Gator drags child into water at Disney's Grand Floridian resort

[Mercer]

12 minutes ago, carebaer said:

Further even with the strictest definition of "No swimming" there's no way to know that gator would not have grabbed that boy if he was standing next to the water and not actually in it.  Clearly it was expected and okay to be near the water that night as they were about to show a movie.  It's still an assumption to say it's the parents fault this happened. 

Yeah, I tend to think that "in the water" versus "by the water" probably wouldn't have made much difference in this particular case. An alligator large enough to drag off a two-year-old in spite of active resistance by the parents would not find a foot or less of water to be a significant depth. Being a few feet away from the edge of the water might have given the parents a little more reaction time or made its approach easier to spot in the dark, but I would imagine the alligator would have come a short distance on land to get the child if it was willing to go into water that shallow. It would have to have been essentially walking rather than swimming unless the water was deeper than was reported.

[Toothfairy]

On Wednesday, June 15, 2016 at 11:43 AM, Buzzard said:

I feel bad that they're catching and killing "innocent" gators looking for his body.  I know that they need to recover it, but I wish there was a better way.

I feel bad for the outrage is so different from the gorilla parents. Accidents happen. I read there are fences

Florida has a ton of wildlife coming out at you. I feel so bad that this happened. It's not Disney fault and I don't think the parents should sue. There were signs that said no swimming. There are a ton of signs all over FL that says don't swim or swim at your own risk.

[formergothardite]

I think Disney should have told parents that their kids were playing on a beach at night next to alligator infested water. Because I bet if they had let parents know that, almost no one would have allowed their kids near that water. I would not think that the water would have been filled with alligators because there were no warning signs. "No swimming" is not a "there are lots of gators that will come kill your kids" sign.

Disney is at fault for not making it clear that the water was infested with dangerous animals. 

[SilverBeach]

Disney World...the cleanest, happiest, most child friendly place in the world. Ostensibly, the safest place in the world for children. Millions of visitors, many from areas with no gators or croc experience (I am from metro Chicago).  

I would not have thought twice about letting my little one wade in that water. It's hot out, we are just chilling on Disney property. As long as the child didn't go too far, I would have kept an eye out and not worried about it. I would have thought that the no swimming signs were due to no lifeguards on duty or something like that.

To my non-Floridian way of thinking, wading is most definitely not swimming, and a no swimming sign is not a possible croc/gator infestation warning. I would have thought that there is no way that Disney would not warn visitors that there was a possibility of getting pulled in by an aggressive croc/gator while ankle deep in one of their man-made bodies of water.

Now, had there been a warning sign about possible gators/crocs, my child would not have been anywhere near that water. I still kinda helicopter over my grown child, FWIW.

I get that Disney may have thought that dangerous croc/gator warnings might induce fear, and fear is not compatible with the feeling of safety and security that  Disney seeks to promote. So, no signs or other warnings. That was a huge mistake.

Tl:dr-The parents of that poor child have absolutely no culpability here. They are coping with one of the greatest tragedies anyone could face, and should receive nothing but love and support.

BTW, how do the crocs/gators get into these man made lagoons? Do they just amble through the park and slither in? Perhaps consideration should be given to eliminating these water features if the croc/gator risks cannot be controlled. At the least, fencing should be erected.

[formergothardite]

From pictures it looked like they had chairs pretty close to the water. Sandy beach, beach chairs and a no swimming sign does not give any indication that deadly animals were lurking nearby and people need to not go near the water. I don't get why people are blaming the parents when Disney had a responsibility to let people know that their children were playing on a beach right next to alligator infested waters. 

[VelociRapture]

Update - Just heard on the news that Disney will be adding signs specifically warning about the risk of Crocs and Gators. I think this is a very good move - it could help prevent future tragedies from occurring and it helps take a lot of the liability off of the Company.

We can debate whether or not Disney is culpable (I believe they do bear some responsibility), but I think we can all agree this is a very good positive step towards protecting future vacationers.

31 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

BTW, how do the crocs/gators get into these man made lagoons? Do they just amble through the park and slither in? Perhaps consideration should be given to eliminating these water features if the croc/gator risks cannot be controlled. At the least, fencing should be erected.

I'm not from Florida or an expert. From what I've read, however, it's next to impossible to keep crocs and gators from encroaching on any body of water in Florida. I think someone here mentioned that Disney likely added the man made water features to help control flooding - the park was built in swampland, so I can see how that could be a very real concern.

I don't know the specifics of how they get into the parks, but I wouldn't be surprised if fencing didn't help much. These are extremely powerful animals and they seem to get into fenced yards on a regular basis.

[Terrie]

A commentator on one news story said that other bodies of water on Disney property DO have signs warning of possible gators. Not sure if it's true, but if it is, that's not good for Disney's potential liability. Especially as the lagoon is apparently connected to other waterways. 

[Screamapillar]

As much as I like to make fun of those kind of warning signs that have oversimplified pictures of things you aren't supposed to do, ie a picture of putting a fork in a toaster with a big X over it, it's kind of something properties need to have these days. My parents never ever would have let us in or near fresh water in Florida at night, but that's because we are from an area where you just assume that all lakes and ponds have, at the very least, water moccasins and gators in the water. But you can't assume all visitors to your property are working with even the most basic knowledge of the inherent wildlife dangers of your geographic location. Hopefully they put up signs all along the water with pictures of gators and snacks and "drowning hazard" stick figures.

[LadyCrow1313]

1 hour ago, VelociRapture said:

 

I don't know the specifics of how they get into the parks, but I wouldn't be surprised if fencing didn't help much. These are extremely powerful animals and they seem to get into fenced yards on a regular basis.

I'm not a native Floridian, but I do know that they can climb fences quite easily. Maybe if the style of fencing itself was changed, perhaps?

[2manyKidzzz]

8 hours ago, samira_catlover said:

Sorry, but I don't think the amount of money you pay should somehow magically provide a sense of immunity or magical safety, whether you are in DisneyWorld or overseas....

You want that level of safe?--stay home, and contact your local insurance actuary for adjustments on your risk premiums.  

Heck, I can pay LOTS of money to travel to Interesting Foreign Lands, but if there were clearly expressed issues of concern which I could easily access (or was warned about, even indirectly by local signs)...I don't think I can claim "but I paid MONEY!" as a defense against transgressing against Local Thingies and Mores and Customs or local hazards.

THAT being said, I think Disney should have been a bit more aggressive in terms of signage, given the fact there were Unclearable Gators who Might Like a Munch or Three. Like "there are HUNGRY HUNGRY HUNGRY gators 'round here: we haven't been able to clear them all out (and probably can't), so swimming, wading, splashing, WHATEVER is Not a Good Idea. They LIKE lively meat, and we haven't been able to convert them to Chick-Fil-A!"

"No swimming" signs? Would probably have thought about contaminated water or rip currents. BUT: it is NOT the job of the locals to make clear everything and anything of possible risk. If I'm in Australia, I don't expect they're gonna tell me about jellyfish, sea snakes, man-o-war, crocs, poisonous blue octopii, and everything scary--a basic "don't splash here: NOT fun!" should do it adequately.

Heck, hon, come on down here by the Chesapeake watersheds!  It's pretty and nice here---but BTW, you don't want to eat our waterfoods at certain times.  (No, I am NOT gonna caution you that an osprey might use your head as an oyster-cracking zone, or that a turkey vulture might spook you when driving.  Oh, and you might really gash your hand while learning how to open oysters. Not to mention that a mean aggressive buck white-tailed deer might charge.)

Nonetheless, my sympathies to the parents who must deal with the horror of a vacation shot completely to hell.

My opinion is my opinion. You seem a bit aggressive but I guess that is your way. Disney is at fault in my book. If you don't tell people there are gators, you are at faul.

Wow. Relax. I don't work at Disney or anything. 

[Elvis Presby]

Disney World has more than 50 miles of canals and levees to manage drainage.  The alligators can pretty much go wherever they please via the canals.

My heart goes out to the parents.  I have very little doubt that if they had been made aware that alligators may be in the lake then the child would not have been wading.

Our family has a condo in St. Augustine, FL.  On the path from the pool area to the beach there are signs posted that clearly state to stay off the dunes because rattlesnakes love sand dunes.  The signs are more effective than they would be if they just said "stay off sand dunes".

[bashfulpixie]

2 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

BTW, how do the crocs/gators get into these man made lagoons? Do they just amble through the park and slither in? Perhaps consideration should be given to eliminating these water features if the croc/gator risks cannot be controlled. At the least, fencing should be erected.

So I live in Florida and have had an annual pass to Disney for more than a decade.  Here's the deal.  Gators can grow up up to 10-15 feet long.  Once they hit about four feet, Disney has them relocated elsewhere.  Problem is, as I've stated before, it was built on a swamp.  There is nothing you can do to keep gators out.  Most of their waterways are connected in one way or another.  And the lake that this hotel was on is connected to another even larger lake.

As far as the "infestation" goes, Disney actually does a pretty decent job keeping them from overtaking the area, this tragic accident aside.  Considering during the search they found something... five gators in a lake larger than the Magic Kingdom itself is pretty impressive.  I have seen signs about the alligators around other waters at Disney, but I don't know for sure about the Grand Floridian.  I'm sure that will be rectified quickly if there isn't.

And for the fence idea, Disney already has a fence that wraps around its entire property that you can see coming in from 429 on the west side of the property.  Problem is, gators can climb trees and fences. 

Edit: I just want to make it clear- I think Disney absolutely has a huge chunk of the responsibility if the only sign that they had on that beach was No Swimming.  Like I said earlier in the post- my extended family is from the Midwest and we remind them every single time they come to visit that no matter what body of natural water you get into here, there is something in it that can kill you (alligators, water moccasins, sharks, oh my).  But most people don't realize it and that's their responsibility to make those not from the south aware.

They also need to fine their visitors that feed them like they're ducks.

Also- they've been found in the water around Splash Mountain before too. Literally six feet away from the ride.  So yeah.  They go wherever they damn well please and all anyone can do is move them once they're discovered.

Ignore the stupid music.  Juvi gator does not equal Jaws

 

[Gimme a Free RV]

This might have already been pointed out, but that child (or anyone) could have tripped over an alligator on land, given the surroundings partially camouflaging the gator.  An alligator on land could have been investigating food sources.

I guess my point is, that alligator could have done damage in or out of water.  Signage should warn people to watch for alligators on land and water.

[SilverBeach]

3 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

Update - Just heard on the news that Disney will be adding signs specifically warning about the risk of Crocs and Gators. I think this is a very good move - it could help prevent future tragedies from occurring and it helps take a lot of the liability off of the Company.

We can debate whether or not Disney is culpable (I believe they do bear some responsibility), but I think we can all agree this is a very good positive step towards protecting future vacationers.

I'm not from Florida or an expert. From what I've read, however, it's next to impossible to keep crocs and gators from encroaching on any body of water in Florida. I think someone here mentioned that Disney likely added the man made water features to help control flooding - the park was built in swampland, so I can see how that could be a very real concern.

I don't know the specifics of how they get into the parks, but I wouldn't be surprised if fencing didn't help much. These are extremely powerful animals and they seem to get into fenced yards on a regular basis.

Maybe concrete block walls would deter gators but then patrons can't see the water and then there would be ugly structures around the park, which may be a corporate concern. Perhaps some other flood control engineering method could be employed.

My inquiry was serious. I was thinking that surely that a human or camera would witness a croc walking across the park and would intervene at that time. Or do they tunnel up from underneath? I'm a lifelong Midwesterner so this topic is truly out of the scope of my life experience. AFAIK, backyard crocs and gators happened when homes abutted a river or other body of water.

Yes, it is good that clear warning signs will be erected, although to me this is a "duh" action. I am firmly on the side of Disney having full culpability here , as there should be no expectation that parents would keep little ones from getting their ankles wet on a hot summer night. As overprotective as I was, I would not have been paranoid about wildlife in the water on this little beach.

My heart breaks for the family, who went on a vacation and came home without their baby.

PS: I don't have much if any concern for Disney's corporate liability, not with a dead child here. 

Oh, I have been to DW twice and no croc or gator sightings either time. 

[Maggie Mae]

On 15/06/2016 at 2:59 PM, louisa05 said:

According to a very paranoid poster on another forum, anyone taking a vacation must research ways they could possibly die in the area they are visiting. 

To which I say it was Disney not a trip to climb Everest FFS

Oh FFS. As you said, it's a trip to Disney. A theme park. Most people are concerned with exhaustion, heat stroke, and just general overstimulation. Not freak accidents. 

When I was a child a long long time ago my dad's favorite resort was the Polynesian which was just one stop away from the Grand Floridian on the monorail. I don't remember swimming in the lagoon - there were/are multiple pools at every resort - but we did rent boats and enjoy the water. I would be sad if Disney decided that they needed to fill in the lakes because of one tragic incident in 30 years.  

[bashfulpixie]

They can't fill in the lakes.  Again: flood control.  I've been to the parks on days where the skies open up and it overwhelms the drainage system.  So you're running through massive puddles sometimes ankle deep until the drains catch up.

And it's not that they wander through the parks.  There's tons of waterways that connect through the parks, and that's how they maneuver around for the most part.  Sometimes they like to meander, but they're not very fast on land except for short bursts. 

[VelociRapture]

1 minute ago, SilverBeach said:

Maybe concrete block walls would deter gators but then patrons can't see the water and then there would be ugly structures around the park, which may be a corporate concern. Perhaps some other flood control engineering method could be employed.

My inquiry was serious. I was thinking that surely that a human or camera would witness a croc walking across the park and would intervene at that time. Or do they tunnel up from underneath? I'm a lifelong Midwesterner so this topic is truly out of the scope of my life experience. AFAIK, backyard crocs and gators happened when homes abutted a river or other body of water.

Yes, it is good that clear warning signs will be erected, although to me this is a "duh" action. I am firmly on the side of Disney having full culpability here , as there should be no expectation that parents would keep little ones from getting their ankles wet on a hot summer night. As overprotective as I was, I would not have been paranoid about wildlife in the water on this little beach.

My heart breaks for the family here, who went on a vacation and came home without their baby.

PS: I don't have much if any concern for Disney's corporate liability, not with a dead child here. 

I know you were being serious. So was I. I don't know the specifics (New Englander born and raised), but other posters have mentioned several things:

- the fact that gators can climb the chain link fences.

- the fact that many of the waterways connect to one another, allowing them to access a good deal of the park. So they can enter in one location and easily travel deeper into the park.

- pipes designed to relieve flooding and promote drainage leading out of the park probably allowing gators access (I wouldn't be surprised if the gators were able to break through any grates or barriers put up.)

Concrete fencing might work. I'm not sure if gators can climb those as well - I think someone mentioned they can climb trees, so that could still allow them access. And, like you said, the Corporation may have concerns about concrete fencing as well.

I think the biggest issue is the fact that there is SO much water in Florida. Even if Disney got rid of this Lake it wouldn't do much good. There are so many lakes and bodies of water in the park and general area surrounding it that isn't owned by Disney that gators would still be around - they're apparently really good at finding sources of water. I know it's very hard to grasp - I'm having trouble grasping it myself - but I don't think this is a simple question of just filling a lake or erecting more fences to solve the issue.

And yes, I agree that Disney bears fault here. The parents may have made a less than ideal judgement call - however, I have no doubt they would have acted differently had they been aware of the presence (or possible) of gators. I mentioned the lessened liability for the Company in regards to the future, not in this current situation - properly informing guests of the danger mitigates their responsibility because (despite any and all efforts made) they can never guarantee the water is completely safe. And, more importantly, it's an important step towards helping to decrease the risk that any other family has to suffer the way the Graves family has.

So, while I really wish the signs had been there to begin with, I am glad to see that Disney is taking immediate action in this way. I hope they continue taking whatever positive steps they can that are aimed at preventing further tragedies.

(And for what it's worth, I think you're asking good questions. I'd love to hear from more Floridians about this - they likely know way more and their knowledge could be extremely helpful.)

[Mercer]

The area was not "infested" with alligators. There have been resort guests coming there for 45 years and there has never been a reported alligator attack at that site prior to this incident.

Alligators could be in any waterway in Florida, and I think the resort's signage should have reflected that - especially in areas where guests were intended to be present after dark - but I have not seen any indication that the risk at this particular lagoon was higher than normal.

This incident was tragic, and I do think that some additional safety steps could/should have been taken to ensure park guests were aware of the risk posed by alligators in general, but it wasn't like there was a known specific wild animal hazard in this particular location.

[Maggie Mae]

I don't know what the environmental regulations are like in Florida either. I understand that alligators aren't a protected species by any means, but how do they affect the ecosystem and the environment? Does Disney employ any sort of wildlife management team to manage the population of different species within the park? Would culling the species affect the population of flamingos and other native species? A

 

[formergothardite]

Looking at all the pictures people have shared of kids playing in that lagoon, it seems pretty obvious that Disney should have 1) put up signs warning against alligators, 2) enforced the rule about staying out of the water. They knew there was a risk of alligators, yet it seems like it was pretty common for kids to wade in the water.  They decided to set up an event for children next to the water at night without warning their parents of the risk and someone there had to know that alligators are more active at night. 

[SilverBeach]

Like you, @VelociRapture, I have no knowledge of crocs/gators. Chicagoland born and bred here. We have our problems but killer reptiles are not one of them. 

That said, this incident has changed my perception of DW and Florida. I have no intention of going down there any time soon, but if I perchance find myself in gator country I shall carry gator spray at all times.

This terrible event also underscores why common sense preventative safety measures should be used even when the probability of a harmful event is unlikely. If you fall on the wrong side of that probability, statistics won't matter worth a darn.

[bashfulpixie]

It's not nearly as dangerous to be in the water during the daytime.  Alligators tend to sleep and sun during the day and feed at night.  That's why it's not smart to be in the water between dusk and dawn.  I go water skiing and tubing down the springs and kayaking and other stuff during the daytime.  But you wouldn't catch me near the water at night unless I was safely in a boat where I didn't have to get in the water to go onto shore.

Disney is definitely responsible for not having warning signs up, especially since it seems like wading during the day was looked at as OK, and people not from here wouldn't realize the difference in danger between day and night. (Not saying there isn't any danger, there is.  Just reduced from their active feeding time)

[EmCatlyn]

10 hours ago, formergothardite said:

I think Disney should have told parents that their kids were playing on a beach at night next to alligator infested water. Because I bet if they had let parents know that, almost no one would have allowed their kids near that water. I would not think that the water would have been filled with alligators because there were no warning signs. "No swimming" is not a "there are lots of gators that will come kill your kids" sign.

Disney is at fault for not making it clear that the water was infested with dangerous animals. 

I don't think the Disney people thought of their lagoon as "alligator infested."  They do regular checks for wildlife and apparently there had not been any alligator sightings in the lagoon.  They knew (as anyone in the area knows) that not only alligators but moccasin snakes will find their way to bodies of water (and sometimes even swimming pools) but they had no record of alligators in the lagoon. 

They probably thought there might be a few alligators around but that these alligators would avoid people and therefore posed no risk.  I doubt that the "no swimming" signs were primarily because of alligators.  The snakes and the water quality were probably more significant danger.

Yes, it would have been better if they had had signs saying, "Stay out of the water," and "be alert: alligators and snakes may be found near the water."  But I don't think they deliberately concealed the presence of alligators.  

 

[iweartanktops]

I just can't get over the trauma this family is and will endure from this. I get teary-eyed just thinking about the poor dad trying to get his son from the gator!

[Kailash]

4 hours ago, iweartanktops said:

I just can't get over the trauma this family is and will endure from this. I get teary-eyed just thinking about the poor dad trying to get his son from the gator!

This incident has made me so paranoid. I took my daughter and her friend to the YMCA to swim today and all I could think about were the dangers that I wasn't recognizing as dangers. Asking myself "What have I overlooked?"

This was such a tragic accident. I have no doubt this family will stay with me for a long time, if not forever.