Micro Chips and Mark of the Beast

[LadyCrow1313]

20 hours ago, PennySycamore said:

I do sometimes write checks but I do try to make them out to some extent at home.  For instance, most ATMs aren't made for short people in little cars so I go to the drive-in window to get cash with a already written check.  I do think that writing checks is probably better for money management.  I admit I'm weird but I like writing checks.  I do know it annoys people though so I don't do it that often.

Back your regularly scheduled programming .....

I write checks as well, but always from home. Maybe it makes me old school, perhaps, but that's how I prefer to pay bills.

And regarding this whole chipping business: it is handy for animals, yes, but wouldn't work for me (personally). This reminds me a lot of the sci-fi book series Shadowrun, where magic & technology are both rampant in futuristic society. Some tech heads have implants in their heads where they can directly connect w/computers/online things. Very interesting books, indeed.  

6 minutes ago, samira_catlover said:

You know, if I could get microchipped for Basic Interesting Medical Thingies (like allergies, past interesting medical history, basic identity stuff, my being a very proud and happy organ donor---have at it, transplant teams!--there's folks who really NEED my spare parts!), I'd cheerfully do it.

Anybody who wants to read my records (HIPPA-protected or not) is likely to get wayyyyyyy bored---but if something awful happened, I'd totes adore any provider to know I'm allergic as hell to morphine, before coming at me with a needle.

*Seriously considering getting a tattoo across my chest that says "do not even ATTEMPT resuscitation!*

I saw a tattoo w/either someone's dnr decline or something else that was health related. I thought that was a cool idea.

[NotAnIncubator]

I was raised Southern Baptist to put it lightly. My mother is rabidly against microchips saying they were 'the devil' and i had honestly never heard of anyone else believing this. Im for microchips because if you have a husky or a husky mix or any dog that likes to run off, the dog catcher will contact you instead of doing a full stint in doggy jail or worse... She still refuses to this day.

[louisa05]

I have a long list of medication allergies and hypersensitivities. I wear a medical alert bracelet on the recommendation of several medical professionals, carry a list,  and make my husband carry a list. 

I would never consider a tattoo for that. Never. I hate that the medical alert bracelet draws people's attention. I often wear two or three additional bracelets on that arm to distract people as people are rude and I've been asked why I wear it. Or asked point blank if I have a certain condition (usually it is "are you diabetic?" which I am not). The whole mess is no one's business and trying to explain it often results in a long crunchy lecture about alternative medicine (because you can't be allergic to that, don't you know?) or antibiotic overuse (yeah, not an overuse issue at all), or how the problems are all in my head or just general nonsense. 

So it is no one's damn business and I don't want to discuss it with anyone who is not treating me, thank you very much. I suspect a tattoo that medical professionals would spot would just be more noticeable to the busybodies of the world. 

As for microchips that store medical and financial information, I would be concerned that it would very much be a privacy issue. And once your bank account attached to the micrcochip was hacked, how do you change that info on an implanted chip? And how would we secure that the business  where we use the chip to buy coffee  doesn't have access to our medical info or full financial info? What happens when you need to access a incapacitated relative's accounts and records? How does POA work with microchips? 

Too many practical questions and privacy issues for me. That said, it isn't the mark of the beast. Which is not even a thing. 

[Gimme a Free RV]

42 minutes ago, THERetroGamerNY said:

The original Hebrew word Sheol translates to "the grave", not hell. Those angels were therefore cast "down into the grave".

Jesus just wanted peeps to chill, and be happy & friendly. He wanted them to love one another and all that nifty stuff. Salvation from ourselves mostly.

Ironically, fundies are this very type he wanted us to be delivered from. lol

Hell, just like the 'rapture' isn't in the bible at all.

Call it whatever you want to.  Playground of the demons, 1,000,000 oboists playing out of tune, the Naugler Outhouse...  Jesus referred to a very real place that Peter refers to as "hell," when translated into English by the majority of biblical translators.  You say tomay-to.  I say tomah-to.  Jesus never said that salvation is mostly from ourselves.  I'm not gonna hit anyone over the head with a Bible but you either know your Bible or you don't.  If you don't, that's fine.  It's easy enough with today's technology to get your hands on scripture to read it for yourself.

A few contextual references to hell-not-always-called-hell-but-a-place-where-no-one-is-itchin'-to-go:

• The Abyss (Revelation 20:1)
• Hades/Lake of Fire/Second Death (Rev. 20:14)
• Fiery lake of burning sulfur/the second death (Rev. 21:8)
• Hell (Matthew 10:28)
• Blazing Furnace (Matt. 13:50)
• Punishment of eternal fire (Jude 1:7)
• Realm of the Dead (Proverbs 15:24)

FWIW, the word "trinity" also isn't in the Bible, but the teaching and concept of the three-in-one Godhead is very clear.  A difficult concept to wrap our human brains around, but definitely a "thing" taught in Scripture.

 

Back to the original discussion about microchips and the mark of the beast, no one but God knows what the mark of the beast is going to be.  Therefore, I don't have a problem with microchips.  In me?  Maybe not.  In my dogs?  Absolutely!  In my bank card?  ...Meh...

Public service announcement:  microchipping pets does absolutely no good if owners don't bother to register those microchips in a national database and keep the information updated.  It's not at all uncommon around here for stray dogs to be found who are microchipped but not registered.  I found a dog once who had a microchip from several states away.  There was zero info about the owners, however.  The dog had to be rehomed.

[molecule]

Whether or not hell is an actual place, named or not named in the bible, Christians believe that we will be with God in the afterlife. We call that heaven. Perhaps hell is the word we used to refer to eternal separation from God. It isn't so much that I don't want to go to hell as that I do want to be with God.

1 hour ago, docmom said:

If God is omniscient why would he need people to be marked or not?  He'd know who was saved and who wasn't.

God knows--but a mark would let others know as well. And it makes a difference to us as individuals what team we claim for ourselves. In my professional life, very few people know that I am Christian. Personal faith and religion just don't come up that much. If I had a mark that others could see, my faith would always be front and center, in every aspect of my life. (In fact, that is something I've been wrestling with for a while.)

[THERetroGamerNY]

1 hour ago, Gimme a Free RV said:

Call it whatever you want to.  Playground of the demons, 1,000,000 oboists playing out of tune, the Naugler Outhouse...  Jesus referred to a very real place that Peter refers to as "hell," when translated into English by the majority of biblical translators.  You say tomay-to.  I say tomah-to.  Jesus never said that salvation is mostly from ourselves.  I'm not gonna hit anyone over the head with a Bible but you either know your Bible or you don't.  If you don't, that's fine.  It's easy enough with today's technology to get your hands on scripture to read it for yourself.

A few contextual references to hell-not-always-called-hell-but-a-place-where-no-one-is-itchin'-to-go:

• The Abyss (Revelation 20:1)
• Hades/Lake of Fire/Second Death (Rev. 20:14)
• Fiery lake of burning sulfur/the second death (Rev. 21:8)
• Hell (Matthew 10:28)
• Blazing Furnace (Matt. 13:50)
• Punishment of eternal fire (Jude 1:7)
• Realm of the Dead (Proverbs 15:24)

FWIW, the word "trinity" also isn't in the Bible, but the teaching and concept of the three-in-one Godhead is very clear.  A difficult concept to wrap our human brains around, but definitely a "thing" taught in Scripture.

I'm sorry, I was unaware that this was a theological debate between me and you. My initial opinion was given to the OP, and you asked me a simple question, to which I again gave my opinion. I also have little desire to enter into such a debate, given your attitude.

Your snide statement of "you either know your bible or you don't" smacks of an attempt to establish yourself as an authority on this topic. You will excuse me if I do not recognize this.

And yes, the trinity is very easy to grasp for our human minds: It's called polytheism.

[Gimme a Free RV]

Actually, I didn't think I touting an attitude or being snide.   You either know the Bible or you don't.  You either know the plots of all the Harry Potter books or you don't.  (I don't, actually.)  You either recognize the smell of hot apple pie or you don't.  Did my knowing something from the Bible insult your intelligence of knowing that the Hebrew word for "hell" is "sheol"?  If you have theological credentials that trump my knowledge of the Bible (and there are WAY more people out there who know WAY more than I do) and my discussing this with you has somehow threatened whatever button I've obviously pushed, then lets move on.  However, when you imply that Jesus did or didn't teach certain things, then I have to stand up for what I believe and back it up with Scripture.  If I didn't, what kind of "believer" would I be?  And yes, I'm aware that people who aren't believers think of the theology of the Trinity as polytheism but Jesus clearly said that He and the Father are One and that He would send the Holy Spirit to comfort His disciples.  Since only God is Holy and Jesus and God are One (Jesus' words, not mine), then the Trinity is One.

I mean, we could debate this until the cows come home but, as I've seen in prior posts of yours, you tend to get VERY defensive.  If you are a fairly educated individual, which you seem to be, then you wouldn't mind a friendly debate.

@iweartanktops said at the onset:

I really want to hear from some practicing Christians about this from a religious standpoint. Calling @Gimme a Free RV,and others! 

So, I've been invited to join the discussion here.  You aren't banned from joining it, either, nor am I forbidden to respond to your remarks.  We clearly don't see eye to eye and I never insist that people HAVE to agree with me.  I don't mind voicing where I'm coming from, though.  I have examined and re-examined what I wrote and I honestly don't get your accusations. 

[FundieFarmer]

I wouldn't mind a chip, for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is because I think privacy is a concept that has long flown the coop. I may be a "private" person in many senses of the word, but I know I am grasping at straws. 

[OnceUponATime]

21 minutes ago, FundieFarmer said:

I think privacy is a concept that has long flown the coop.

IMO, while privacy is evolving, you still have a little bit of choice at the moment in how private your life is. I can still leave my electronics at home, jump on my non-gps tracked bike and no one will know where I've gone if I avoid the traffic cameras*. If I was chipped with something that allowed for tracking, that possibility would no longer exist. Unless of course I had a jamming device (which I'm assuming would be illegal).

I have novel- induced paranoia about it, because implanted chips are used to track down people for secret government labs way too often in some of the books I have read. I would not like a chip.

*Unless google satellite is taking photos, like it did last year when I was watering the garden.

[FundieFarmer]

11 minutes ago, OnceUponATime said:

*Unless google satellite is taking photos, like it did last year when I was watering the garden.

BAHAHAHA, that was an asterisk I was not expecting. Love it, OUAT. 

I guess when I say chip, I mean something that functions like a dog's chip. Only to be scanned when needed...not actively and forever linked to something. Just somewhere that would hold all of your medical files so you could be identified if needed, something like that. 

[Palimpsest]

I never understood why Revelation was included in the Bible anyway.

There was so much squabbling over it over the centuries and it is such an outlier in the NT.

It's always read to me like the ramblings of a rather disturbed mind.  MMV, of course.

[formergothardite]

I have wondered if he was speaking in some sort of code that the people who received the letter would understand, while the rest of us don't. 

[Gimme a Free RV]

I've heard that it was a message written in code so he could continue to preach from his imprisonment on the Isle of Patmos.  I've heard this was a vision, much like Ezekiel's visions.  I've heard this was a dream God caused him to have.  Theories abound.

[THERetroGamerNY]

 

Actually, I didn't think I touting an attitude or being snide.   You either know the Bible or you don't.  You either know the plots of all the Harry Potter books or you don't. 

I apologize.

Religious discussions on the internet typically go downhill fast... And I do have anger issues, am kinda tonedeaf at times... Touchy. I loathe anybody quoting swathes of scripture at me... When my pet fundie friend of mine setup our blog to discuss religion we did it because it was a safe place, and we know each other... In most instances otherwise my default reaction is Red Alert and raise shields. :/

I think it is somewhat... Doubtful... To say that you "know the Bible". There have been so many sects, splits, fights, and rabid disagreements over people who all make this claim that it rather did trigger me. Sorry.

Harry Potter, on the other hand, has had no such splitting.

"Sheol" doesn't mean "hell". It means "land of the dead". Christianity takes a lot of theology from Classical Greece, and this is a word that references the same domain that we associate with Hades. It was a place all dead went to... Gloomy and depressing.

The Pharisees are the ones who invented the fiery notions of Hell, and lorded it over believers like jerks.

When Constantine did his whole 50 bibles thing, I honestly have zero problems believing that he mixed in all sorts of ideas... He seems to have wanted to please all, and basically be a pagan Christian. Kinda curious idea, actually... Reminds me if those Chrisian Atheists. 

But I'm fairly certain that he mixed fiery Hell in there. I doubt Jesus actually spoke of it. His message was fairly radical enougn without notions of a fiery pit of flames.

To me, Jesus just wanted to save us all from our own selves... No need for Hell when we make our own.

And that actually is polytheism that you described: Different aspects of a single main diety. Zeus was described in the same manner. All the minor gods were aspects of him.

And Revelations? Kinda a useless book. It's so utterly symbolic it could be anything. I do find it telling that all the major references to Hell are in that one book though.

[Gimme a Free RV]

Well, thank you for your insights and introspective comments.

Jesus did indeed talk about fire when he referred to hell.  

Now, my apologies for the wording "know the Bible."  It is better to say having read and studied the Bible.  The reason I join the snark on FJ against particular fundies is because I can't stand their hypocrisy and legalism.  I don't think they represent the God I know and love in an honest and positive light.

Seriously, I dont need for you to agree with me.  It doesn't hurt my feelings.  There are many discussions I avoid on FJ because I know they are triggers for me.  I really do try my best to maintain a peaceful demeanor here...while I wait for someone to Gimme a free RV!

Peace.

[Petrel]

22 hours ago, Gimme a Free RV said:

FWIW, the word "trinity" also isn't in the Bible, but the teaching and concept of the three-in-one Godhead is very clear.  A difficult concept to wrap our human brains around, but definitely a "thing" taught in Scripture.

No it's not clear. It's so unclear it took them a few hundred years to sort it out, mostly by dint of executing the nontrinitarians.

[Gimme a Free RV]

12 minutes ago, Petrel said:

No it's not clear. It's so unclear it took them a few hundred years to sort it out, mostly by dint of executing the nontrinitarians.

Sorry.  Clear to me and to others whose teaching has impacted my view of Scripture.  I realize I don't speak for everyone but, yes, it is very clear to me, even without extra-biblical commentaries or notes. 

[Petrel]

In my process of deconverting I discovered the doctrines that seem most obvious to me were the ones I was raised with...  They also became a good deal less obvious when I learned more about church history, alternate interpretations, and really read all relevant scriptures and thought about them.  For instance, I don't think there is support for "once saved always saved". 

[Gimme a Free RV]

(Can't get my phone to cooperate and lose the quote thingy.  Sorry!)

Petrel, it is a beautiful day here and I hope it is where you are, too.  I have already said on this thread what I intended to and really don't need to add anything else.  I don't mean that as snark at all.  I truly hope that you and all our co-FJers have a great weekend with lots of relaxation and no worries.

I wish you and all those who disagree and agree with me and each other a glorious, joyful weekend.  

[Pammy]

There's a Revelation-Ezekiel-Daniel trifecta going on in the Bible which makes it impossible to interpret John's work (Revelation) without a significant and nuanced understanding of the other two.

Since very few fundies have *any* comprehension of the Old Testament beyond sundayschool stories (and since they flee from nuanced and responsible Bible study overall) it's pretty much guaranteed that their guesswork around Revelation is abysmal.

The mark of the beast is also beyond my ability to responsibly interpret off the top of my head, but I'm thinking (just taking a stab) it must be (a) an act of idolatry; (b) something done consciously with knowkedge of the implications; (c) somehow related to patriotism, or nations, or leaders; and (d) reversible through repentance.

Currently my best guess is that it is a symbolic use of an actual ancient-day practice (perhaps branding or tattooing?) standing in for the general idea of any open proclaimation of absolute loyalty-and-love to one's earthly 'kingdom' and 'it's god' --above a Christan's supposed primary allegiance to the God of Jesus and 'his kingdom'... With the implication that the motivation to do that is economic freedom. Therefore the reader is led to consider the potential 'real world cost' of holding the kingdom of God in primary loyalty.

[Curious]

I haven't read this thread , which I know is annoying to then comment, but I'm going to do it anyway

I would not mind some kind of chip that could be scanned (ONLY WHEN NECESSARY) that held my medical information.   When the first 1/2 hour of any new appointment is me going through my complex history for the nurse, then the dr again, I want to just slam my head into a wall.

If they could scan something and get all that info to save us all time, I'd totally be on board!

That being said, I don't even chip my pets.  If I had dogs that were bolters or indoor/outdoor cats I probably would though.   My chihuahuas think there is an invisible chihuahua barrier at the front door that keeps them from crossing the threshold (going out) and I have not tried to convince them it doesn't exist

[HerNameIsBuffy]

15 hours ago, formergothardite said:

I have wondered if he was speaking in some sort of code that the people who received the letter would understand, while the rest of us don't. 

That's the theory that makes me the most sense to me.  That is was a coded political statement address the issues of their time and not meant to have greater meaning.

[Loveday]

4 minutes ago, Curious said:

I haven't read this thread , which I know is annoying to then comment, but I'm going to do it anyway

I would not mind some kind of chip that could be scanned (ONLY WHEN NECESSARY) that held my medical information.   When the first 1/2 hour of any new appointment is me going through my complex history for the nurse, then the dr again, I want to just slam my head into a wall.

If they could scan something and get all that info to save us all time, I'd totally be on board!

That being said, I don't even chip my pets.  If I had dogs that were bolters or indoor/outdoor cats I probably would though.   My chihuahuas think there is an invisible chihuahua barrier at the front door that keeps them from crossing the threshold (going out) and I have not tried to convince them it doesn't exist

This. I go to my primary care physician at least once every three months (diabetic, have to monitor my A1c along with other issues), and they ask me the same barrage of questions every. single. time. 

[refugee]

2 hours ago, Pammy said:

There's a Revelation-Ezekiel-Daniel trifecta going on in the Bible which makes it impossible to interpret John's work (Revelation) without a significant and nuanced understanding of the other two.

Since very few fundies have *any* comprehension of the Old Testament beyond sundayschool stories (and since they flee from nuanced and responsible Bible study overall) it's pretty much guaranteed that their guesswork around Revelation is abysmal.

That trifecta idea is interesting. I'm not sure I've heard that before. (Not surprising -- our former brand of a-millenial reformed types explained away almost all future prophecy as applying to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.)

[ETA: I think "a-millenial" is right. It's all such jargon...]

Add to the OT stories you mentioned a carefully picked-and-chosen selection of OT laws, and you'd be describing our former church (and their "like-minded" associates).

While the "mark of the beast" meant nothing to them, so far as I remember (they turned up their noses at Tribulation and Rapture proponents and found the "Left Behind" series ludicrous), they were still anti-government, among other things. If there *were* a beast, in their teaching, I'd have to think it referred to either the RC church or the government.

[Marshmallow World]

I've been thinking about this topic for the last couple of days, not sure if and how I would respond. I'm a couple of margaritas into my Memorial Day weekend (it's after noon - don't judge!) and decided to jump in.

I was a home-schooled kid from 1st to 9th grade. We were homeschooled because of what my mother thought was taught in public school. This was the height of the satanic panic, and teaching evolution was right up there as a reason, as well. My mother truly believed that public schools taught satanism, practiced ritualistic satanic abuse and required atheism/denying God. My mother had mental health issues that our church told her was a sin issue and bought into Hal Lindsey's teachings hook, line and sinker. Everything was a sign that the tribulation was at hand. The formation of the European Union was a sign - the Mark of the Beast wasn't far behind. David Koresh was proclaiming himself Christ - the Mark of the Beast wasn't far behind. Helicopters and bombs were described in Revelation - the Gulf War means the Mark of the Beast is going to be here, like, tomorrow. The threat of the tribulation was a constant, looming presence in my life. 

The church we attended at that time was technically pre-tribulation but the eschatological Bible studies would often debate pre- and post-tribulation. I would sit there and just inwardly freak out. The tribulation sounded horrifying, to say the least. I remember lying in bed night after night feeling abject terror in my body - what if I wasn't a good enough Christian to be raptured? What if the rapture didn't come until after the tribulation? How would my family survive? Would I have to watch my little brothers starve to death, or be killed? Would I have to go to a guillotine because I would refuse to get the Mark of the Beast? Would I be brave enough to refuse the Mark? When the time came (and it was imminent) that I had to choose between accepting the Mark to stay alive knowing that I was doomed to hell for eternity or refusing and being led to my immediate death, what would I do? The Mark of the Beast was understood to be a microchip that they would put in your hand or your forehead (and no one in our theological circle questioned this interpretation). Every time there was a news story about ATMs, or a new microchip method, my mother would harp on and on about how the Antichrist was putting the wheels in motion to kill all Christians who refuse to take the Mark.

This kind of talk seems dramatic, but you have to understand this was my day-to-day life. Saying things like "We'll have spaghetti for dinner if Jesus doesn't return" was normal. I walked around for years absolutely terrified and feeling guilty on top of it, because why was I so scared of the Rapture and tribulation? I cried a lot, I made bargains with God, I worried about growing older and having a child because the Bible says "Woe to those mothers with nursing babies" (I did not want to see my future baby die). There was no joy. Only fear.

Fast forward to now. I no longer believe in the religion I was raised in. I don't believe in the Rapture, or the tribulation. However, every time I see a story like this, that terror creeps into my stomach for just a second. Fear of this is so engrained in my psyche that it took years of therapy and breaking away to get away from it, and it's still rattling around in there somewhere. It's powerful shit. Thankfully my mom has long chilled out and gotten the help she needed, and irony of ironies my youngest brother who I used to stay up at night worrying about is now the fundamentalist Evangelical pastor going to seminary and using me, the heathen apostate sister, as sermon illustrations (that's another story). It's beyond fucked up that I was taught teachings that can still to this day cause me to (albeit briefly) freeze in terror. It's hard to describe. I don't give those thoughts any power, but they are there. These kind of belief systems can cause damage looooooong after you decide you don't believe it anymore. 

So tl;dr: Stuff like this freaks me out for a hot second because of my childhood, but I no longer believe in the narrative I was raised in. 

PS - whew. Sorry so long.