Ultra Orthodox Jewish Security Forces in Brooklyn Wield Undue Influence

[Cleopatra7]

In Brooklyn, ultra-Orthodox Jewish neighborhoods are patrolled by private security forces called shomrim. However, there are questions as to whether the shomrim have undue influence on the NYPD and whether they bully non-Jewish neighbors for the crime of being non-Jewish in a mostly Jewish area:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/18/nyregion/brooklyns-private-jewish-patrols-wield-power-some-call-them-bullies.html

This entire set-up seems extremely sketchy to me. There are so many problems that can occur when you deputize civilians to think they're cops. Call it the George Zimmerman effect. It's even worse when insular religious communities are involved, because anyone who isn't a part of of the community is seen as an existential threat, like David Flores and Taj Williams were. I was a little shocked but not surprised when the parents of the murdered boy called the shomrim first rather than the police when they noticed their son was missing. Based on what I recall from the case, the boy was left alive for quite a while before he was killed. Perhaps if the real police had been called, he could have been saved in time (doubtful, probably, but the shomrim definitely don't have the proper skills needed to handle a child abduction case).

[Grimalkin]

     I think these things start out of good intentions and necessities. Over time it gets twisted and evolves into something corrupt. Power corrupts.

[RosyDaisy]

Explain to me why the Orthodox Jewish communities and neighborhoods need special treatment by having their own security force? Isn't that why we have police departments? I am honestly asking, not snarking.

[Cleopatra7]

33 minutes ago, RosyDaisy said:

Explain to me why the Orthodox Jewish communities and neighborhoods need special treatment by having their own security force? Isn't that why we have police departments? I am honestly asking, not snarking.

They would say they need to protect themselves against anti-Semitism. However, the shomrim seem to think they are under attack by Cossacks like in Tsarist Russia, which isn't the case. Anti-Semitism is a problem, but these vigilante groups aren't really going to combat it in the way it actually manifests in real life. The article also said that the shomrim help build bridges between the police and ultra Orthodox communities where people tend to speak Yiddish as a first language and don't trust outsiders. But then the question becomes why don't other minority communities get their own security forces as well as a way to improve community relations? 

[ITD]

Some of these communities are as isolated as the Amish can be, even though they live in the middle of one of the most populous areas of the world. Very isolated and insular. Other minorities groups will have community leaders that help build bridges, but the ultra orthodoxy takes isolation to an extreme. They really do believe that only they truly understand the their own needs. 

I don't agree with it, but having been exposed to it I understand it a bit. 

[RosyDaisy]

Thanks,@Cleopatra7 and@ITD. I think I understand it better. I'm not sure I agree with it, but I do see the POV of both sides.

[anjulibai]

3 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

They would say they need to protect themselves against anti-Semitism. However, the shomrim seem to think they are under attack by Cossacks like in Tsarist Russia, which isn't the case. Anti-Semitism is a problem, but these vigilante groups aren't really going to combat it in the way it actually manifests in real life. The article also said that the shomrim help build bridges between the police and ultra Orthodox communities where people tend to speak Yiddish as a first language and don't trust outsiders. But then the question becomes why don't other minority communities get their own security forces as well as a way to improve community relations? 

When it comes to other minority communities that I have read about, the most successful programs have police forces recruiting members of the community as a way of improving relations. These are actual police officers who understand both the law and the complex issues that confront the community - they can explain the law to the community and help get the community to trust the law. 

They don't need extra-judicial security forces when this happens. 

[Howl]

There is an element of hate and thuggery with this group that is most disconcerting.  Also, there's a snowball's chance in hell that they protect their own women from domestic violence and, in fact, probably actively block abused women from seeking police assistance.  I suspect there's a lot of extra-judicial discipline meted out to their own group should any one get out of line. Likely they've become enforcers and not protectors. To what degree, it's impossible to say from the outside. 

[Cleopatra7]

51 minutes ago, Howl said:

There is an element of hate and thuggery with this group that is most disconcerting.  Also, there's a snowball's chance in hell that they protect their own women from domestic violence and, in fact, probably actively block abused women from seeking police assistance.  I suspect there's a lot of extra-judicial discipline meted out to their own group should any one get out of line. Likely they've become enforcers and not protectors. To what degree, it's impossible to say from the outside. 

Here is a long article about this very subject from the New Yorker article:

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/11/10/outcast-3

The TL;DR version is that when abuse happens in ultra Orthodox communities, the victims and their families, not the abusers, are the ones who end up being exiled. As with many communities, fundie or not, what seems to offend a lot of people is not child molestation/abuse/molestation, but people complaining about abuse and demanding that something be done about it.

[August]

11 hours ago, ITD said:

Some of these communities are as isolated as the Amish can be, even though they live in the middle of one of the most populous areas of the world. Very isolated and insular. Other minorities groups will have community leaders that help build bridges, but the ultra orthodoxy takes isolation to an extreme. They really do believe that only they truly understand the their own needs. 

I don't agree with it, but having been exposed to it I understand it a bit. 

But isn't the solution to that less isolation and teaching people English? Isn't learning the local language the number one way to help new immigrants?

[paganbaby]

I got into a conversation once with a young woman who is in much the same position as my kids.  She has a Jewish father and a gentile mother, which bothers most people not at all, but anti-Semites treat her as Jewish while the ultra-Orthodox refuse to acknowledge her as Jewish. She grew up near some of these ultra-Orthodox enclaves. When her sister started dating an Orthodox man from a different community, her family panicked. When they met his family, their reaction was a stunned, "They're nice." Needless to say, his family wasn't of the ultra- variety. My friend was offended that her sister had to convert to her own religion to marry this guy, but otherwise it seems to have worked. 

I married a Jewish man who lived in Brooklyn back when we were dating. None of his family or friends had any time for the ultra-Orthodox, their practices, their racism, or their politics. (And, thank the FSM, neither he or anyone else expected me to convert.)

[Cleopatra7]

21 minutes ago, August said:

But isn't the solution to that less isolation and teaching people English? Isn't learning the local language the number one way to help new immigrants?

The problem is the ultra Orthodox (at least, the rabbinic leaders who call the shots) don't want to learn English. Ensuring that most people speak Yiddish as a first language and have bare bones secular education will keep doubters in the community, if only because they lack the social and linguistic skills to leave. Given this, I wonder if the shomrim are used to keep internal dissenters in their place. I have heard of this happening in Israel, so I wonder if the same is happening here but in a less public way.

[Howl]

5 minutes ago, Cleopatra7 said:

Given this, I wonder if the shomrim are used to keep internal dissenters in their place.

Yes, exactly.  That was partly my point about them being enforcers, and I suspect they could be quite brutal about it.

[nastyhobbitses]

As a Reform Jew, I really am disturbed by the insularity of Ultra-Orthodox Jews. I understand some of the places it comes from -- many of these communities were founded and built up by survivors of pogroms and the Holocaust, who likely saw the secular/outside world as dangerous and threatening to their beliefs and way of life -- but creating your own police force, silencing those who speak out about abuse, demanding that public or shared areas be drastically modified or closed off to suit your beliefs, harassing non-Jewish neighbors, practicing extreme educational neglect -- these things are not OK and should not be permissible in our society. It's one thing to be a bit insular; plenty of diaspora/immigrant/religious communities are. I don't expect the Amish or extremely devout Muslims to live the same lifestyle I lead. But when you act as though you are separate from the society you chose to live in, act as though you are above the law or exempt from it, and then allow other people to be harmed as a result, that's going beyond being a bit insular.

[ITD]

But isn't the solution to that less isolation and teaching people English? Isn't learning the local language the number one way to help new immigrants?

They're not immigrants- born and raised right here. They're an insular society and they don't want to be integrated, much like the Amish. I don't agree with it and I have no patience for the worst aspects of the ultra-orthodoxy, but I am not unfamiliar with the mindset. And the worst aspects are as bad as any fundamentalist sect.

[canbritam]

If, say, the large Muslim community in Dearborn, Michigan, behaved like this, I can't imagine it not being all over every bit of media.  I can't imagine people (Trump followers) not demanding that the military or the State police or someone being sent in and removing the "religious police" or screaming that it's proof that they're trying to take over the US and implement Shari'a.  And yet, what they've implemented in the ultra-Orthodox communities is religious law.  So why is it okay to ignore it happening in one religious community, but for another to even think about it would cause a civil war?  It's the double standard that baffles me.

[Geechee Girl]

I'm ignorant on this. Are the shomrim on the same level as the FLDS "G-d Squad?"

[nastyhobbitses]

9 hours ago, ITD said:

They're not immigrants- born and raised right here. They're an insular society and they don't want to be integrated, much like the Amish. I don't agree with it and I have no patience for the worst aspects of the ultra-orthodoxy, but I am not unfamiliar with the mindset. And the worst aspects are as bad as any fundamentalist sect.

They're even worse in Israel. I watched a news report on YouTube about a mother with disabled children who is being forced out of her predominantly Haredi neighborhood through constant harassment...for the crimes of bringing her long-term boyfriend to her home to meet her children and her daughter using her motorized wheelchair on the Sabbath (despite the fact that multiple rabbis said that it was perfectly permissible for her to use it).

Honestly, they're no better than the crazy religious police in Saudi Arabia (you know, the ones who prevented emergency services from putting out a fire at a girls' school and the girls from escaping to safety because they weren't properly covered). I really do think that a lot of the Haredim, like most fundies, see Scripture as a carte blanche and an excuse to bully, harass, and have power over people.

[ITD]

On June 18, 2016 at 0:38 PM, anjulibai said:

When it comes to other minority communities that I have read about, the most successful programs have police forces recruiting members of the community as a way of improving relations. These are actual police officers who understand both the law and the complex issues that confront the community - they can explain the law to the community and help get the community to trust the law. 

They don't need extra-judicial security forces when this happens. 

 

9 hours ago, canbritam said:

If, say, the large Muslim community in Dearborn, Michigan, behaved like this, I can't imagine it not being all over every bit of media.  I can't imagine people (Trump followers) not demanding that the military or the State police or someone being sent in and removing the "religious police" or screaming that it's proof that they're trying to take over the US and implement Shari'a.  And yet, what they've implemented in the ultra-Orthodox communities is religious law.  So why is it okay to ignore it happening in one religious community, but for another to even think about it would cause a civil war?  It's the double standard that baffles me.

Without being to trite about it, the answer is Tradition!

The Hassidic movement came about in Europe in a time when Jews were in general segregated.  Much of Eastern European Jewry was isolated and kept separate from Christian society by policy or cultural mores of the country they were considered "guests" in.  Western Europe (France, Germany) was much more assimilated, even for observant Jews. 

 

When the jews came here (Think Fiddler on the Roof) Hassidic sects kept their insular ways. It was harder to be an assimilated observant Jew here than it is now, and you need community (kosher services, a minyan for certain prayers etc) so keeping the old ways was appealing. 

 

Of of course it comes with 19th century thinking, misogyny, lack of accountability and all that terrible stuff we see today, and the rest of society has progressed and they haven't. Not all ultraorthodox are the same (like there are Mennonites vs Amish), but the most extreme groups are the most restrictive and potentially abusive. 

[docmom]

This type of thing doesn't protect against anti-Semitism.  It actively encourages it.

And don't get me started on the "It's absolutely fine to discriminate against women because of religion" folks.  When I was at a hospital in NYC there was a huge outcry because one of the (psychotic schizophrenic off their meds) patients refused to let a Jewish doctor see her but it was perfectly fine with everyone that a Hassidic man refused to let me see him because I was a woman.

[artdecades]

On 6/18/2016 at 5:09 AM, RosyDaisy said:

Explain to me why the Orthodox Jewish communities and neighborhoods need special treatment by having their own security force? Isn't that why we have police departments? I am honestly asking, not snarking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Heights_riot#Riots_and_murders 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knockout_game#Antisemitism

Because shit like this still happens. I am not condoning the behavior but I understand why there is fear. There is a lot of distrust of police in minority communities and the Ultra-Orthodox are no different. Instead of trying to build bridges with the community, it seems like the police just let them do their own thing because corruption. Of course, as others have mentioned, it goes beyond the need for protection and goes into control. I think the FLDS police force comparison is most apt. Or even Scientology security forces. So now members can go to the police because they are untrustworthy and in the pocket of the community, and the community won't do anything because they are the ones policing themselves. It's really messed up.

2 hours ago, docmom said:

This type of thing doesn't protect against anti-Semitism.  It actively encourages it.

And don't get me started on the "It's absolutely fine to discriminate against women because of religion" folks.  When I was at a hospital in NYC there was a huge outcry because one of the (psychotic schizophrenic off their meds) patients refused to let a Jewish doctor see her but it was perfectly fine with everyone that a Hassidic man refused to let me see him because I was a woman.

I take huge offense to that. No Jew is responsible for anti-Semitism. If you hate all Jews because of your interactions with some Ultra-Orthodox Jews, you are a bigot. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. I started typing out about how the Ultra-Orthodox are a small percentage and most Jews are not like that but I stopped because you know what? I don't need to explain that. Jews shouldn't have to prove they are "good" and "not like the others" in order to not be hated on because of your experience with "bad" ones. 

[sparkles]

I'm a lifelong New Yorker (and a culturally Jewish atheist) and I'm frankly sick of the way the ultra-orthodox discriminate and play the system by screaming anti-semitism at every turn. It's one thing to want to maintain and/or celebrate your customs and traditions. It's another thing entirely to do so at the expense of others. You want total autonomy? Go find yourself an uninhabited island somewhere and set yourself up as an sovereign nation, with only yourselves to depend on (and see how long it lasts when you can't leach off the system.) Until then, shut the fuck up, leave the rest of us alone and quit playing the anti-semitism tantrum card when you don't get your way. I have nothing but contempt for religious fundamentalists of any stripe but living in New York, I'm much more aware of the undue influence of and preferential treatment granted to the ultra-orthodox community. 

My daughter lives on the border of Williamsburg and many of her friends are in other Brooklyn neighborhoods with high concentrations of ultra-orthodox fuckwits. Every single one of them has been harassed at one time or another for absolutely no reason than the fact they dare to exist.

[docmom]

2 hours ago, artdecades said:

I take huge offense to that. No Jew is responsible for anti-Semitism. If you hate all Jews because of your interactions with some Ultra-Orthodox Jews, you are a bigot. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. I started typing out about how the Ultra-Orthodox are a small percentage and most Jews are not like that but I stopped because you know what? I don't need to explain that. Jews shouldn't have to prove they are "good" and "not like the others" in order to not be hated on because of your experience with "bad" ones. 

Wait a second in what way was anything I wrote anti-Semitic????  Way to massively over-read.  I NEVER said I hated all Jews.  Where the HELL did that come from?

I was discriminated against because I was a woman and it was fine with everyone because of religion.  That's what I take exception to.  Not the fact that it was Jewish man in particular who did it.  I would feel just as pissed off if it were someone of any religious background who got away with it because "God".  I despise legalized discrimination against anyone based on any reason. 

[sparkles]

Never mind

[ITD]

48 minutes ago, docmom said:

Wait a second in what way was anything I wrote anti-Semitic????  Way to massively over-read.  I NEVER said I hated all Jews.  Where the HELL did that come from?

I was discriminated against because I was a woman and it was fine with everyone because of religion.  That's what I take exception to.  Not the fact that it was Jewish man in particular who did it.  I would feel just as pissed off if it were someone of any religious background who got away with it because "God".  I despise legalized discrimination against anyone based on any reason. 

Not to explain someone else's comment, but I think your sentence above your hospital story, about encouraging anti-semitism, may given the impression that the two ideas were linked. I didn't read it that way, but I was curious and went back to look at your comment and it struck me it could have inadvertently been read that way.

To paraphrase-

"It encourages anti-semitism"

"Story about a Hassidic Jew hiding behind religion"

Might imply that the hospital story is a reason why you might feel negatively towards all Jews ("anti-semitic")