2nd Gen Duggar/Bates birth comparison

[JermajestyDuggar]

7 minutes ago, Wenny said:

My Grandma had a change of life baby at 55 and mom still hasn't gone through Menopause at 60. The women in our family are late bloomers, I had my period by 17 and mom was 22 when she got hers. I was the same age as when Michelle had her first so in theory (if I was stupid and didn't care about being pre-e nearly killing me and little Wenny) I could have 20-25 kids. 

 

Oh Dog. 

22! That's the latest I've ever heard!

[Wenny]

11 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

22! That's the latest I've ever heard!

They gave her hormones to start it and told her she may have issues getting pregnant/staying pregnant. Nope. However my brother was a 9lb "30 weeker" 

[habert]

1 hour ago, Bad Wolf said:

I thought the idea was to leave the number of kids up to God, not badger Him because you've decided you know better. 

Yes Yes Yes!! This is important!!I When we talk about how "fertile" these woman are and the quiverfull movement, it's very important to remember that pregnancy is the goal at all times. There are many many woman who have a hard time conceiving, and in a very very general sense just having a baby/not getting your period after pregnancy/breastfeeding/etc. makes it harder to conceive again, but the rate Kelly/Michelle conceived is not that impossible for a lot of women out in the world, it's just dangerous and socially not accepted. Most women don't want to be broodmares, and have a healthier relation to pregnancy and motherhood than they do.

Quiverfull as a movement grew for a long time before Kelly and Michelle entered it. "Leaving it up to God" was the PR slogan since the beginning. Quiverfull is and always been about building numbers of followers. Women that deep in their religious movements are not leaving it up to god, they are actively trying to get pregnant.  

[EmCatlyn]

5 hours ago, catlady said:

if one of them did, to Michelle it would be all about her son having 20, no matter that his wife carried and delivered them.

I think for Michelle it would be/will be/is about the number of grandchildren now.  She would brag about the child that produced the most grandkids, but the accomplishment would be hers and Jim Bob's.   She will report on the number of grandkids and somehow turn it around to a discussion of how many kids she had.

[GreenTea]

22 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

I think for Michelle it would be/will be/is about the number of grandchildren now.  She would brag about the child that produced the most grandkids, but the accomplishment would be hers and Jim Bob's.   She will report on the number of grandkids and somehow turn it around to a discussion of how many kids she had.

I still think Jim Bob and Jichelle really wanted to get to kid #20. It would have seemed like a goal post for all the other Qiverfull families. I think they would be jealous of their own children (or anybody else) if they ever hit 20 kids.  

[formergothardite]

I don't think they would be anymore jealous than Kelly and Gil. Kelly especially really wanted that 10 boys and 10 girls. 

[RoseWilder]

I think Gil and Jim Bob are equally repulsive. They're both a couple of smug, arrogant, know-it-alls. Gil is just a smug, arrogant, know-it-all who can cry on cue. I do see a huge difference between Kelly and Michelle, but I don't think Kelly's a better mother. I think the difference is that Kelly seems like a person who is naturally more inclined for this lifestyle and Michelle seems bored with it. I keep remembering the episodes where Michelle went roller skating, or the one where she was talking about loving bugs as a child, Michelle seemed to come alive in a way that she never seems to the rest of the time. I don't think Michelle is well suited for a sheltered country life. I think she wanted fun and excitement and a life outside of the Gothard mold and she made the mistake of marrying an insecure asshole who makes her feel like crap for having a little fun, and she responded by trying to turn herself into someone else. 

I see the same thing when I compare Erin Paine to Jessa Seewald. Erin is naturally interested in (and good at) things that fit within the Gothard mold. So she seems happy and content and at peace with her life and nice. Jessa is not suited for that life so she comes across as vain and bitchy, when really she just needs a different life. 

[Bad Wolf]

Michelle was very athletic as a teen. She water skied and was the only one to get up. (Forget the stupid knees incident) She skated backwards, sky dived, but how much was/is she able to pursue anything? She was pregnant for so much time, and all she got to do was the stairmaster. How boring, and how can anyone swim well in those stupid modesty suits.

[Toothfairy]

Imgaine another fundie having 20 kids. That would probably throw Jimchelle off. They're not in the lead. 

[princessmahina]

It looks like most people here are/were behind Kelly and Michelle. Anyone here keep pace (for a little while) or even surpass them (briefly) at their age? 

[Fundie Bunny]

5 hours ago, princessmahina said:

It looks like most people here are/were behind Kelly and Michelle. Anyone here keep pace (for a little while) or even surpass them (briefly) at their age? 

At my age they were both a year to a year and half from concieving, who knows? (I hope i don't )

[MadameOvary]

8 hours ago, RoseWilder said:

I keep remembering the episodes where Michelle went roller skating, or the one where she was talking about loving bugs as a child, Michelle seemed to come alive in a way that she never seems to the rest of the time. I don't think Michelle is well suited for a sheltered country life. I think she wanted fun and excitement and a life outside of the Gothard mold and she made the mistake of marrying an insecure asshole who makes her feel like crap for having a little fun, and she responded by trying to turn herself into someone else. 

 

This. Getting the pretty cheerleader inflated JB's fragile ego to such an extent that he needs an increasing army of people to prop it up. He has created a cult of himself to keep his minions in line so he can continue pretending he isn't the insecure asshole he clearly is.

[formergothardite]

Jim Bob and Michelle got into IBLP/ATI because of guilt. Kelly and Gil got into it because they thought it was a really good idea. Jim Bob and Michelle are pretty clueless about how most people view their life while Gil and Kelly are very aware and do their best to make themselves appealing.  

Michelle most likely would have been a good mom to a couple of kids. Kelly probably would have still been one of those mom's who used strict baby and child training. The rigid baby training and assigning buddies to her babies before birth probably helped to keep her from getting overwhelmed by all the children. I don't think Kelly is particularly enamored with having lots of children,  like Michelle it turned into baby collecting.  she stopped raising her children a long time ago, but she was better at making it work for her than Michelle has ever been. And a lot of that probably came from her getting into this lifestyle because she wanted to get into it.

[Melissa1977]

10 hours ago, RoseWilder said:

I think Gil and Jim Bob are equally repulsive. They're both a couple of smug, arrogant, know-it-alls. Gil is just a smug, arrogant, know-it-all who can cry on cue. I do see a huge difference between Kelly and Michelle, but I don't think Kelly's a better mother. I think the difference is that Kelly seems like a person who is naturally more inclined for this lifestyle and Michelle seems bored with it. (...) I think she wanted fun and excitement and a life outside of the Gothard mold and she made the mistake of marrying an insecure asshole who makes her feel like crap for having a little fun, and she responded by trying to turn herself into someone else. 

I have the impression that Kelly and Gil BOTH decided to become quiverful and that they have had a more equal mariage than Duggars. Kelly talks about husband power and so on, but I don't see her really submissive, but a partner of Gil.

However, I think Michelle was "converted" by Jim Bob and I also think that she hasn't enjoyed her life, but she has repressed emotions and convinced herself that she's doing the right way.

That doesn't make Kelly a better mother. But even in the worst families, having parents with a good/equal couple relationship and more or less happy, give the children some security. For me, that's why Bates older kids they are having apparently good relationships with their couples and seem more confident than Duggars.

[formergothardite]

I do think that Gil and Kelly are equal partners in the whole "let's join a cult, exploit our children so we don't have to work and then work our way through the ranks to take over" thing that they seemed to have done. They are a smart, conniving couple, which is why I don't think for one second Kelly was unaware of all the abuse in IBLP and all the cover up of abuse that Gill(allegedly) was doing. She is an equal partner in the evil. They dethroned Gothard and now have replaced the Duggars in being the top IBLP family. They are scary as hell.

Michelle, though, just seems to follow what she is told to do. And she and Jim Bob are really clueless about life. 

[Casserole]

10 hours ago, princessmahina said:

It looks like most people here are/were behind Kelly and Michelle. Anyone here keep pace (for a little while) or even surpass them (briefly) at their age? 

Courtney (SweetTeaButtermilk) is 32(?) and will have 8 children under the age of 6 shortly. What's scary is she didn't start baby making until age 24. If she started when Michelle/Kelly had, she'd no doubt beat them. She could still potentially beat them if her uterus doesn't fall out first. 

How old is Sierra? She is still in her 20s (I think) and has 5. And refers to her children as arrows for her husband's legacy, so she's most likely to go for 20. 

[Fundie Bunny]

10 minutes ago, Casserole said:

How old is Sierra? She is still in her 20s (I think) and has 5. And refers to her children as arrows for her husband's legacy, so she's most likely to go for 20. 

She is 25. 26 at most. Throw a couple of twins here and there and she will have at least 10 more

[Casserole]

7 minutes ago, Fundie Bunny said:

She is 25. 26 at most. Throw a couple of twins here and there and she will have at least 10 more

Eek. Didn't realize we were the same age - I'll be 26 in a month. By the end of my 26th year, I'll have 4 degrees so who needs kids anyway  But really, managing myself and the dogs is a struggle most days. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

11 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

Michelle was very athletic as a teen. She water skied and was the only one to get up. (Forget the stupid knees incident) She skated backwards, sky dived, but how much was/is she able to pursue anything? She was pregnant for so much time, and all she got to do was the stairmaster. How boring, and how can anyone swim well in those stupid modesty suits.

I have always pictured Michelle being much happier if she had lived a life more like her hs BFF Cindy. She lights up and is animated when Cindy is around. I could see Michelle having 2 or 3 kids that are now grow with many interests outside her family and enjoying life. 

[habert]

37 minutes ago, Casserole said:

Courtney (SweetTeaButtermilk) is 32(?) and will have 8 children under the age of 6 shortly. What's scary is she didn't start baby making until age 24. If she started when Michelle/Kelly had, she'd no doubt beat them. She could still potentially beat them if her uterus doesn't fall out first. 

How old is Sierra? She is still in her 20s (I think) and has 5. And refers to her children as arrows for her husband's legacy, so she's most likely to go for 20. 

I got curious about Sierra and tried to find her kids birthdays but they aren't easy to find. But she just celebrated 7 years married in December (12/08)

So by the time Sierra was married 7 years she had 5 kids, Michelle had 4 and was probably about 6/7 months from conceiving (July 1991) and Kelly just had Alyssa #6 and would have Tori in 12 months (Dec 1994). If you can believe it, Michelle was just 2 months from turning 25 at that time, and Kelly actually just turned 28 a couple months before. 

So yeah, Sierra is well on her way to 19 easy.

 

[Fundie Bunny]

Holy fucking shit I counted wrong. She doesn't have 10 to 15 years of fertility left, she has 20 to 25 years left. She will get to the mighty 20 

[Casserole]

I think what boggles my mind the most about Michelle/Kelly is how few miscarriages they've had. Statistically, for that many live births I'd expect the number to be much higher. I know a lot of women experience miscarriages before they even confirmed pregnancy; for example my mother on more than one occasion had a late period, thought she was pregnant, and then her "period" showed up late very heavily, painfully and all around "different" than usual and were suspected miscarriages. This is common among many women I've spoken too. In fact, I'd say most women I know with 2-3 children and have disclosed an average of 2 miscarriages. But with how hyper vigilant these two were with tracking ovulation and peeing on a stick everyday, I trust that they didn't miss the early on pregnancies... and you'd think towards the end their bodies would want to reject pregnancies. I don't get it. They should be studied. Maybe we can find a link to treat infertility in others. lol 

[Quivering Uterus]

I have to wonder what the lifespan will be for these women. 

 

The effect on your vascular system amongst other tolls are life long, and I don't feel there's enough time to even recover bodily, much less mentally from the hormone swings. 

Also the trauma to their netherlands. Poor Jess got a big awakening on that. She may be purposely holding back. I would have PTSD after something as horrendous, unpredictable and filmed on top of it all.

[devoe364]

I agree that Kelly is more of an equal partner. Michelle was converted to it by Jim Bob and as a pleaser, she has spent her adult life supressing her own feelings and desires. She would have been a great Mom to 2-3 kids. Maybe even 5 or 6 had they been spaced out. 

That said, I think she turned to baby collecting because she is good at having babies. Making babies makes Jim Bob happy and if Jim Bob is happy, Michelle, by extension, must be happy. We all know that this is NOT the case, however, she thinks it must be so, and probably feels failure for not truly keeping sweet (or whatever the Gothardite version of that is).

She is good at breeding. It has come to be her entire identity. The only way she could cope (and not murder her children) was to hand them off to others to raise, while she keeps doing what she is good at. 

[formergothardite]

30 minutes ago, Casserole said:

and you'd think towards the end their bodies would want to reject pregnancies. I don't get it.

Towards the end, isn't that what Kelly's body started doing? And that is why she had to grift(because they sure as hell aren't paying for health insurance) medical care to help her stay pregnant?