Daniel Staddon and Kathryn Neely: the most convoluted courtship story ever

[princessmahina]

10 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Yep that's what I'm talking about. Since the guy always has to make the first move, he can pick a girl he's attracted to. And of course it's usually a beautiful girl (like Kathryn) but who knows if she's attracted to him? 

Maybe that was Sarah Reiths issue with Zack?

I could see that. I could also see her being turned off by how awkward and aggressive he was in those episodes. He stared at her like she was a steak. He seems to have mellowed out a lot. 

[louisa05]

13 minutes ago, mallallory said:

That's so sad.  I had thought that in these circles being attracted to your future spouse would be quietly, privately considered a bonus.  I didn't realize it would be looked down upon entirely. 

Is your friend happy in her marriage?

She had a difficult time early on. She was trying to do the full on submissive thing where she didn't have her own opinions but conformed to his and such. But he was raised in the United Methodist Church and had no notions of such things. She drug him to a marriage conference about two years in to try to get him to understand why he had to let her have no opinions, ask permission for everything, etc...things went really bad for a bit following that, but it ultimately made them confront the differences and she (in a good way not in a "must submit" way) saw that a more equal partnership was better for the marriage and especially better for her. She had lived alone, worked and been very independent prior to marriage and the sudden change to total submission was problematic--even if he had wanted her to be that way (I guess, in that matter, maybe the hard core fundies are right to shelter young women--independence can discourage total submission). I think, now, as they get close to 17 years, things are good for them. They remain part of a United Methodist Church and she has left most evangelical theology and doctrine behind. 

[CyborgKin]

I remember once, after going through a long list of desirable character qualities and habits to look for in a wife, my dad saying that after getting to know a potential partner for a while, if I don't feel any attraction , then it's not a good match.

 

Not sure why behaviour at a college keg party is an indicator of anything, but as I've never been to one I'll take people's word on it.

[Gimme a Free RV]

20 hours ago, louisa05 said:

They remain part of a United Methodist Church and she has left most evangelical theology and doctrine behind. 

I would consider the United Methodist Church evangelical in theology and doctrine, for the most part, depending on the individual church.  Compared to other evangelical denominations, their practices might be more liberal, but I still believe them to be evangelical.

ETA:  Evangelical doesn't necessarily equal "fundie" in the sense that we talk about it on FJ.  For example, as a Southern Baptist, I would accept the "evangelical" label and I believe that the Bible is true and is the word of God, but I don't hold to legalism or worship a particular version of the Bible.  I don't believe that outward behaviors such as dress codes, hair length, educational decisions, choice of music, male domination, etc., have a thing to do with salvation.  I believe that what is in a person's heart is what matters and not  whether you can see their knees or shoulders.  When people *cough*Shraders*Duggars*Rodrigues*Bates*others...* allow legalistic issues to dictate their faith, I believe they are putting themselves (or Bill Goatherd) in the role of God and not trusting Him fully for what actually is important in terms of their faith and relationship to Him.

This has been a public service opinion of one Christian and is not intended to call out any individual member of FJ.  

[louisa05]

37 minutes ago, Gimme a Free RV said:

I would consider the United Methodist Church evangelical in theology and doctrine, for the most part, depending on the individual church.  Compared to other evangelical denominations, their practices might be more liberal, but I still believe them to be evangelical.

ETA:  Evangelical doesn't necessarily equal "fundie" in the sense that we talk about it on FJ.  For example, as a Southern Baptist, I would accept the "evangelical" label and I believe that the Bible is true and is the word of God, but I don't hold to legalism or worship a particular version of the Bible.  I don't believe that outward behaviors such as dress codes, hair length, educational decisions, choice of music, male domination, etc., have a thing to do with salvation.  I believe that what is in a person's heart is what matters and not  whether you can see their knees or shoulders.  When people *cough*Shraders*Duggars*Rodrigues*Bates*others...* allow legalistic issues to dictate their faith, I believe they are putting themselves (or Bill Goatherd) in the role of God and not trusting Him fully for what actually is important in terms of their faith and relationship to Him.

This has been a public service opinion of one Christian and is not intended to call out any individual member of FJ.  

There are big theological differences as compared to the demomation my friend grew up in and the differences in practice are even bigger. And she has personally rejected much of the doctrine and practice she grew up with. We have had detailed long conversations about this as we both had massive changes in belief after college where we were roommates. 

But it thanks for explaining my alleged ignorance to me. 

[Gimme a Free RV]

@louisa05, honey, grow up.  I wasn't arguing with you. I was engaging in conversation. Did you not read my final statement in BOLD?  

The only ignorance I see is in your last sentence:  "But it thanks for explaining my alleged ignorance to me." 

 

ETA:  Perhaps you're having a bad day.  I've had a slew of 'em recently.  If this is the case and my post triggered something, I'm sorry--not for what I wrote but I'm sorry if you're having a bad day.  Bad days suck.  Puppies and chocolate have always helped me.  Peace.

[Petrel]

The United Methodist Church is a mainline denomination, though regionally quite conservative. They differ from evangelicals on personal salvation (Methodists don't "get saved") and biblical inerrancy.  They baptize infants, probably related to their interpretation of salvation.

[Tim-Tom Biblethumper]

11 hours ago, Gimme a Free RV said:

ETA:  Evangelical doesn't necessarily equal "fundie" in the sense that we talk about it on FJ.  For example, as a Southern Baptist, I would accept the "evangelical" label and I believe that the Bible is true and is the word of God, but I don't hold to legalism or worship a particular version of the Bible.  I don't believe that outward behaviors such as dress codes, hair length, educational decisions, choice of music, male domination, etc., have a thing to do with salvation.  I believe that what is in a person's heart is what matters and not  whether you can see their knees or shoulders.  When people *cough*Shraders*Duggars*Rodrigues*Bates*others...* allow legalistic issues to dictate their faith, I believe they are putting themselves (or Bill Goatherd) in the role of God and not trusting Him fully for what actually is important in terms of their faith and relationship to Him.

@Gimme a Free RV:  First, I've thoroughly enjoyed your posts since I've been reading them, and I have mad respect for your humor, insight, sense of irony, and poetic skills.  
I'm kinda surprised you identify as Southern Baptist.  I NEVER would have guessed.  May I ask why that particular brand of Protestantism...Is it just convenience (a church nearby that you like), doctrinal, or something else?  This isn't intended to snark at all, I'm just curious, and always learning.  And, obviously there's no need to answer if you feel it's too personal.

[Granwych]

On ‎6‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 0:49 PM, Georgiana said:

Every single fundie or fundie light guy I have ever known in person has INSISTED on the princess cut ring for "his princess".  Even when the bride had other tastes.  And guess what....they all look EXACTLY like that one.  Honestly, if I put them all on a table, I doubt any of the couples could pick out their own.  And it's ALWAYS so the guy could talk about how she's his princess blah blah blah.  Why learn about diamonds, jewelry, or even the tastes of your soon to be bride when you could just fall back on an old cliche that makes it all about YOU, amirite?!?  Does getting her a brilliant cut diamond because she's brilliant threaten your masculinity?  Or do you just not know her well enough to make that assessment?

But here it sort of works: hastily brokered marriage between two people who barely know each other and have only communicated at a distance, selected from an incredibly small pool of "worthy" candidates, and done mainly for procreation:  sounds like a medieval royal marriage to me!

 

The only thing missing is lands, $$$$, and a title such as "Lord jackass" or "Lady Clueless."

[amazing707]

Anyone else just stare at the website URL and think but does Kathryn love Daniel?? Honestly that's as far as I made it

[Gimme a Free RV]

2 hours ago, Tim-Tom Biblethumper said:

@Gimme a Free RV:  First, I've thoroughly enjoyed your posts since I've been reading them, and I have mad respect for your humor, insight, sense of irony, and poetic skills.  
I'm kinda surprised you identify as Southern Baptist.  I NEVER would have guessed.  May I ask why that particular brand of Protestantism...Is it just convenience (a church nearby that you like), doctrinal, or something else?  This isn't intended to snark at all, I'm just curious, and always learning.  And, obviously there's no need to answer if you feel it's too personal.

Tim-Tom, that's far too personal for me to answer.

 

 

 

 

Just kidding!

I was raised mostly in Southern Baptist churches with an occasional Presbyterian drive by.  However, that is not why I am a member of an SBC church.

When I was in college, it finally occurred to me that my faith truly had to be my own and I had to believe it with all my heart because it was my own desire, not because I was riding on the coattails of my parents' beliefs.  From that point, I basically took it on a church by church basis and not necessarily a commitment to a denomination.  No two churches were alike nor were the pastors of those churches.  I've had delightful experiences and very difficult, heartbreaking experiences.  Through it all, I realize churches are filled with sinful, selfish, hard-headed people (of which I am one) and many of them  (including me) want to be free of those qualities.  I've never blamed God for "bad" churches or pastors.

I'm currently in a Southern Baptist Church that, in terms of SBC churches in general, tends to be traditional in worship but progressive in practice, i.e., women deacons.  If that church didn't align with my faith, theological perspectives and Biblical teachings, I wouldn't be there.  Also, they have a culturally diverse membership and I really like that.  Too, I like that it is a city church that actively reaches out in the community to those in need of food, clothing, gas, and lodging.

(Also, the belly-dancing ministry there is awesome.)

[uber frau]

34 minutes ago, amazing707 said:

Anyone else just stare at the website URL and think but does Kathryn love Daniel?? Honestly that's as far as I made it

That's immaterial.  A literal reading of that favourite proof-text in Ephesians makes it pretty clear that it's a husband's duty to love his wife.  There are no such demands placed on the wife: she's called only to submit. 

If she's to be a good Fundie Wife (TM) (which is, of course, the goal of all good SAHDs), she needs someone to be a good Fundie Husband (TM).  For all of their 'knight in shining armour'/one true love schtick, I think fundie matches are far more concerned with setting up two people to fill set roles than they are about the emotional needs or personal happiness of the individuals.  (How can you be attracted to someone's personality when there's such a concrete list of desirable personality traits?)

What I find interesting is that most of the IBLP A-list proposals even look exactly the same.  There's always red flowers (nearly always roses, with or without a background of baby's breath/gypsophilia. D&K's are the first non-roses I've seen actually) and a personal testimony letter printed onto brown faux-parchment (If you're especially creative, you can singe the edges like TFDW did).  I almost wonder if there's a Wisdom Booklet that outlines how to propose?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ophelia]

4 hours ago, Gimme a Free RV said:

Tim-Tom, that's far too personal for me to answer.

 

 

 

 

Just kidding!

I was raised mostly in Southern Baptist churches with an occasional Presbyterian drive by.  However, that is not why I am a member of an SBC church.

When I was in college, it finally occurred to me that my faith truly had to be my own and I had to believe it with all my heart because it was my own desire, not because I was riding on the coattails of my parents' beliefs.  From that point, I basically took it on a church by church basis and not necessarily a commitment to a denomination.  No two churches were alike nor were the pastors of those churches.  I've had delightful experiences and very difficult, heartbreaking experiences.  Through it all, I realize churches are filled with sinful, selfish, hard-headed people (of which I am one) and many of them  (including me) want to be free of those qualities.  I've never blamed God for "bad" churches or pastors.

I'm currently in a Southern Baptist Church that, in terms of SBC churches in general, tends to be traditional in worship but progressive in practice, i.e., women deacons.  If that church didn't align with my faith, theological perspectives and Biblical teachings, I wouldn't be there.  Also, they have a culturally diverse membership and I really like that.  Too, I like that it is a city church that actively reaches out in the community to those in need of food, clothing, gas, and lodging.

(Also, the belly-dancing ministry there is awesome.)

I really enjoy reading about your faith and your opinion about churches and pastors. Right now I have a feeling that I need a church where I can feel comfortable. I always go to church when I'm visiting my parents (not because they want me to - they like to sleep in on sundays!) but right now that isn't enough for me. So I'm checking out churches in the city where I live now. Your church sounds amazing, I hope to find something similar.

[fundiefan]

You know, my niece just got engaged to her boyfriend of five years. The announcements - public and private-were full of love and happiness and you could see the love in their faces. It got me thinking about Daniel & Kathryn and how they are both 'so in love' now, but seem to take pride in the fact that neither went looking for this and had misgivings but god told them and blah, blah, blah.

My niece and her fiancé are very proud of the fact that they are getting married. They love each other and want the world to know. Their emotions are real and have developed over their years and experiences together, and they are thrilled. They also take full responsibility for their choices to be together and now to get married, so I guess they don't have to feign indifference in the name of some god or daddy rules or whatever.

The contrast is just striking. And, it makes me a little sad. These fundies will never truly know what it is like to meet someone and fall in love. For real. Not abide by a set of rules; not go from indifference to 'I am marrying/in love with my best friend" in a matter of weeks; not preparing to marry someone mere months after first talking. I sincerely believe it is a damaging way to go about it; it leaves no room for individuals, choices, growth...nothing. It's from zero to 100 in five minutes or less, no questions asked-ever.

I will take the heathen way of finding a mate any day. However it happens, young, old, long term dating, short term dating - whatever the experiences - I will take the heathen choices chosen by the couple involved over a set of daddy rules that are created to ruin your life.

And I will take great pride in watching my niece plan her wedding to her fiancé and begin their lives together-the ones they've chosen. It's not all planned out for them and that, to me, is one of the best parts of being young.

[Black Aliss]

On 6/7/2016 at 5:36 AM, nelliebelle1197 said:

The doctrinal pickiness amongst US protestant denominations is inSANE. IFB church on Main Street will have nothing to with IFB church on 1st street because one church is homeschool and family integrated and the other church has it own super conservative Christian school and sends kids to the nursery. Southern Baptist Church A and B won't cooperate on anything because Pastor A thinks Pastor B should not have been ordained since B is a woman. Methodist Church 1 has a huge rift with Methodist Church 2 because Church 2 has a huge gay congregation. ... blah blahblahblah  BLAH.

And if you think nelliebelle is exaggerating, just google the phrase "Die, heretic scum" to find the best Baptist joke ever.

[catlady]

9 minutes ago, Black Aliss said:

And if you think nelliebelle is exaggerating, just google the phrase "Die, heretic scum" to find the best Baptist joke ever.

haha!  that *is* funny!!!1!

[LadyCrow1313]

On ‎6‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 0:25 PM, NCLunaLovegoodFan said:

She sounds like a protagonist from a bad Fundie YA romance novel.

Or Twilight.

[uber frau]

Same thing really.

[hollyandivy]

There will be a live stream of the wedding on their website - and I'm away camping!!

[fundiefan]

I should be home in time to watch it - however, I have plans later that night, so I am not sure watching is a good plan because I could NOT watch it without drinking, and I don't think it wise for me to start drinking that far in advance of a night out.

[SallyDraper]

1 hour ago, hollyandivy said:

There will be a live stream of the wedding on their website - and I'm away camping!!

 The Neelys and the Staddons usually post there wedding videos within a couple hours of the ceremony. They've done it the past so hopefully there do it this time. 

[Rhetorica]

On 6/7/2016 at 7:06 AM, Palimpsest said:

We had that discussion on the Vaughn Ohlson thread too.  I've tried before (the famous venn diagram from hell that I ditched) and am supposed to be trying again.  Sometime.  I'm not sure when I'll get it done.  Bottom line - it is bloody complicated and I'm persnickety and rather obsessive about weeding out those incredibly "important" doctrinal differences. 

Send help - and ferrets.  Or volunteer to take the project off my hands.   

I've tried to do this kind of mapping too, but gave up. Mother Jones has a pretty good--if basic--one about the Religious Right: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2005/12/expanding-universe 

I wonder if it would work better as a crowd-sourced document like Google docs or a wiki? Even a Prezi might work. Maybe a color-coded network would be better suited than a Venn diagram?

[Palimpsest]

8 minutes ago, Rhetorica said:

I've tried to do this kind of mapping too, but gave up. Mother Jones has a pretty good--if basic--one about the Religious Right: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2005/12/expanding-universe 

I wonder if it would work better as a crowd-sourced document like Google docs or a wiki? Even a Prezi might work. Maybe a color-coded network would be better suited than a Venn diagram?

I like that Mother Jones Universe and a definite yes to the color-coded network.  Thanks for that link.   

We did have plans for a wiki.  We sort of lost impetus there for a while, real life getting in the way of FJ, but we really need to get back to work on it.   Notes down @Rhetorica's name as a potentially helpful person with good ideas because no good deed goes unpunished on FJ ...

 

[Rhetorica]

Just now, Palimpsest said:

I like that Mother Jones Universe and a definite yes to the color-coded network.  Thanks for that link.   

We did have plans for a wiki.  We sort of lost impetus there for a while, real life getting in the way of FJ, but we really need to get back to work on it.   Notes down @Rhetorica's name as a potentially helpful person with good ideas because no good deed goes unpunished on FJ ...

 

Ha, ha! Yes, please do that! FWIW, part of my dissertation was mapping the networked relationship between corporatism and the emerging religious right in the 1970s. I don't necessarily consider myself to be a digital humanities scholar or to have any major tech expertise, but  at a conference recently a DH scholar liked the network diagram I built in Prezi, so that made me feel good.

[Palimpsest]

20 minutes ago, Rhetorica said:

Ha, ha! Yes, please do that! FWIW, part of my dissertation was mapping the networked relationship between corporatism and the emerging religious right in the 1970s. I don't necessarily consider myself to be a digital humanities scholar or to have any major tech expertise, but  at a conference recently a DH scholar liked the network diagram I built in Prezi, so that made me feel good.

You may regret telling me this!