Gator drags child into water at Disney's Grand Floridian resort

[Grimalkin]

41 minutes ago, Hera said:

@Grimalkin, I think it's the same because people assume it won't happen to them. The warnings are "for others." If the "buying drugs" or "being too drunk" analogies are too far, that's why I also included the "riptide drowning/red flag" one. Vacationers see signs (or don't) and disregard them. It really is a vaction state of mind and 90% of the time, it's fine, but the other 10% - accidents/bad things/force majeur happen.  I'm in part a plaintiff's attorney. In some of my cases, finding corporate responsibility is how I get paid.  But here, it's a horrific accident that Disney will no doubt pay for, and has already taken steps to prevent from happening again, but...don't swim means don't wade, either.  There's a reason that sign is there. Sadly enough, it won't be the new signage, but the national news coverage of this tragedy, that will hopefully put it in the collective consciousness that this is something that can happen.

       I meant to mention I have seen riptide warning signs, shark warning signs, and even signs warning threat of jellyfish.

Editing to add: I have swam in those conditions fully aware of the risks I was taking perhaps foolishly, but I knew  what I was exposing myself to. I love swimming. I particularly love swimming in the ocean and body surfing in rough waters.

there was another point I wanted to make but it escapes me. I had to pick my daughter up from a bonfire.

this woman posted a picture of her son taken a week before this happened, same location. This is a tragedy. I still don't think this compares to buying drugs at 4:30 in the morning, or falling in a canal drunk, or even swimming at a beach warning of possible riptides.

       Maybe I am wrong but I just don't see this as flagrantly disregarding a no swimming sign. I really am trying to see both sides here.

[Toothfairy]

Most Floridians get use to the wildlife in Florida. It's part of life. Lake Alice is right next to University of Florida. There's signs everywhere to stay out of the water and there's wildlife. Most gator attacks are rare. They usually don't bother humans. 

This story is starting to sound so weird. A two year old unsupervised near water at 9:30pm. His 4 year old sister in the bed. Gators usually feed at night and relax during the day. I hope his parents didn't set this up. Disney should've been more clear about no swimming. So people don't know what that means

[Hera]

1 hour ago, Grimalkin said:

       I meant to mention I have seen riptide warning signs, shark warning signs, and even signs warning threat of jellyfish.

Editing to add: I have swam in those conditions fully aware of the risks I was taking perhaps foolishly, but I knew  what I was exposing myself to. I love swimming. I particularly love swimming in the ocean and body surfing in rough waters.

there was another point I wanted to make but it escapes me. I had to pick my daughter up from a bonfire.

this woman posted a picture of her son taken a week before this happened, same location. This is a tragedy. I still don't think this compares to buying drugs at 4:30 in the morning, or falling in a canal drunk, or even swimming at a beach warning of possible riptides.

       Maybe I am wrong but I just don't see this as flagrantly disregarding a no swimming sign. I really am trying to see both sides here.

I mean, being in the water is disregarding.  Look, it could say "no swimming, wading, walking...alligators, snakes, bacteria, and any number of other things could be in the water and/or no lifeguard on duty" but, really, at some point people either heed the sign to stay out of the water or they don't,  In my experience, on vacation, they don't and sometimes tragic things happen as a result.  Signs cannot cover everything.  If I went somewhere in Canada and a sign by a frozen lake said "no ice skating" and a loved one walked on the ice and it cracked and they fell in, can I really claim "He was just walking on it! It didn't say, 'ice may, possibly break, whether waking, running, skating or other, so don't get on it at all!"?  I truly don't think so. Sure, in my lack of familiarity with what is strong versus weak ice, I may misjudge the situation, but a warning was up that this area is not safe. If I disregard the fact that a warning was there because it's not *exactly* what I'm doing, that's kind of on me, not the people who put up a sign.  Nature isn't paying attention to that sign, either, saying "well, she *isn't* skating..."

 

ETA: that pic appears to be of a kid in the water during the day, not at night, when alligators are likely to feed, which kind of makes the "90% of the time it's fine" point. Kind of like how you've never had tragedy strike you when swimming against the flags. It's all good until it isn't. Those signs mean something. 

[Grimalkin]

13 minutes ago, Hera said:

I mean, being in the water is disregarding.  Look, it could say "no swimming, wading, walking...alligators, snakes, bacteria, and any number of other things could be in the water and/or no lifeguard on duty" but, really, at some point people either heed the sign to stay out of the water or they don't,  In my experience, on vacation, they don't and sometimes tragic things happen as a result.  Signs cannot cover everything.  If I went somewhere on Canada and a sign by a frozen lake said "no ice skating" and a loved one walked on the ice and it cracked and they fell in, can I really claim "He was just walking on it! It didn't say, 'ice may, possibly break, whether waking, running, skating or other, so don't get on it at all!"?  I truly don't think so. Sure, in my lack of familiarity with what is strong versus weak ice, I may misjudge the situation, but a warning was up that this area is not safe. If I disregard the fact that a warning was there because it's not *exactly* what I'm doing, that's kind of on me, not the people who put up a sign.  Nature isn't paying attention to that sign, either, saying "well, she *isn't* skating..."

 

ETA: that pic appears to be of a kid in the water during the day, not at night, when alligators are likely to feed, which kind of makes the "90% of the time it's fine" point. Kind of like how you've never had tradgedy strike you strike when swimming against the flags. It's all good until it isn't. Those signs mean something. 

        to be fair the riptide signs posted were a general warning on beaches with lifeguards and other swimmers present. Around here we don't have no ice skating signs. They say "stay off the ice" I think "Warning: stay out of the water" would of sent a clearer message. Disney gets tourists from all over the world who likely know very little about the threat alligators cause.

We won't agree on the no swimming= Potential alligator attack signs. I don't think these people thought the rules didn't apply to them. 

[CrazyCatLady]

We just have serial killers and sasquatch. Glad we're gator free!

[Grimalkin]

4 hours ago, CrazyCatLady said:

We just have serial killers and sasquatch. Glad we're gator free!

  ........but are there warning signs?

[formergothardite]

7 hours ago, Hera said:

I mean, being in the water is disregarding.

As pointed out several times by several people, "No Swimming" means different things in different areas of the country. "No Swimming" here typically means it is okay to wade. Wading isn't the same as swimming here. So I would not consider it disregarding a sign to let my child wade. Especially if lots of children did the same thing, which it appears they did. Disney letting kids wade just re-enforces the notion that "No Swimming" doesn't mean "No Wading" and that the water was safe for wading. 

[louisa05]

10 hours ago, Toothfairy said:

Most Floridians get use to the wildlife in Florida. It's part of life. Lake Alice is right next to University of Florida. There's signs everywhere to stay out of the water and there's wildlife. Most gator attacks are rare. They usually don't bother humans. 

This story is starting to sound so weird. A two year old unsupervised near water at 9:30pm. His 4 year old sister in the bed. Gators usually feed at night and relax during the day. I hope his parents didn't set this up. Disney should've been more clear about no swimming. So people don't know what that means

He was not unsupervised. His parents were with him. Reports here (I live about 20 minutes from this family's hometown) are that his mother was standing right beside him. His father attempted to get him free from the gator. 

And how could someone possibly set up something so freakishly out of the ordinary? As so many Floridians here have pointed out and as the media has pointed out and as you said in your own post, alligators do not usually attack humans. 

[Grimalkin]

      One of the reasons this bothers me is how easily this could of been my family. When we went to Disney my inlaws originally were going to join us. I could guarantee you that if I said to them alligators could be in any body of fresh water in any time my FIL would roll his eyes at me and make mocking jokes at my expense the rest of the trip, then go back home and tell everyone more stories of why I am a bitch always spoiling thier fun. I am so glad they live in the UK.

[LilMissMetaphor]

On 6/15/2016 at 10:42 AM, snarkykitty said:

There were signs posted at the spot where he was snatched, that read "NO SWIMMING". The parents set up themselves about 20-30 feet from the spot...their other young child was in a playpen of some sorts nearby. 

I am not trying to diminish the horror or the suffering for the little boy or his parents, but there are signs posted everywhere to not go into the water, and the boy was wading in about a foot of water. 

Toddlers can get into trouble/out of sight so quickly. You have to hawk them in strange places. I know that the parents will blame themselves. It was an accident. But a preventable one.    It's just so tragic all around. 

As a Canadian, though, honestly, I would assume that "no swimming" just meant literally that, that they don't want people actually full-body swimming in the water.  I would look at it and be like, okay, but it can't hurt on a hot day for my kiddo to wade around.  Maybe I'm a dumb parent, but I really don't think that I would figure out that "no swimming" means "because gators might be in this water".

 

 

[livinginthelight]

13 hours ago, Meridae said:

<snip> , this is things everyone should know, namely "don't go into water at night", "don't go into water by yourself", "pay attention to signs and take them to heart", etc.

Absolutely agree. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. This could have been prevented by an adult calling the child away from nighttime waters. (No, I don't think signage could have prevented this. Some people simply wouldn't have cared.)

This is belaboring the point a bit, but I am feeling grumpy.

I think most people on this thread are being very reasonable. They get that the norms in different parts of the country are different. But some, including @Meridae, I don't think are listening. Everyone does NOT know "don't go into water at night." Nor should they. Some of my best memories are cookouts and late night swims in oceans and lakes, way after dark. It was safe to do this because we were good swimmers and stayed together. Alligators never crossed our minds because there weren't any. None. "Don't go into water at night" didn't apply. It isn't common sense where I come from. Common sense says, go only as far into the water as you can safely swim, and don't swim alone. Period.

Until this thread, I never knew alligators fed at dusk.

 

 

[FakePigtails]

Considering Disney's own ad has shown people in the water and that up until this, they regularly held sand castle building contests on that beach, I don't think even they considered wading equal to swimming.

[2manyKidzzz]

Disney owns the responsibility for this IMO. 

My heart breaks for these people. It is ridiculous to invite people to an entertainment right on a beach where alligators swim in that water. Isn't there a pool deck/outside area away from the gators.

So strange. Bless these people. Their lives are forever scarred. 

[VelociRapture]

12 hours ago, Toothfairy said:

Most Floridians get use to the wildlife in Florida. It's part of life. Lake Alice is right next to University of Florida. There's signs everywhere to stay out of the water and there's wildlife. Most gator attacks are rare. They usually don't bother humans. 

This story is starting to sound so weird. A two year old unsupervised near water at 9:30pm. His 4 year old sister in the bed. Gators usually feed at night and relax during the day. I hope his parents didn't set this up. Disney should've been more clear about no swimming. So people don't know what that means

I just want to take a moment to explain why I down voted. I don't usually explain, but I felt like I should in this case because your comment wasn't seriously out of line somehow (like racist or anything.)

As another poster stated, this child was not unsupervised. He was with one of his parents in the water when the attack occurred. His father fought the alligator to save him, receiving lacerations to his arms and hands in the process. The animal was too strong and he wasn't able to rescue his child. The amount of guilt and pain they must be in is simple unimaginable to me. My utmost sympathy and love go out to them and their little girl.

My down vote is because I disagree with idle speculation concerning the parents "setting anything up" in this instance. All the official evidence thus far has shown that this was a beloved child who died during a horrific accident - if it didn't gat would be a different story. Suggesting his parents purposely planned this for some reason is going beyond my own tolerance level however. You (and others) are of course free to disagree, but I felt strongly enough about this that I felt I should explain a bit.

(And I do agree that Disney should have made the signs clearer. It's horrible that this happened at all, but I am glad they switched the signs for clearer ones so quickly. Hopefully it helps prevent future tragedies from occurring.) 

[Fascinated]

Oh my god. NO SWIMMING means no swimming. It can never be interpreted to mean: DO NOT ENTER OR GO NEAR THIS WATER - ALLIGATORS!!!!

it just doesn't mean the same thing and I don't care if you've been to Florida a million times or not. It simply is not even remotely close to an adequate warning. 

[carebaer]

On 6/18/2016 at 4:04 PM, Meridae said:

I've read that he was in a bit deeper than that, but of course it's hard to really ascertain and we'll never know how far in he was.

Regardless, wether or not it's part of your life, water safety is an extremely important topic to go over with your children. Especially at night and when there's a "no swimming" sign up (to me, that means unequivocally to stay out of the water- no wading, no diving, etc., same as what another poster said a bit upthread). Do I blame the parents? Absolutely not. Do I blame Disney? No. But common sense- not letting a small child go into a large body of water at night without a parent directly present- would have helped the family avoid a tragedy that cost them their son's life. 

 

On 6/18/2016 at 3:00 AM, Eternalbluepearl said:

If I encountered a "no swimming" sign, it would never occur to me that "wading" is not technically "swimming." I would think no meant no. Keep out. Swim, wade, or dangle your feet in our pools instead. This water isn't for entering. But, I now see that some see "no swimming" and read it as "walking out into the water is still okay." I guess it's like the quotation says "we look up at the same stars, and see such different things." It's fascinating to me. 

All that being said, I'm thinking a night-time movie on  the shore of a dark lake in FL wasn't a good plan by Disney in general. 

I was just telling a friend about how fascinating this thread was for what "no swimming" means to different people.

 

On 6/18/2016 at 4:04 PM, Meridae said:

Especially at night and when there's a "no swimming" sign up (to me, that means unequivocally to stay out of the water- no wading, no diving, etc., same as what another poster said a bit upthread).

That's what it means TO YOU.  If you had grown up where wading was absolutely okay but swimming was prohibited, it would mean something different.  Disney attracts visitors from all over the world.  It's far more reasonable to expect Disney to put up clear signage than it is to expect all those visitors from all different areas to figure out what "no swimming" means on that sign. I don't think they need to list every possible danger, but the warning should be clear.  "Stay out of the water" is clear.  "No Swimming" if you read this thread, clearly means different things in different areas.

 

20 hours ago, Meridae said:

(No, I don't think signage could have prevented this. Some people simply wouldn't have cared.)

Some people wouldn't have cared.  Most people follow the rules.  If there wasn't a culture (obvious from pictures) that wading in that water was okay, than likely that boy wouldn't have been there either.  Maybe his parents would have disregarded a clear warning sign.  You have no way of knowing whether they would or not.  I have now way of knowing either, but we notice people not following rules because most people do.

 

19 hours ago, Hera said:

I mean, being in the water is disregarding.  Look, it could say "no swimming, wading, walking...alligators, snakes, bacteria, and any number of other things could be in the water and/or no lifeguard on duty" but, really, at some point people either heed the sign to stay out of the water or they don't,  In my experience, on vacation, they don't and sometimes tragic things happen as a result.  Signs cannot cover everything.  If I went somewhere in Canada and a sign by a frozen lake said "no ice skating" and a loved one walked on the ice and it cracked and they fell in, can I really claim "He was just walking on it! It didn't say, 'ice may, possibly break, whether waking, running, skating or other, so don't get on it at all!"?

ETA: that pic appears to be of a kid in the water during the day, not at night, when alligators are likely to feed, which kind of makes the "90% of the time it's fine" point. Kind of like how you've never had tragedy strike you when swimming against the flags. It's all good until it isn't. Those signs mean something. 

If anyone knows anywhere where ice skating on a pond is prohibited but walking on the same pond is considered safe, they can share.  Multiple have shared that there are places where swimming is not allowed but wading is.  That's the difference.  We don't know that people on that beach, and Lane's family in particular, would not have heeded a sign that said "stay out of the water" because that isn't what the sign says.

As for the boy in the picture, I saw that facebook post and the mom said they were there from 8 to around 8:45, so very shortly before the alligator attack.  I would guess from the lighting that those pictures were taken closer to 8 but it wasn't the middle of the day either.

[EmCatlyn]

Before we beat the "who is (most) to blame" subject to death, I want to add a few factoids that may give us new directions in which to speculate, snark and blame.

 Most of the information and all of  the quotes below (until point 6) come from CNN Alligator Attacks Child in Disney 6/16/2016

1.  Alligators under 4 feet are not considered generous to humans,. Disney relocates alligators over 4 feet whenever they are seen. However, they don't do anything much about 4 foot alligators unless they get physically in the way.  4 foot alligators eventually grow to 5 or 6 or more feet, but they may not be seen for a while.

2. According to Disney, "Nearly one-third of Walt Disney World property is set aside as a conservation area and these areas attract a variety of native wildlife."

3. Apparently the reason that this little boy was not eaten was that once the father attacked (or fought) the alligator, the animal lost its appetite (became disoriented).  It pulled the child into the water because the kid was in its jaws and it wanted to get away quickly.  Another alligator might have let go of the kid.  You never know.

4.  Based on where the child was found, experts speculate that the alligator pulled the kid in and then let go and crawled/swam a little further in.  Supposedly, this is not unusual behavior for alligators.  It is possible (though unlikely)  that if the lighting had been better or the father or one of the witnesses had known more about alligators, the child might have been recovered before he drowned.  

Quote

The fact that the body was found intact makes sense, said Jeff Corwin, host of "Ocean Mysteries" on ABC. 

"That gator came in, grabbed that boy, pulled him, the dad startled that gator, the gator let him go and then the boy drowned," he speculated. 

Alligators don't swim that far -- they sink into the murky water and lurk there -- which may explain why the father did not see the boy when he jumped into the water to try to save him, Corwin said.

Apparently the father tried to go after the alligator but because he couldn't see where the alligator had gone, he gave up and went for help.  (I would have done the same thing.) But among the "what ifs" scenarios these poor parents are going to live with all their lives is "What if I had gone a little deeper?" and "What if I had had a flashlight?"

5. "In Florida, alligators may be a common sight, but attacks are rare. If a human gets close to alligators, 99% of the time they take off."

6. Lastly, the most recent alligator attack on a child in Disney World happened in 1986.  Here is a link to the original story: Orlando Sentinel 10/12/1986

In that case an eight-year-old was grabbed by the leg by an alligator but his sister held on to him and pulled while the older brother beat the alligator over the head until it let go.  It was the happiest of endings possible, but the victim of the attack still remembers the trauma and the current tragedy has stirred up 30 year old memories.Washington Post.

Meanwhile, some young relatives and their parents report that they are having a great time at Disney World and haven't seen any alligators.

[Grimalkin]

     This poor family. This is heart breaking. 

 

       Thank God Disney is not putting blame on the family. It's a tragedy.

 

[jozina]

I find it upsetting and callous to even put the idea out there that the parents could have set it up when this sounds like such a freak accident.  It'd be beyond most people's wildest dreams and it sounds like the boy was very well supervised.

Not from the US and never been to Disney but I'd never guess alligators would be in that kind of place especially with that beach set up. They should adequately warn people about dangers like that when they have people from all over the planet rocking up for the theme parks, and the signs I've seen in the photos about this story don't look near adequate.

[January1231]

On ‎06‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 1:46 PM, formergothardite said:

Looking at all the pictures people have shared of kids playing in that lagoon, it seems pretty obvious that Disney should have 1) put up signs warning against alligators, 2) enforced the rule about staying out of the water. They knew there was a risk of alligators, yet it seems like it was pretty common for kids to wade in the water.  They decided to set up an event for children next to the water at night without warning their parents of the risk and someone there had to know that alligators are more active at night. 

That's exactly what bothers me.   Why in the world would you have an event at night on that beach with little children?   Most children would venture close if not in the water.     Even during the day, they leave chairs out there for people to lay in the sun.   So, once you lay in the FL sun for thirty minutes, what family isn't going to consider going to the edge of the water to cool off.   Obviously, a person did not have to be swimming to be attacked.   Let's just call it what it is.   Disney failed to clearly mark the beach because it is an important feature of one of there more upscale hotels.  It's a shame because its so rare, but these gators that call Disney home are so comfortable around humans that it wouldn't shock me to see this happen again.  Disney needs to start enforcing the no feeding gators law and they need to figure out some way to protect that beach if they plan on leaving it open.

[carebaer]

12 hours ago, jozina said:

I find it upsetting and callous to even put the idea out there that the parents could have set it up when this sounds like such a freak accident.  It'd be beyond most people's wildest dreams and it sounds like the boy was very well supervised.

Not only is it callous.  I find it ridiculous.  Even people who know to be wary of alligators, for the most part are saying this was a surprising attack.  There's just no way to plan for an alligator to be there.  So to suggest that the parents planned it is just deliberately mean.

 

 

[MatthewDuggar]

Nobody expected this, especially Disney.  What's interesting is that nearly every one of the 30+ resorts on WDW property have some sort of "lake", many of which have the man-made beach feature.   (not to mention all the other off-property resorts)   It could have happened anywhere and even if people don't stay out of the water, we probably won't see it again for a long time.

[Elvis Presby]

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/chattahoochee-river-alligator-spotted-cob/nqhST/

So, I just wanted to share this story.  We live in metro Atlanta, a long way from The Okefenokee and Florida line.  Sometimes, we do have gators way up here!  Back in the late 80's when I was in high school, there was a gator in a pond in Powder Springs, GA.  I grew up afraid to get in any natural body of water because I didn't want to get bit by a cotton mouth, shark, or alligator.  Honestly, I really didn't want to see a catfish the size of a Volkswagen either.  As a Georgian, I really can't understand how someone would not be naturally fearful of the water.  I do have a pool in the back yard now, and we do have fun stuff happen.  Lots of wildlife needs to be rescued!  So far, no gators.

[mstee]

18 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

 

6. Lastly, the most recent alligator attack on a child in Disney World happened in 1986.  Here is a link to the original story: Orlando Sentinel 10/12/1986

In that case an eight-year-old was grabbed by the leg by an alligator but his sister held on to him and pulled while the older brother beat the alligator over the head until it let go.  It was the happiest of endings possible, but the victim of the attack still remembers the trauma and the current tragedy has stirred up 30 year old memories.Washington Post.

Meanwhile, some young relatives and their parents report that they are having a great time at Disney World and haven't seen any alligators.

Slightly off topic, but I read that article about the boy attacked in the 80's and I was amazed at how his brother and sister acted so bravely to save his life. Truly amazing. 

[TeaGrannie]

On 6/18/2016 at 10:27 PM, Toothfairy said:

Most Floridians get use to the wildlife in Florida. It's part of life. Lake Alice is right next to University of Florida. There's signs everywhere to stay out of the water and there's wildlife. Most gator attacks are rare. They usually don't bother humans. 

This story is starting to sound so weird. A two year old unsupervised near water at 9:30pm. His 4 year old sister in the bed. Gators usually feed at night and relax during the day. I hope his parents didn't set this up. Disney should've been more clear about no swimming. So people don't know what that means

Like others than down voted I wanted to say why too. In the many reports I've seen most indicate his mother was holding his hand while he waded and his father jumped in to try to save him. Hard to do when you aren't supervising in my humble opinion. 

The way I'm reading your statement is that a family deliberately set up a scenario where an alligator rips their child from them and kills him all so they can sue Disney? I find that extremely offensive if that is what you are implying.