard, and are still fighting, for equality.  Why just give that away??   I don't understand and will never understand.  What an incredibly irresponsible thing to do!  

I do realize that this question is about 27 years too late, but I still ........shrugs!!!

I am not Michelle and I don't even pretend to know why she did what she did, but

There's something special about feeling very confidently like you know your place in the world. Think about the "modern" women who stay with men that don't respect them because they are afraid of the future or don't know where they will live or how they will pay the bills without two incomes. Both are sad cases. One in fundie-dom, one in downtown Manhattan. 

 

I'm also wary to say that Michelle was irresponsible to "give up" future prospects and stay at home and have kids because women have sacrificed so much fighting for equality. Women have sacrificed and continue to sacrifice for women to have a CHOICE, not a career. If a woman chooses to stay at home and have kids, she is not spitting in the face of suffragettes. That's not fair.

Now, what was irresponsible was having too many kids to care for, not allowing them to flourish, not giving them a proper education, not giving her own daughters the choices and opportunities given to her, etc. etc. etc.

[Timetostoplurking]

3 minutes ago, sophie10130 said:

I am not Michelle and I don't even pretend to know why she did what she did, but

There's something special about feeling very confidently like you know your place in the world. Think about the "modern" women who stay with men that don't respect them because they are afraid of the future or don't know where they will live or how they will pay the bills without two incomes. Both are sad cases. One in fundie-dom, one in downtown Manhattan. 

 

I'm also wary to say that Michelle was irresponsible to "give up" future prospects and stay at home and have kids because women have sacrificed so much fighting for equality. Women have sacrificed and continue to sacrifice for women to have a CHOICE, not a career. If a woman chooses to stay at home and have kids, she is not spitting in the face of suffragettes. That's not fair.

Now, what was irresponsible was having too many kids to care for, not allowing them to flourish, not giving them a proper education, not giving her own daughters the choices and opportunities given to her, etc. etc. etc.

I agree!  I'm a stay at home mom and love it.   I gave up a career to be with my kids.  My choice...my life.  But Michelle gave up more than that.   She gave up everything, not just a career.  She gave up the very basic right to her own feeling, and dare I say, her own thoughts.  She gave up expressing an opinion that differs from Jim Bob's.  She gave up her children's future.  She gave away her sexuality, her fertility, the right to express herself creatively in any way but a gender approved way.   Seriously, if she could go back in time, and see her future self, would she give it all up again?  I have no more words.......

[Jana814]

Their has be to be a reason why she changed the way she did. I've talked about my ex-friend becoming a Jehovah Witness. I really believe the reason why she did it was because she knew she didn't have a future. So she decided to make her own decision.  I'm not sure about Michelle though.  She could have seen friends making plans for college or traveling and she knew she could not afford something like that. 

[Timetostoplurking]

So maybe she was just lazy.  (Who am I kidding....of course she's lazy). Silly me.

[luxfilia]

She never even experienced life as a grown woman trying to make it on her own. I'm not gonna lie, there are days when I wish I was married to a rich guy and all I did was stay home. I happen to enjoy all those stereotypically "gendered" pastimes like mopping, organizing, cooking, and all that. (I'd still like my hobbies-- reading, yoga, writing, etc., but that's beside the point.) I've been dealing with health insurance woes today and sometimes it's such a drag I could see how making no decisions/not being in charge of stuff like paying bills, etc., could be appealing, especially since I LOVE children, gardening, and housekeeping. But I just feel too RESPONSIBLE for myself to put all that on my husband. If he begged me to give up my job and have kids, however, it might be more of a dilemma. I might be tempted. I also grew up in the south and in quite a religious family, and I might not have been as likely to veer from that if I happened to love someone who wanted to keep those values, etc. (my husband is agnostic, though he doesn't label himself so). It's hard to imagine how someone decides to be Quiverful. I guess what I'm saying is, it takes two people agreeing (or one of them willing to "fold" in a pretty extreme way).

[Timetostoplurking]

I do remember feeling anxious about my future when I was 20ish.  I remember that feeling.  But with Michelle it seems more than just staying home with kids.  (I was home with my kids for 21 years but never felt anything less than an equal partner with my husband.). With M, It was a contious decision to give in to Jim Bob.   Turn it all over to him and through JB, to God. I'm sure it probably happened more gradually.  But still....  "Here honey....here's my brain....it's all yours".

 

although....who knows....maybe she is thinking all sorts of rebellious thoughts!   Like jeans, tank tops, tankinis, wine and dancing.  Gasp!!!

[Percy]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Michelle's family were moving around the time she married Jim Bob.  Maybe that is why they married so young.

[Jana814]

3 hours ago, Percy said:

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Michelle's family were moving around the time she married Jim Bob.  Maybe that is why they married so young.

That could have been the reason. It might have been the only way for her to stay in the area. 

[Bazinga]

I think with Michelle (and really this is all just speculation and my own thoughts here), she probably has a personality that really thrives on frigid rules. If I could take a guess here, her and Jim Bob were religious. They found (at the time), a church that seemed to produce well mannered individuals and "perfect families." Jim Bob claims his father wasn't as strong of a believer as his mother, thus they suffered at times as a family. If memory serves, Michelle's family wasn't very religious and she came to know God through a friend. So both saw these perfect families through rose colored glasses (aka the families they never had growing up). If they follow the rules, they reap the rewards. Some people need to be told that if you do A, B, & C, you can achieve D. Michelle followed the rules and her reward was "fame *cough* and fortune". Sure the early years were rough, but she began seeing the rewards. They became a model family in their community. They rose amongst the ranks and achieved status. (we have to remember here, they weren't 100% crazy like this as soon as they married. This is something that changed steadily as they became involved with Gothard. I.e. her wearing pants, working (in their book it said she would substitute teach, etc), they spaced out their kids between Josh and the twins by using birth control) and what not.

I guess what I am saying is, I don't necessarily feel like Michelle gave up her life and future to Jim Bob as a woman. I think she just had the personality that thrived in an environment as mentioned above. Even if she had married someone else, who knows what she would have gotten herself into.

7 hours ago, Percy said:

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Michelle's family were moving around the time she married Jim Bob.  Maybe that is why they married so young.

I think this has a lot to do with why the married so young as well. And to piggy back on my post above, I think young people are more susceptible to being influenced by strong personalities (Gothard et al). Had they both dated for a while, and then married later in life, it is also possible that both would have turned out differently as well.

 

 

[SassyPants]

4 hours ago, Bazinga said:

I think with Michelle (and really this is all just speculation and my own thoughts here), she probably has a personality that really thrives on frigid rules. If I could take a guess here, her and Jim Bob were religious. They found (at the time), a church that seemed to produce well mannered individuals and "perfect families." Jim Bob claims his father wasn't as strong of a believer as his mother, thus they suffered at times as a family. If memory serves, Michelle's family wasn't very religious and she came to know God through a friend. So both saw these perfect families through rose colored glasses (aka the families they never had growing up). If they follow the rules, they reap the rewards. Some people need to be told that if you do A, B, & C, you can achieve D. Michelle followed the rules and her reward was "fame *cough* and fortune". Sure the early years were rough, but she began seeing the rewards. They became a model family in their community. They rose amongst the ranks and achieved status. (we have to remember here, they weren't 100% crazy like this as soon as they married. This is something that changed steadily as they became involved with Gothard. I.e. her wearing pants, working (in their book it said she would substitute teach, etc), they spaced out their kids between Josh and the twins by using birth control) and what not.

I guess what I am saying is, I don't necessarily feel like Michelle gave up her life and future to Jim Bob as a woman. I think she just had the personality that thrived in an environment as mentioned above. Even if she had married someone else, who knows what she would have gotten herself into.

I think this has a lot to do with why the married so young as well. And to piggy back on my post above, I think young people are more susceptible to being influenced by strong personalities (Gothard et al). Had they both dated for a while, and then married later in life, it is also possible that both would have turned out differently as well.

 

 

I wonder how the reward of doing A, B and C in order to achieve D was received by the Duggars when instead of achieving D they got Josh and his many antics???

Also, Michelle was a sub. teacher? Of what? She has no schooling beyond HS, IIRC- I thought she, [along with JB and Mary] was a real estate agent.

[Bazinga]

30 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I wonder how the reward of doing A, B and C in order to achieve D was received by the Duggars when instead of achieving D they got Josh and his many antics???

Also, Michelle was a sub. teacher? Of what? She has no schooling beyond HS, IIRC- I thought she, [along with JB and Mary] was a real estate agent.

It was definitely mentioned in their first book that Michelle subbed at the local schools. I know in some states you do not need to be certified to be a substitute teacher and most states will take emergency subs, which are uncertified substitutes that are used if there are no certified substitutes available. Chances are that is how she got to sub. I don't have the book on hand, but IIRC it was in the chapter of them starting out life, pre-Josh. It stuck out to me because I too was thinking...really, she subbed in a public school?

[Bad Wolf]

You can sub here without certification, but you need at least a BA. AR could be different, or maybe she was an aide.

[Jana814]

I think it depends on the state. 

 

[SassyPants]

Uncertified with a college degree, yes, in some states. A person without any college at all? I don;t think so. I don't you think you can even be an aide without any college credits.

[CharlieInCharge]

I can see twenty some odd years ago that a small school would take who they could get. I live in a VERY small town and they bring in certified teachers from outside for the teaching jobs, but the coaches and aides are all locals with their HS diploma and some training or a CC certification.