Gabriel Pearl divorced?!

[Jellybean]

Welcome to FJ!

One of the huge lessons I've encountered here is how normal, nice, kind and often reasonable these people can look (I think of the Bates family as a prime example), and yet they can still hold very ugly beliefs. Those beliefs can and do cause a great deal of harm, which can go unnoticed or uncriticised when the people 'seem like good people'.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good [people] to do nothing, as Edmund Burke said. 

I would encourage you to read the Pearl's writings, especially with some critiques on the side. A couple of good ones are Libby Anne's in-depth reviews of To Train Up a Child (patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/authoritarian-parenting) and Created to Be His Helpmeet (patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/created-to-be-his-help-meet) and Yllom Mormon's series on Created to Need a Helpmeet (yllommormon.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/created-to-need-helpmeet-introduction.html?m=1).

The trial of the parents of Hana Alemu Williams, who died as a result of discipline techniques taught by the Pearls, was covered in depth on Light of Day Stories (lightofdaystories.com/2013/05/11/on-mothers-day-a-prayer-for-hana-alemu-williams) if you'd like to read more about that. I believe the same author (and Libby Anne, as linked above) has also written about Lydia Schatz.

[Glasgowghirl]

13 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

When new people start actual threads the process is to move them from SOTDRT to wherever they should be (because new people can only post in SOTDT and a few other places so mods move them.) 

Not sure how nice the thread would be regardless of where it was, given what's being defended.

Because a good person wouldn't be able to do it.

I'm not a particularly good person and I wouldn't have it in me.  Think about it - what circumstance could cause you (general you - each reader) to hold that in your hand, raise your arm, and bring it down on a defenseless baby.  Just once, let alone time after time after time.  

I'm willing to bet that for the vast majority the answer is nothing - you wouldn't be able to.  

I think that spanking should only be used as a last resort, if ever. My mum only hit us if we were doing something dangerous like trying to run out on traffic, and it was a tap on the hand she said the noise would scare us more than the actual hitting. But using objects to beat people is wrong and if someone did it to an adult they would be charged with assault it should be the same for a child. 

[Koala]

13 minutes ago, Glasgowghirl said:

 But using objects to beating people is wrong 

Fixed.

[SpoonfulOSugar]

@willpower  I actually, do factor intent into my measure of people as "ethical" and "good" and "well intentioned."

I think what you are saying is that you don't believe their intention is wrong.  I disagree - and I'm curious what they have said or written that makes you say that?  Is it based on something specific or more of an overall belief?

Also, you mentioned you were not a native English speaker.  May I ask where you are posting from?  And what languages you speak?

[Palimpsest]

Going back to the beginning ...

3 hours ago, willpower said:

I know that they are good people. 
At least they strive to be. I can value some of their advice, but the self-righteousness in their aproach to other people, both us, unbelivers "who live in the darkness" and fellow belivers, is unjustified. 

No they are not good people nor do they strive to be so.  Do not value  any of their advice.  It is very sad that anyone could stumble over the Pearls and think this for even a minute.

Michael Pearl is pure evil.  He doesn't just advocate beating children.  He did considerable research to find a weapon that allowed him to beat children while leaving very few marks.  The plumbing line.

It doesn't leave obvious bruising it just pulverizes the flesh beneath. Traumatic Rhabdomyolyosis AKA Crush syndrome.  Kids die of shock and renal failure because of their injuries.  He also advocates smothering children to death, to say nothing of the other tortures he preaches.

Pearl has avoided criminal prosecution so far because he says that his teachings are misinterpreted.  Children die because their parents torture them in anger - not in "love. " 

No loving parent would ever use Pearl methods.  No decent person would give him the time of day.

Various cases have been linked above to show the damage he does, but that is just the tip of the iceberg.  These are the children who have died and whose deaths were actually investigated and prosecuted.  How many still suffer?

I wonder how the Pearl/Anast children are doing today and whether Gabe and Rebecca have a few little yet to be discovered bodies in their back yard.  They are so far off the grid these days and no-one knows.

[gustava]

Does Gabe have custody of the children?

[nelliebelle1197]

4 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I'll move this to QFOS in a second...as soon as I recover from reading that those monsters are good people.

They advocate for beating infants.  You get that, right?  With plumbing line.  Infants.  

They're striving to be something, but good people isn't it.

I have the smelling salts and cheesecake waiting for you on the lanai, Buff

[Jana814]

2 hours ago, gustava said:

Does Gabe have custody of the children?

Was wondering the same thing. Does anyone know how many kids he has. 

[SpoonfulOSugar]

15 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

I have the smelling salts and cheesecake waiting for you on the lanai, Buff

I have it on good authority that the way to her heart is strawberry poptarts.

[nelliebelle1197]

@willpower Michael Pearl raped his wife repeatedly on his wedding night. Because he could. He is a sociopath and an abuser. Shoshanna is likely beating her kids just like daddy. Daddy certainly is beating her children. He brags about it.

[Destiny]

5 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

@willpower Michael Pearl raped his wife repeatedly on his wedding night. Because he could. He is a sociopath and an abuser. Shoshanna is likely beating her kids just like daddy. Daddy certainly is beating her children. He brags about it.

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS!

Source for the rape, from Michael's own writing: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolongerquivering/2014/07/quoting-quiverfull-michael-and-debi-pearls-honeymoon/

What a horrible excuse for a human being.

[nelliebelle1197]

And that was rape. I don't care what anyone says or how that behavior might be justified. At some point, Debi had no will to consent. And the was rape.

[Jellybean]

6 hours ago, willpower said:

[snip]

Also, on his [Gabe's] facebook page he has a post that (part of it) says: "It took a lot of prayer and an awful amount of support from my loving family to get my kids home after 2 1/2 years." 
(It's not private profile.)

[snip]

*changes made by me are in italics

It sounds as though Gabe has custody of the children. There seem to be at least three, according to this thread (I miss @thoughtfulfor the insights and song references): 

 

 

[MarblesMom]

@Destiny that was a very disturbing story of the honeymoon.  I just don't know if I can even read more from them.  Thanks for the link, though.

[katilac]

19 minutes ago, Destiny said:

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS!

Source for the rape, from Michael's own writing: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolongerquivering/2014/07/quoting-quiverfull-michael-and-debi-pearls-honeymoon/

What a horrible excuse for a human being.

I'm stuck on the part where he thinks that people catch sand crabs in order to eat them. I mean, I guess you could, but they're tiny, and gross, and an hour of hunting generally garners a fourth of a child's sand bucket. 

People hunt sand crabs in order to amuse young children. Then they let them go, they don't bring them back to the condo for supper. 

[December]

1 hour ago, Destiny said:

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS!

Source for the rape, from Michael's own writing: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolongerquivering/2014/07/quoting-quiverfull-michael-and-debi-pearls-honeymoon/

What a horrible excuse for a human being.

I'm sure I've read this before but that doesn't make it any less horrifying to read again. 

Sickening to think people follow child-rearing from a man who would coerce his wife into sex and treat her so poorly and without compassion in other ways. What a disgusting note to start a marriage off on... if a "honeymoon period" is supposed to be the sweetest, least conflicted time in a marriage, I don't want to think what would follow this behavior. 

[Chevreuil]

My goodness reading about the honeymoon was horrifying. I've read bits and pieces of created to be his helpmeet but couldn't stomach too much but reading that... in his own words... I am terrified there are people in this world that have so little empathy for a person they allegedly love.

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

@willpower I am a fundie and the Pearls make me ill. Someone "gifted" me with their books and I threw them away (I NEVER throw away books!!!) because I didn't want more copies in circulation. Maybe they actually believe in what they teach, but I'm skeptical even of that. Their theology is completely off the wall and their marriage and parenting advice is dangerous, besides their writing shows a general lack of respect for other human beings. 

Years ago, when I had only heard of them (both positively and negatively) second-hand, I figured surely people were overreacting. Once you read the books for yourself, I don't think you'll feel the same way about their "goodness". 

[willpower]

I will not waste my time explaining to you that world is not all black and whight, as for example, Micheal Pearl likes to belive. 
The easiest thing in the world is to be repulsed and condemn something as evil and say: "I'm better than that."
Let's condemn them all!
You all are way to easy to judge.
I find that the feeling of self-righteousness is exeptionaly dangerous feeling, as it leads you into beliving that your values are superior to the values of other people or that even you yourself are superior to them, giving you strenght to violetly push yourself into their life, taking their freedom away.
Take that feeling away and you got yourself a path to productive discusssion.

Time for a few facts.
Micheal Pearl did not kill those children.
They were killed by their own parents. 
I doubt that he instructed them to kill their children in his books or personally, as that is not way of the Bible (sure, there was that time with Isaac, but it turned out the great mate was just joking and the guy is pretty much predictable when it comes to where his conclusions come form. 
I do not agree with his child managment. I find it repulsive, just as I find many things in the Bible.
(child's slouthering, for an instant)
But you cannot acuse a man of something he hasn't done. 
I am sure that, if he was there, he would have stopped that "parents" from killing that poor child. Beating, not so much, 'cause you otta train them.
As I am aware, all of Michael's and Debi's children are still alive and well. 
He's teachings of how to properly "manage" a.k.a. "train" a.k.a. "beat" a.k.a. "break the child" do come unto the definiton of child abuse in yours and mine set of values and standards, but his only standard is the holy "unquestionable" Bible.
I look at their family and I'm saddened because they are slaves of primitive teachings. They beat their children, their women live life of submission, they are afraid of LGBT community, they are afraid of other religions...
Yet, I have read my fair share of their articles and I will stand by my conclusion that they are good people. 

My mother smacked me good a few times and I was little and I crieda and I had bruises and yet she is a good woman. 
My grandfather was the patriarch of his little family and his word was the last, yet he is a good man. 
My catholic friends deem gays as perverted, yet they are good people.
I grew up in traditional community.
Do I share their values? No.
Do I have urge to push myself into their set of values, to explain them, to make them see there is a better way? Yes. 
But I will choose my ways and I am not going to be repulsed and condemn anybody as evil that easily. 

The point of my initial post wasn't however discussing my own complex ethical view's, but quite more simple. Simply giving you all, yet another proof and a real life fact that Pearl's advice and methods are not as sucessfull as they claim them to be, as they themselfs weren't able to produce or "train" better children, have better marriages or families. That is a valuable information.
They are just regular people with their own problems and their joys, a bit over-righteous in their aproach to others (just like any other RepublicanXD) and take their Bible literarly to the heart, just like their old papa and probably, are bearing some mental scars form all the unnecessary beatings they got as children, although they're really relutcant to admit it. Yet, they seem to love their father and it seems that he loves them back. 

You won't change my conclusions about them nor about world.

 

[AmazonGrace]

So do you see any irony in that you're saying that freejingers are too quick to judge and then you judge freejingers for thinking that child abuse is an evil thing? 

[OnceUponATime]

2 hours ago, willpower said:

Yet, I have read my fair share of their articles and I will stand by my conclusion that they are good people. 

What makes them good people in your opinion? Do you believe that everyone is inherently a good person, or is there a more specific reason why you say that in regards to the Pearls?

[Palimpsest]

Well, if we are not going to change @willpower's mind about the Pearls or about the world what's the point of arguing?  

I do wonder where in the world this particular manifestation of Pearl admiration and child abuse apologist originates.

Hey, we just had Fundie Monday what with both willpower and the loathsome Lady Lydia honoring us with their presence!

[formergothardite]

@willpower still would like to know if you think rapist, child molesters, and murders are good people since the end result doesn't matter, all that matters is that they were doing what they viewed as right. I am curious how your belief system works.

@Palimpsest is right, there is no point in trying to convince willpower that a man who tortures children is bad, because she is dead set on thinking they are good. There is no way to combat that sort of a mindset. 

 

[Grimalkin]

1 hour ago, OnceUponATime said:

What makes them good people in your opinion? Do you believe that everyone is inherently a good person, or is there a more specific reason why you say that in regards to the Pearls?

       I do hope she answers this. I am interested in her thoughts on this.

 

[desertvixen]

4 hours ago, willpower said:

<snip>

#1

Let's condemn them all!
You all are way to easy to judge.

<snip>

#2

As I am aware, all of Michael's and Debi's children are still alive and well.
He's teachings of how to properly "manage" a.k.a. "train" a.k.a. "beat" a.k.a. "break the child" do come unto the definiton of child abuse in yours and mine set of values and standards, but his only standard is the holy "unquestionable" Bible.
I look at their family and I'm saddened because they are slaves of primitive teachings. They beat their children, their women live life of submission, they are afraid of LGBT community, they are afraid of other religions...
Yet, I have read my fair share of their articles and I will stand by my conclusion that they are good people. 

<snip>
 

#1 - I don't think the idea is so much to condemn them, as it is to spread the word about them and how their teachings are dangerous.  I agree that Michael Pearl can't be held legally responsible, but that doesn't change my belief that morally, he shares some of the responsibility.

#2 - They're all alive.  "Well" is definitely up for debate.  However, I won't join you in being sad for the Pearls, because they choose to be the way they are,