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Eternalbluepearl

Andrea Yates show that discusses religious aspect of case

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Jasmar

That just makes it sound all the more that she was an abuse victim. 

Men like Rusty Yates use sex as a mechanism for control. IMO, it wasn't about attraction, or the state of her health, or anything but exercising control over Andrea. 

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Ungodly Grandma
11 hours ago, gustava said:

And he got off scott free, remarried, and (I think) had more children.

Somehow I doubt they are very happy. 

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Wine time!
JMO

I will say that discussion of postpartum mental illness is much more open than it was when Andrea Yates was a struggling mom in severe psychosis.  Partially because of her, I believe, people are willing to talk about it.  She is the warning, what can happen if we ignore the signs and don't screen women for postpartum illness.  I worked in a hospital.  A couple of years ago I met a woman from an extreme fundie background.  When I met her I immediately got a chill and as I gazed at her newborn I had a flash that I would see this woman and the baby in the news in a few months.  I talked with her nurse, who also shared her concerns and had called psychiatry.  The end story was after a psychiatry consult, multiple discussions with the family and her doctors, it came out that she had been hiding her history of mental illness from her husband and her doctors and that she had become slowly psychotic at the end of her pregnancy.  Her husband at first wanted to sign her out and take them both home but luckily their family members convinced him otherwise. Her nurse saved her an her baby's life by letting everyone know that something wasn't right.  

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Happy
PennySycamore
13 hours ago, violynn said:

Rusty straight up told his MOL to come an hour late because he'd decided to make Andrea start caring more for the kids alone.  HE decded to ignore the dr.'s warnings and put those babies in harm's way.  How the DA didn't charge him is beyond me.

He didn't get charged because he's a man and this happened in Texas, after all.

(OK, you could say this about any number of states, including my own.)

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Eternalbluepearl

It's terrible to think Rusty was ignoring the warnings about Andrea being alone with the kids. I know he has stated that he never blamed Andrea for the murders. Does he blame himself? I'm not sure of his level of self-awareness. It can't be very high if he was still wanting baby-making sex while his wife was in jail for killing their 5 kids. :my_huh:

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felinefundie
11 minutes ago, BabyBottlePop said:

Rusty has a site with pictures and stories about his children. It's eerie.

http://www.yateskids.org

That site is definitely eerie. The first-person approach to the kids' stories is... Well, interesting, to say the least. 

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Wine time!
JMO

That site is heartbreaking.  It was 15 yrs yesterday.  

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BabyBottlePop
31 minutes ago, JMO said:

That site is heartbreaking.  It was 15 yrs yesterday.  

I hadn't realized that. They would have been teens and young adults now.

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Cleopatra7
12 hours ago, katilac said:

I think that we have to be careful not to place all the blame on Rusty, or men in general, in the quiverfull movement. 

Remember, Andrea Yates was raised mainstream Catholic, not fundamentalist. She did not have a sheltered childhood and she was well-educated. She was valedictorian of her high school and captain of the swim team. She went on to get a nursing degree and worked as a nurse for eight years. She lived independently, not even meeting Rusty until she was 25.

She embraced the "as many kids as God will send us" mantra and other fundamentalist tropes as an independent adult. 

Rusty made some idiotic mistakes, but then so did the trained psychiatrists. It was a psychiatrist who said that she was not psychotic, and discontinued her medication. 

I'm not trying to defend Rusty so much as I am saying that Andrea willingly drank the Kool-aid, too. She was not a person who never knew another life, and not a person who couldn't support herself. 

Ordinarily, I would agree with you, but I think we have to factor Andrea's severe mental illness into the picture. Not only was Rusty the headship of the Yates home, but he was for all intents and purposes the only sane adult in the home as well. When your wife is telling you that she's seeing visions of knives, is fantasizing about killing the children, and thinks the TV is sending her secret messages, you need to step up and intervene for everyone's good. Continuing have babies for Jesus when doing so was causing psychosis and suicidal tendencies shows Rusty's gross disregard for Andrea and the lives of the children who were already there and would later die due to his negligence. Rusty forced choices onto Andrea that were not conducive to her mental health, like living in the bus, homeschooling, and continuous pregnancy. Her mental illness was already manifesting when she met him, and given the severity of her problems I wonder if she could really even consent to the fundie beliefs that she was accepting. 

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Meh
refugee
19 hours ago, Glasgowghirl said:

I hope his new wife never experiences any mental problems as its clear he is not supportive. I have had depression since I was 11 and I'm lucky that I know the signs of when it gets bad and I'm aware of the risks of it getting worse when I come to have children. If Andrea had had the help and support from her husband and didn't have  people telling her that it was gods will for her to keep having kids those children would be still alive

It makes me so angry to hear xtian preaching that implies that mental illness is simply a sinful failure to "take every thought captive." It's ignorant, destructive, and evil to do that to people, and discourage them from finding real help by shaming them for "medicating themselves instead of facing their problems."

Just typing this makes me want to scream.

It's not getting better, either, from what I can tell. I heard this sentiment recently from different people, widely geographically separated.

(p.s. I am really really really frustrated with people who have evidently never suffered from depression or anxiety, who don't "get" it and think that they can just cajole someone into a better mood. Or that anxious or depressed people simply need to change their thinking, focus their thoughts on something outside themselves, "stop being so self-absorbed." There are people I love who are off their meds, either because of finances or because of therapist malpractice, and it is worrisome and downright frightening to contemplate. When I hear a smug platitude that "they just need to get over themselves" I want to slug somebody.)

Edited by refugee
frustration boiled over

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apandaaries
15 hours ago, katilac said:

Rusty made some idiotic mistakes, but then so did the trained psychiatrists. It was a psychiatrist who said that she was not psychotic, and discontinued her medication. 

This is only partially true.  Her doctors (she'd worked with many and had been involuntarily hospitalized before due to postpartum psychosis) told her sane, NASA-employed husband that they would recommend she never again have children.  Her postpartum psychosis was obviously severe.  She had posed a risk to her penultimate child, then was an active (and psychotic, meaning no longer comprehending reality), real, mortal threat to ALL her children when she had her last one.  The doctors they'd worked with before had warned him repeatedly.

Many doctors were in disbelief that Rusty had decided she needed more kids and that they (he and Andrea) should discontinue her medications (which they did before her fifth pregnancy).  Rusty had deliberately chosen to delay his mother's arrival so that Andrea could, you know, do her proper mother's work, since mental illness just needs to be prayed away. :roll:  The medical community can and often is only able to provide so much help for the mentally ill.  Dr. Saeed, who certainly erred severely, was likely chosen by Rusty to avoid the words and looks he'd have gotten from the previous psychiatric staff (conjecture, but entirely possible and plausible).  He should have been more diligent in reviewing her records, but Rusty should have been much more forthcoming in revealing her previous problems. (Good NY Times article from 2001: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/08/national/08MOM.html)

I have 0% faith in Rusty's statements that he didn't know she was suicidal or psychotic or depressed or hearing voices.  Every description of her in her later days (or any psychotic period) is BAD.  You don't need to be a NASA engineer to spot a problem (or slew of problems) there, but our NASA engineer failed to see ANY issues which would hinder her mothering duties, despite medical professionals telling him she should NOT be left alone with the children.  

Andrea may have willingly consumed the Kool-Aid, but she clearly lost her mind and her connection to reality long before she committed her crimes.  This was compounded by a horrendous preacher blaming mothers for the evils of any and all children, and reassuring her via pamphlet that if she didn't raise them right, they'd be doomed to hell.  She has stated that when drowning them, she was praying they were going to heaven. The woman was not understanding the reality that the rest of us share.  Her world was filled with demons, and now she's experiencing hell on earth, whenever she is lucid enough to understand what she did.  

Yes, she knew more about secular life and had the potential for a career, but that doesn't count for much when one is in a full-blown psychotic state.  

 

Edited by amandaaries
riffles and such

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katilac
2 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

 Her mental illness was already manifesting when she met him, and given the severity of her problems I wonder if she could really even consent to the fundie beliefs that she was accepting. 

How so? I read the book, but it's been a long time now. I think I recall some depressive episodes when she was young, but nothing ongoing. I do not remember her being severely ill or incapable before the birth of the fourth baby. 

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Cleopatra7
35 minutes ago, katilac said:

How so? I read the book, but it's been a long time now. I think I recall some depressive episodes when she was young, but nothing ongoing. I do not remember her being severely ill or incapable before the birth of the fourth baby. 

Andrea wasn't psychotic as a teen, but she was already having problems; she suffered from bulimia, depression, and already had suicidal thoughts (this is from "Are You There Alone?"). Many severely mentally ill people first begin manifesting their symptoms in their teens and young adult years, and Andrea's downward spiral seems to follow this pattern and was exacerbated by post-partum depression and psychosis. That she continues to be psychotic off and on to this day suggests to me that she is suffering from another issue, perhaps psychotic depression or schizophrenia. Perhaps she thought a fundamentalist lifestyle would provide structure to keep her demons at bay. As I said upthread, I think Rusty Yates has been disingenuous about what their religious beliefs were and what role they could have played in the killings. This is Rusty's explanation for why Andrea did what she did:

Quote

The Bible says the devil prowls around looking for someone to devour. I look at Andrea, and I think that Andrea was weak,” he had told TIME. “Think about a field of deer, and there’s one limping around, and that’s kind of the way I see it. Andrea was weak, and he attacked her.”

http://time.com/4375398/andrea-yates-15-years-drown-children/

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Meh
refugee
1 hour ago, Cleopatra7 said:

Andrea wasn't psychotic as a teen, but she was already having problems; she suffered from bulimia, depression, and already had suicidal thoughts (this is from "Are You There Alone?"). Many severely mentally ill people first begin manifesting their symptoms in their teens and young adult years, and Andrea's downward spiral seems to follow this pattern and was exacerbated by post-partum depression and psychosis. That she continues to be psychotic off and on to this day suggests to me that she is suffering from another issue, perhaps psychotic depression or schizophrenia. Perhaps she thought a fundamentalist lifestyle would provide structure to keep her demons at bay. As I said upthread, I think Rusty Yates has been disingenuous about what their religious beliefs were and what role they could have played in the killings. This is Rusty's explanation for why Andrea did what she did:

The Bible says the devil prowls around looking for someone to devour. I look at Andrea, and I think that Andrea was weak,” he had told TIME. “Think about a field of deer, and there’s one limping around, and that’s kind of the way I see it. Andrea was weak, and he attacked her.”

http://time.com/4375398/andrea-yates-15-years-drown-children/

Huh. No mention on his part of the culpability of her asshole of a husband.

/sarcasm

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Eternalbluepearl

What if someone told Rusty that the devil isn't real and that uncontrolled mental illness and the quiverfull lifestyle killed his children? I can't stand this devil excuse for bad things that happen. The church/religion invented the devil to scare and control people. 

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theinvisiblegirl

I'm definitely interested in both the video posted in the first post of this thread as well as reading the book, so thank you for helping me fall down yet another Quiverfull rabbit hole.

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frugaldreams

He still divorced her and re-married when she was committed to the hospital. So, we can trust God when it comes to Andrea having multiple life and health risking pregnancies characterized by violent psychosis, but we can't trust His will when it appears celibacy is required of Randy, because the wife he vowed to spend his life with has to be permanently hospitalized?

Hypocritical ass hat. He's only concerned about his god's will when it lines up with his own.

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Eternalbluepearl
1 hour ago, frugaldreams said:

He still divorced her and re-married when she was committed to the hospital.

I'm really shocked by the fact that he divorced her as well. I wouldn't think divorce would fit into their brand of christianity no matter what the circumstances were. 

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frugaldreams
3 hours ago, Eternalbluepearl said:

I'm really shocked by the fact that he divorced her as well. I wouldn't think divorce would fit into their brand of christianity no matter what the circumstances were. 

Technically, it doesn't. That preacher they followed made a big deal about it. But, you know penis trumps integrity every time. But hey, he still visits her and brings the new wife. Because it is compassionate and in no way painful or humiliating to Andrea. She understands.

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kb2

It's been a while since I read about this, but wasn't there a problem with the insurance company not paying for a longer psychiatric hospital stay for Andrea, at the start of the psychotic episode she was having when she drowned her kids?  I want to say her husband blamed this as part of the cause of the deaths--and that was why he was told to always have someone with her, because she required 24/7 care, but this was not seen as sufficient to keep her hospitalized.  I think he made some big mistakes (having another baby, leaving her alone), but there are also failures in her mental health care that, probably, are not at all improved today.

Every time I read about it, I'm reminded how sad it is.

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Exjw2015deed

Wasn't it rustys mother who was supposed to watch Andrea and not leave her alone with the children? 

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theinvisiblegirl
39 minutes ago, Exjw2015deed said:

Wasn't it rustys mother who was supposed to watch Andrea and not leave her alone with the children? 

Someone upthread or on the page before said that Rusty told the mother to come an hour late that day because he wanted her to start taking a more active part in caring for the kids. What a mistake that turned out to be...

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Emilycharlotte

If I recall the book correctly, Rusty was disillusioned with the crazy preacher, but Andrea wasn't and stayed in contact with him and his wife. (Ironic--if he'd behaved like a controlling head of the home and forbidden the relationship, it would have actually been a good thing in this case.) Also, he didn't choose Dr. Saeed, Saeed was the psychiatrist assigned when Andrea went to the hospital following a breakdown; I believe they had moved and so it was a different doctor and hospital than before? She had previously responded well to Haldol and Rusty kept asking Dr Saeed to prescribe it but he was reluctant for some reason.

I don't know much about Rusty Yates or have a strong opinion about him, but I do understand that when you're in the middle of dealing with someone with mental illness it's hard sometimes to grasp how bad it is. Your view of normal gets a little skewed, plus there are good days, good weeks, just enough to make you think things are getting better, which is what you desperately want...it's really hard.  Denial is a powerful thing and mental illness is complicated. I'm not defending him,  exactly, but I can't make him a villain either. He made some bad decisions, but he paid a terrible price. 

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theinvisiblegirl
12 hours ago, Emilycharlotte said:

If I recall the book correctly, Rusty was disillusioned with the crazy preacher, but Andrea wasn't and stayed in contact with him and his wife. (Ironic--if he'd behaved like a controlling head of the home and forbidden the relationship, it would have actually been a good thing in this case.) Also, he didn't choose Dr. Saeed, Saeed was the psychiatrist assigned when Andrea went to the hospital following a breakdown; I believe they had moved and so it was a different doctor and hospital than before? She had previously responded well to Haldol and Rusty kept asking Dr Saeed to prescribe it but he was reluctant for some reason.

I don't know much about Rusty Yates or have a strong opinion about him, but I do understand that when you're in the middle of dealing with someone with mental illness it's hard sometimes to grasp how bad it is. Your view of normal gets a little skewed, plus there are good days, good weeks, just enough to make you think things are getting better, which is what you desperately want...it's really hard.  Denial is a powerful thing and mental illness is complicated. I'm not defending him,  exactly, but I can't make him a villain either. He made some bad decisions, but he paid a terrible price. 

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the reason had something to do with pharmaceutical reps. Maybe the company for Haldol didn't work with him, or he went with another company's products.

Edited by theinvisiblegirl
riffles

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