Anna & the M Kids – Part 7

[IReallyAmHopewell]

On 5/29/2016 at 8:40 AM, BabyBottlePop said:

I thought the Duggars believed children should be in services and no nurseries. (I'm blanking on the phrase they call churches who don't have them).

That is for church. They are Family Integrated Church--no age segregation at all in teaching, but some do have a nursery for babies and most have a "cry room" or breasfeeding room where Mom can listen to the service.

[theinvisiblegirl]

On 5/31/2016 at 2:01 AM, Chevreuil said:

I go to a church where my kids sit with me during the service. If they get too noisy or distracting, I remove them and talk to them about being respectful while others are speaking (after a certain age, obviously I'm not removing my infants and lecturing them on respectful conduct lol). Most people bring snacks and quiet activities for kids of a certain age (usually from 1-4 years). After that some families expect them to be able to sit for the hour, others continue to bring activities, even for teens. I kind of look at it as good practice for when my kids start school and need to be able to sit and be quiet during class but I still bring activities for my middle kids (4 and 5) but the 13 year old I don't, he has duties to perform during service so he wouldn't need it anyway.

Church isn't mandatory for my kids anyway, they come if they want to or they stay home with their dad. Usually they go, they have friends and the Sunday class after service is actually a lot of fun.

I think it's really great that you don't make church mandatory for your children. I think part of my reluctance to go is that it was never really an option to not go. Once I made my confirmation sophomore year, I was considered an adult in the eyes of the church, and I made the adult decision to stop going.

 

[Chevreuil]

15 hours ago, theinvisiblegirl said:

I think it's really great that you don't make church mandatory for your children. I think part of my reluctance to go is that it was never really an option to not go. Once I made my confirmation sophomore year, I was considered an adult in the eyes of the church, and I made the adult decision to stop going.

 

My husband was forced to go to church as a child and really resented it and his parents for doing that. So when we started having kids (husband is an atheist so usually doesn't attend with me. Sometimes he does, if there is an important event) we discussed how our interfaith family would work when it came to children. We decided that I was not make them feel forced (I can't tell them they have to go, or that not believing what I believe will make me love them less or threaten them with hell or whatever. I wouldn't have done any of that anyway) and he was not to talk negatively about religion (he is free to talk about his lack of faith and what he disagrees with but not say unproductive things like "church is stupid" or "people who believe in God are dumb" or whatever. Like with my part, he wouldn't have done that anyway). 

 

I feel so bad for the kids and adult children of fundies like the duggars. It must be so exhausting to be afraid all the time. The only way to keep people so sheltered is through fear and I just can't imagine living that way and wouldn't want my kids living like that. (Besides healthy fears, like not running into the road or approaching strange dogs without permission, I think having a healthy fear of things like that is important). I hope they realise they can have a healthy relationship with God (or none at all if that is the case. I wouldn't be angry if my kids chose to not believe) and that they can be their own person without being sent to hell or having God "punish" them for having different views or opinions than their parents. 

[twinmama]

On 6/1/2016 at 11:40 AM, theinvisiblegirl said:

I think it's really great that you don't make church mandatory for your children. I think part of my reluctance to go is that it was never really an option to not go. Once I made my confirmation sophomore year, I was considered an adult in the eyes of the church, and I made the adult decision to stop going.

Oh man, I SO wanted to quit after confirmation but my parents were the "you live under my roof, you will go to church with the family" types. The second I left the house, I stopped going to church though. They even made me go in the summer when I was home from college! And on Christmas when I was an adult who lived out of the house but came to spend the holidays! I finally went home with my husband to my parents house and said I just won't go to church on Christmas and there was nothing they could do to make me.

Oddly, by the next year my parents had all but abandoned Catholicism/religion as well. Now on Christmas Eve we worship good food and time with family instead of sitting in a packed to the gills church. It's much nicer. lol

[theinvisiblegirl]

20 hours ago, Chevreuil said:

My husband was forced to go to church as a child and really resented it and his parents for doing that. So when we started having kids (husband is an atheist so usually doesn't attend with me. Sometimes he does, if there is an important event) we discussed how our interfaith family would work when it came to children. We decided that I was not make them feel forced (I can't tell them they have to go, or that not believing what I believe will make me love them less or threaten them with hell or whatever. I wouldn't have done any of that anyway) and he was not to talk negatively about religion (he is free to talk about his lack of faith and what he disagrees with but not say unproductive things like "church is stupid" or "people who believe in God are dumb" or whatever. Like with my part, he wouldn't have done that anyway). 

<snip>

That's such a great system to have, really. The only type of person I could see threatening to love their child less for not going to church would be... Well, a Duggar or Bates or other type of uber fundie.

6 hours ago, twinmama said:

Oh man, I SO wanted to quit after confirmation but my parents were the "you live under my roof, you will go to church with the family" types. The second I left the house, I stopped going to church though. They even made me go in the summer when I was home from college! And on Christmas when I was an adult who lived out of the house but came to spend the holidays! I finally went home with my husband to my parents house and said I just won't go to church on Christmas and there was nothing they could do to make me.

Oddly, by the next year my parents had all but abandoned Catholicism/religion as well. Now on Christmas Eve we worship good food and time with family instead of sitting in a packed to the gills church. It's much nicer. lol

Now when my mother talks about religion, she kind of has the attitude of "It's a cult! It's all a big cult!" Luckily, both of my parents were forced to go to church all their lives when they really didn't want to, and they both didn't want to raise me like that. So it was more of a you went if you went and if you didn't then oh well.  When I made the decision to stop going (a gradual thing, it wasn't the weekend after Confirmation and I was like "No, I'm sleeping in today" ), they didn't continue to make an effort to go. If anything, I think we were sometimes just going to appease my grandparents who both, at the time, worked at the church we attended. And if we weren't going together in some combination of the 3 of us, we weren't going at all because then who would we snark with about things the priest said or what someone else was saying/doing?

[LadyCrow1313]

On ‎5‎/‎31‎/‎2016 at 9:21 AM, Four is Enough said:

Jucifer: the national anthem has ALWAYS made me cry... nothing wrong with that!

ETA: TTTT, sometimes, "Oh, Canada" will make me cry, too!
 

I think it's because I know the words to these two songs.

I always cry when I hear "Amazing Grace" on bagpipes. I'm not ashamed that I do either, & I'm sure that other folks @ the Scottish Games I go to do the same. (And I fully confess that this started many moons ago with the 2nd Star Trek movie, Wrath of Khan.) 

[TheDuggarnaut]

6 hours ago, LadyCrow1313 said:

I always cry when I hear "Amazing Grace" on bagpipes. I'm not ashamed that I do either, & I'm sure that other folks @ the Scottish Games I go to do the same. (And I fully confess that this started many moons ago with the 2nd Star Trek movie, Wrath of Khan.) 

OMG yes, the Wrath of Khan!

[Elvis Presby]

9 hours ago, LadyCrow1313 said:

I always cry when I hear "Amazing Grace" on bagpipes. I'm not ashamed that I do either, & I'm sure that other folks @ the Scottish Games I go to do the same. (And I fully confess that this started many moons ago with the 2nd Star Trek movie, Wrath of Khan.) 

 

9 hours ago, LadyCrow1313 said:

 

Sorry about the 2 quote boxes.

 

My maternal grandmother died 10 years ago this month.  She told everyone that she was Irish.  Turns out, she wasn't Irish.  She was Scottish!  Her great-great-grandfather came to the US in the late 18th century.  After learning more about her heritage, she became less petulant about not being Irish.  We hired a piper to play at her funeral.  Amazing Grace was one of the 3 songs he played.  I can't listen to AG on the pipes without starting the waterworks!

 

Bridge Over Troubled Water has the same effect.  I had that played at my dad's funeral 5 years ago.  (not on the pipes, though)

[OrchidBlossom]

On 6/2/2016 at 3:44 AM, Chevreuil said:

My husband was forced to go to church as a child and really resented it and his parents for doing that. So when we started having kids (husband is an atheist so usually doesn't attend with me. Sometimes he does, if there is an important event) we discussed how our interfaith family would work when it came to children. We decided that I was not make them feel forced (I can't tell them they have to go, or that not believing what I believe will make me love them less or threaten them with hell or whatever. I wouldn't have done any of that anyway) and he was not to talk negatively about religion (he is free to talk about his lack of faith and what he disagrees with but not say unproductive things like "church is stupid" or "people who believe in God are dumb" or whatever. Like with my part, he wouldn't have done that anyway). 

 

I feel so bad for the kids and adult children of fundies like the duggars. It must be so exhausting to be afraid all the time. The only way to keep people so sheltered is through fear and I just can't imagine living that way and wouldn't want my kids living like that. (Besides healthy fears, like not running into the road or approaching strange dogs without permission, I think having a healthy fear of things like that is important). I hope they realise they can have a healthy relationship with God (or none at all if that is the case. I wouldn't be angry if my kids chose to not believe) and that they can be their own person without being sent to hell or having God "punish" them for having different views or opinions than their parents. 

I really admire people who can make this kind of system work. I'm an atheist but I've dated people from various backgrounds. My sticking points are really just that I won't have religious overtones to any gatherings or celebrations held in my home (so no grace over meals, no prayer if we host Thanksgiving, that sort of thing, but only organized like if someone or a group of people wishes to pray over their meal privately that wouldn't bother me) and although I will be quiet and respectful during those kinds of moments in someone else's home (you're feeding me the least I can do is sit quietly while you say grace, I figure) I won't actively participate or allow my very young kids to participate (if they're old enough to understand it and choose it though, knock themselves out, I just don't want it ritualized for kids before they are able to understand it), and that I don't want my in-laws taking my kids to church before they are old enough to understand it (I have known people who bribe their small children/nieces/grandkids into going to church or who only spend time with them during church services so the small kids don't really understand church but see it as the only way to gain affection from a family member, which is why I am against it). Every person I have dated has been against those ground rules. And never in like a calm "well, let's discuss" way, because I am open to compromise when the situation calls for it (like if your family has some really special Easter tradition that involves church and you want our kids to go, all right maybe that's okay, I'm open to those things) they were always really angry at me for suggesting that I might have specific wishes for how my children would be raised in relation to faith. One even told me one time that since I didn't *have* a religion I had no right to make rules about how or when my children were exposed to religious ideas, which was kind of the attitude a lot of people I dated seemed to take.

Of course, then I realized I really don't want kids at all and started exclusively dating men and women who don't want kids either and I have found that much of the issues surrounding interfaith relationships disappear when kids are not in the equation anymore. Although at this point it appears my life partner will end up being an atheist too, unless we tragically break up and I have to go back to fielding "how could you possibly not want children?!? Look at these pictures of my babies and tell me you don't want your own right now?!!" discussions all by my lonesome.

[twinmama]

11 hours ago, LadyCrow1313 said:

I always cry when I hear "Amazing Grace" on bagpipes. I'm not ashamed that I do either, & I'm sure that other folks @ the Scottish Games I go to do the same. (And I fully confess that this started many moons ago with the 2nd Star Trek movie, Wrath of Khan.) 

If we are talking about odd crying moments, I'll tell you I will never hear the end of this one... I am a huge cry baby, but I didn't cry at all during our wedding ceremony. My husband on the other hand was practically sobbing from the second he stepped out the door to walk to the altar. Then, on our honeymoon we watched the horrible remake of The Day The Earth Stood Still, which starred Keanu Reeves and THAT made me cry!!! So yeah, didn't cry during my wedding, died during a terrible remake of a movie that was completely not a tearjerker.

[MakeItSo]

I had to learn the hard way that I cannot watch adoption story documentaries on netflix with my roomies because while my buddies sit there all "that's sad"...I'm fighting major t-...allergies. It's allergies. Men don't cry. Ever. 

(Nothing wrong with crying. It was something I did not see coming. I couldn't cry during one of my grandparents' funerals. I was just numb. But watching adoption stories...that does it. Humans are weird.)

[Mothership]

I'm not normally a crier.  I don't cry at songs.

I do cry at the end of "Homeward Bound" --seen the movie too many times (a favorite of my kids back in the day) and I'm never convinced that Shadow is going to make it home--and then he does!

[Gobsmacked]

On 31 May 2016 at 2:21 PM, Four is Enough said:

Jucifer: the national anthem has ALWAYS made me cry... nothing wrong with that!

ETA: TTTT, sometimes, "Oh, Canada" will make me cry, too!
 

I think it's because I know the words to these two songs.

The Canadian anthem always makes me cry at Hockey games. Im British! 

The British national anthem never makes me cry. It's boring and doesn't really mean much.

[Bad Wolf]

6 minutes ago, Gobsmacked said:

The Canadian anthem always makes me cry at Hockey games. Im British! 

The British national anthem never makes me cry. It's boring and doesn't really mean much.

And when you're in the US, it's "My Country tis of thee". I've been known to sing "God save the queen" under my breath.

[General Jinjur]

35 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

And when you're in the US, it's "My Country tis of thee". I've been known to sing "God save the queen" under my breath.

Ha! I do the opposite. I'm dual Canadian/American, but totally anti-monarchy.

 

[Geechee Girl]

On 5/25/2016 at 4:46 PM, EmCatlyn said:

In the American South, people are big on bringing the whole family to funerals. When my dad died and (at my mom's request) I didn't bring the kids down to Florida to the funeral, my mom's American neighbors were shocked.  And my daughter, who was raised in the South, felt that she had been excluded from something that she should have been allowed to attend.

This is true for me and everyone I know in the South. I didn't know there was such a thing as prohibiting children from the wake, funeral, and internment, until I attended one in SoCal. The children of the decedent were intentionally left home with a sitter. Where I'm from, death is just another rite of passage where the entire family participates.  

[missegeno]

I'm from the Midwest and I would feel similarly hurt if I was left at home for bereavement services as a child. I didn't realize that was a thing.

[EmCatlyn]

On June 4, 2016 at 3:14 PM, missegeno said:

I'm from the Midwest and I would feel similarly hurt if I was left at home for bereavement services as a child. I didn't realize that was a thing.

 There are always exceptions and variations, but in general I find that Southerners tend to be particularly "into" big family funerals which everyone except the house pets and farm animals attend, while the idea of restricting the attendance of children to at least some parts of the bereavement activities is more common in places like California and New York.

Some adults feel that it can be scary for children below the age of 12 or 13 to participate in a wake or funeral.  Others don't want children around below age 8 or 9 because they might distract from the solemnity of the occasion.   Religion, level of education and the type of family may be factors.  I don't know much about other regions than the South except what friends from other areas tell me.

None of my friends raised in the northeast found it odd that my kids stayed with their father (who was then my husband) while I went alone to Florida.  Among other things, there was the cost of the plane fare and we had just been in Florida a couple of weeks earlier.   But the Southerners were shocked that we didn't all travel for the funeral.

My mom said that the funeral would be "too sad" and too long for the kids. This was in keeping with her general belief about funerals and kids, but it also reflected her own needs at the time.  She would have felt that she had to control her grief around the kids, and she didn't want that pressure.  I was inclined to give my mom anything she wanted at that moment, but I would have brought my daughter down for the funeral if I had known she wanted to attend. I just didn't think to ask her, in the midst of the shock and grief. (I made it up to her by taking her to a Catholic Church near where we lived and each of us lighting a candle for her grandfather and saying a special prayer. --we were Unitarian at the time  but my Dad was a Catholic. And eventually she got to visit the niche where his ashes had been placed.)

I did not grow up expecting kids to attend funerals, though my mom did.  As a child in the 1930s she was somewhat traumatized by some family funerals and I think that colored her thinking about kids and funerals.  I think I was 17 before I attended my first funeral.  I was over 40 at my first open-casket funeral.  My daughter, on the other hand, was going to the funerals of her friends' grandparents before she was 12.  Here in the South, kids invite their best friends to help them grieve.   

Anyway, my point was merely that it is unlikely the M-kids were excluded from a Kellar family funeral, even there are no pictures of them there. These are Southerners, and even outside the South, family funerals can be a big deal.

 

 

[19 cats and counting]

On 6/4/2016 at 4:14 PM, missegeno said:

I'm from the Midwest and I would feel similarly hurt if I was left at home for bereavement services as a child. I didn't realize that was a thing.

My sister didn't bring my niece(s) to either of my grandfathers' funerals.  Older niece was 15 months when maternal grandfather died.  She was 3 when paternal grandfather died and younger niece was 11.5 months).  She left them with her MIL.  

I'm not sure if she would have brought them if they were older (aka beyond naptime).  I was 6 when my great grandmother died (first death in the family I was old enough to understand) and was left home with my mom.   

The girls only met my grandfathers once in their lives, and not when they were old enough to remember.  

(I'm in the northeast).

[Jana814]

The first funeral I went to was my uncle's I was 11. His death was traumatizing so the funeral was not good. Also bring that my family is Jewish funerals are very quickly after death. 

Maybe the M kids didn't go to funeral & stayed in Arkansas will the Duggars. 

[Chickenbutt]

My FIL died when my oldest son was almost 3. He, and all the other young children, where left at my MIL's house with a relative during the services. Everyone came back to my MIL's home after the services. The little kids were welcome to mingle with all the adults then. My son walked around telling all the men (friends and co-workers of my FIL) that "he had a pee-pee like theirs, not like mommy's". I have to say, he lightened the mood considerably.

[nokidsmom]

On 6/2/2016 at 4:47 PM, twinmama said:

Oh man, I SO wanted to quit after confirmation but my parents were the "you live under my roof, you will go to church with the family" types. The second I left the house, I stopped going to church though. They even made me go in the summer when I was home from college! And on Christmas when I was an adult who lived out of the house but came to spend the holidays! I finally went home with my husband to my parents house and said I just won't go to church on Christmas and there was nothing they could do to make me.

Oddly, by the next year my parents had all but abandoned Catholicism/religion as well. Now on Christmas Eve we worship good food and time with family instead of sitting in a packed to the gills church. It's much nicer. lol

These were my parents, so long as we were under their roof, we were required to go to church. My parents were making my sisters in their 30's still go which I thought was ridiculous.   While I didn't want to leave as soon as I was confirmed, by the time I left college, I was over it.    I stopped as soon as I moved out, something that always bothered my parents but their problem, not mine.

 

[EmainMacha]

In my part of Ireland we wake people at home. Traditionally the person is at home for two nights and then buried on the third day. As a child I went to quite a few wakes and viewed bodies but rarely went to funerals as they weren't considered appropriate for children. Think I went to my first funeral around age 10. Still not sure why one was okay and the other wasn't.

[Ungodly Grandma]

7 minutes ago, EmainMacha said:

In my part of Ireland we wake people at home. Traditionally the person is at home for two nights and then buried on the third day. As a child I went to quite a few wakes and viewed bodies but rarely went to funerals as they weren't considered appropriate for children. Think I went to my first funeral around age 10. Still not sure why one was okay and the other wasn't.

Each of my parents, children of Irish immigrants in NYC, lost a sibling. They were waked at home. I believe the children also went to the funeral, though. This would have been in the 1940's.

I'm editing this to add, maybe the children are not at funerals, because that Mass is so very sad. Perhaps the adults wanted to be free to give in to their grief? 

 

[EmainMacha]

9 minutes ago, Ungodly Grandma said:

Each of my parents, children of Irish immigrants in NYC, lost a sibling. They were waked at home. I believe the children also went to the funeral, though. This would have been in the 1940's.

 

When my friend's dad died when we were 9 she went to the funeral but I didn't, though I spent all of the wake at her house. I think very close family tend to go to the funerals.

We still wake people at home in most of Northern Ireland but I know it isn't so common in parts of Southern Ireland now. If you don't wake people at home where I'm from people would talk. And you aren't meant to go out socialising for a month at least. The stricter people don't watch tv and put sheets over the mirrors but you see that less and less- really only in the countryside.

Very sorry for your parent's loss. It must be hard to lose a sibling. I always tear up reading Seamus Heaney's poem 'Mid term break' about losing his brother. Feel very lucky not to have had that experience.