Ultra Orthodox Jewish Security Forces in Brooklyn Wield Undue Influence

[sparkles]

I think that any person or group who sets itself up as some kind of special entity, deserving of preferential treatment or being above the law or common courtesy, will encourage "anti" feelings, be they Jews, Christians, Muslims or what have you. It's just human nature to feel resentful of those who get that preferential treatment because others are afraid they'll be accused of being racist or anti-semitic if they say no or insist that the special snowflakes follow the rules.

[artdecades]

10 hours ago, docmom said:

Wait a second in what way was anything I wrote anti-Semitic????  Way to massively over-read.  I NEVER said I hated all Jews.  Where the HELL did that come from?

I was discriminated against because I was a woman and it was fine with everyone because of religion.  That's what I take exception to.  Not the fact that it was Jewish man in particular who did it.  I would feel just as pissed off if it were someone of any religious background who got away with it because "God".  I despise legalized discrimination against anyone based on any reason. 

whoa whoa whoa. I never called you anti-semitic. I was using the royal "you" to describe the scenario you described in your original comment. you claimed there were legitimate reasons why someone could be anti-semitic (IE this situation) and I said that is bullshit.

[Taters]

On 23 June 2016 at 6:54 AM, artdecades said:

whoa whoa whoa. I never called you anti-semitic. I was using the royal "you" to describe the scenario you described in your original comment. you claimed there were legitimate reasons why someone could be anti-semitic (IE this situation) and I said that is bullshit.

I don't think @docmom said there were legitimate reasons.
And it did read like you were calling her anti-semitic, imho.

[zee_four]

On 6/22/2016 at 2:27 PM, sparkles said:

I think that any person or group who sets itself up as some kind of special entity, deserving of preferential treatment or being above the law or common courtesy, will encourage "anti" feelings, be they Jews, Christians, Muslims or what have you. It's just human nature to feel resentful of those who get that preferential treatment because others are afraid they'll be accused of being racist or anti-semitic if they say no or insist that the special snowflakes follow the rules.

In defense of the Jews (I'm half Jewish myself) they've never been a dominant ethnic or religious group in however many thousands of years of history until very recently in Israel and even then it's the only Jewish country in the world versus countless Muslim majority and Christian majority states. Anti Semitism has a long nasty history from Roman times through the Middle Ages into the modern era of Europe. Hitler didn't invent it, he simply capitalized on millennia of violent anti Jewish hatred. Inquisitions, pogroms, Jewish ghettos, the Holocaust.

 

I'm against religious extremism of all types including Jewish forms. But i don't think it's completely fair to say all religions are equally neutral until extremism takes place which is what understandably causes hatred. Or that all religions are interchangeable. It's like when US fundies claim prosecution because Starbucks switched to red cups removing the scattering of white graphics of secular holiday symbols then talk about Christians in places like North Korea where entire families can be killed or disappesr to hard labor camps if someone is caught with a Bible or religious tract on their person, like its the same. Just another suffering brother in Jesus!!!

[sockinshoe]

If you want to read something interesting about Orthodox Judaism in Brooklyn, check out Deborah Feldman's excellent memoir "UnOrthodox". She details her Satmar upbringing and eventual escape in her early 20s. It's absolutely riveting.

On 6/23/2016 at 1:54 AM, artdecades said:

whoa whoa whoa. I never called you anti-semitic. I was using the royal "you" to describe the scenario you described in your original comment. you claimed there were legitimate reasons why someone could be anti-semitic (IE this situation) and I said that is bullshit.

It read like you were calling her anti-semitic. She had been describing a situation where people took grave offence at a delusional person saying delusional, anti-semitic things but nobody batted an eye when an Orthodox person refused to interact with her for sexist reasons. 

I'm Jewish myself, and some of the most hateful things said to me about my Judaism, my womanhood, and my Germanness have come from Orthodox people. I am tolerant of almost all private religious practise-- but I have no time for those trying out-frum the Old Country and build their impoverished, miserable shtetls in the modern world. I've lost too many loved ones to Orthodoxy and fear and superstition.

[Jana814]

I Jewish also. I too have an issue with the Orthodox. I just don't get it.

[Grimalkin]

On June 22, 2016 at 11:54 PM, artdecades said:

whoa whoa whoa. I never called you anti-semitic. I was using the royal "you" to describe the scenario you described in your original comment. you claimed there were legitimate reasons why someone could be anti-semitic (IE this situation) and I said that is bullshit.

         It won't be the first time somebody wrote something on the internet and didn't come across the way they meant to.

[nelliebelle1197]

On 6/19/2016 at 5:47 PM, ITD said:

They're not immigrants- born and raised right here. They're an insular society and they don't want to be integrated, much like the Amish. I don't agree with it and I have no patience for the worst aspects of the ultra-orthodoxy, but I am not unfamiliar with the mindset. And the worst aspects are as bad as any fundamentalist sect.

That is because they ARE a fundamentalist sect.

[ITD]

Yes, that is what I'm saying. They're as bad as any (other) fundamentalist sect. 

[MamaJunebug]

On June 18, 2016 at 5:26 PM, Cleopatra7 said:

Here is a long article about this very subject from the New Yorker article:

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/11/10/outcast-3

The TL;DR version is that when abuse happens in ultra Orthodox communities, the victims and their families, not the abusers, are the ones who end up being exiled. As with many communities, fundie or not, what seems to offend a lot of people is not child molestation/abuse/molestation, but people complaining about abuse and demanding that something be done about it.

Also TL;DR, the sad truth that money talks.  

Thank you for the link. Disturbing but I couldn't put it down. 

[SilverBeach]

http://www.timesofisrael.com/before-suicide-woman-penned-book-about-her-ordeals-in-ultra-orthodox-world/

More about ultra orthodoxy. Sad and interesting.

[Grimalkin]

22 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

http://www.timesofisrael.com/before-suicide-woman-penned-book-about-her-ordeals-in-ultra-orthodox-world/

More about ultra orthodoxy. Sad and interesting.

        That story hit me like a ton of bricks. It is heartbreaking.

[sparkles]

More and more, I believe that the greatest threat to Israel doesn't come the Arab/Palestinian conflicts, but from within. The ultra-Orthodox, who contribute nothing and take everything, will eventually collapse the system when they outnumber the secular or less-religious Jews and there's nobody left to leech off of. I can't see worldwide Jewry running to rescue these crazed fundamentalists, who would spit on their rescuers in return.

[2xx1xy1JD]

On 2016-06-22 at 9:42 AM, docmom said:

This type of thing doesn't protect against anti-Semitism.  It actively encourages it.

And don't get me started on the "It's absolutely fine to discriminate against women because of religion" folks.  When I was at a hospital in NYC there was a huge outcry because one of the (psychotic schizophrenic off their meds) patients refused to let a Jewish doctor see her but it was perfectly fine with everyone that a Hassidic man refused to let me see him because I was a woman.

Isn't that an issue of patient consent?

As a resident, my husband often had women who refused to be examined by a man, particularly in the family medicine and OB rotations.  Sometimes it was religious, sometimes it was just personal preference.  He didn't like it, but recognized that this wasn't something that could be forced, because everyone has the basic right to control what happens with their own bodies.

The risk that someone who refuses consent runs is that there may be nobody else available to treat them.  I know of some people who have refused treatment from group X, and some doctors won't feel compelled to give them a referral to anyone else, so they end up untreated.

 

[2xx1xy1JD]

In theory, the idea of citizen groups that assist police in a neighborhood isn't necessarily a bad thing.  Police can't be everywhere, and a community can assist in making things safer.  I see Neighbourhood Watch signs here.  I remember seeing some smaller scale efforts years ago in a housing project.

Proper training and separation of civilian vs. police roles is needed, though, and it sounds like that's a problem.  When I looked it up, I noticed that someone trying to set up community volunteers for security specifically said that it would NOT be like the Brooklyn Shomrim.

There's no Shomrim where I am, but I have seen other Jewish communal organizations that offer parallel services, such as Hatzolah which deals with EMS stuff.  The basic idea is that trained volunteers in the community would be able to respond faster, but from what I understand, integration with the general EMS system is better in some places than others.

 

 

 

[Grimalkin]

4 hours ago, 2xx1xy1JD said:

In theory, the idea of citizen groups that assist police in a neighborhood isn't necessarily a bad thing.  Police can't be everywhere, and a community can assist in making things safer.  I see Neighbourhood Watch signs here.  I remember seeing some smaller scale efforts years ago in a housing project.

Proper training and separation of civilian vs. police roles is needed, though, and it sounds like that's a problem.  When I looked it up, I noticed that someone trying to set up community volunteers for security specifically said that it would NOT be like the Brooklyn Shomrim.

There's no Shomrim where I am, but I have seen other Jewish communal organizations that offer parallel services, such as Hatzolah which deals with EMS stuff.  The basic idea is that trained volunteers in the community would be able to respond faster, but from what I understand, integration with the general EMS system is better in some places than others.

 

 

 

       I think the initial idea is good and bet lots of good has come out of it. I think things over time have a way of growing and changing over time. Corruption seeps in. I am sure it t didn't happen over night.