What's The Difference Between LDS and Fundamentalists?

[theinvisiblegirl]

Last night on Sister Wives, Kody Brown drove to Utah with his wife (#3) Christine and their daughter Mykelti, as she was moving there to work for a family friend. This family friend is LDS. They both spoke about religion and their friendship. Kody said something along the lines of "He's got his religion and I've got mine and they're very different and, ultimately, he's not interested in learning about my religion and I'm not interested in learning about his." (Excuse the horrible paraphrasing.)

This got me thinking. What exactly is the difference between regular LDS Mormons and the fundamentalists? Do they simply believe in the same things, but the fundamentalists practice "the principle"?

I realize the various fundamentalist groups believe in slightly different ways of doing things - I just read about the Kingston clan, and they preach a very different version of the Book of Mormon. But are there big differences between the basic beliefs, or are they pretty much similar?

[mstee]

My understanding is that the fundamental difference is polygamy, and that there are other differences with how the Book of Mormon is interpreted. Obviously with some of the more extreme groups like the FLDS you are getting some pretty wild interpretations. The AUB might have similar take on it to the LDS. Plus I think small things/quirks (like everyone joking how Mormons love jello molds) form overtime, slowly adding subtle differences. Like comparing different cultures.  Also, I know in the LDS community going on missions is an important thing to do, mostly for young men. I don't think any of the fundamentalist groups do mission work.

On a Kody note, I think it's funny he'd say that. Assuming his friend is LDS. Kody was a member of the Mormon church till he was a young adult. So I think he has a pretty good idea about the religion. 

ETA: another major difference is the value put on education. The LDS church seems to value a good education. The fundamentalist groups do not. And also, racism. I don't think a person who isn't caucasion can hold the priesthood or even really join some of the fundamentalist groups. 

[DaisyD]

Also, since they banned polygamy, the LDS church is extremely against it. I know, I know most people who convert to fundamental LDS are LDS to begin with, but the Mormons I've known are adamantly opposed to polygamy. More so than people of other Christian denominations I know.

[NerdyHil]

Okay, here's what I know: since the majority of the polygamous groups split off from the mainstream LDS church in the 1890's large chunks of what most people see as "mormon culture" has deviated. The big thing that's weird to me (I was raised a 6th generation mormon in the jello belt) is the fact that so many polygamy groups don't follow the Word of Wisdom thing. I've seen some that drink coffee or alcohol.

36 minutes ago, mstee said:

My understanding is that the fundamental difference is polygamy, and that there are other differences with how the Book of Mormon is interpreted. Obviously with some of the more extreme groups like the FLDS you are getting some pretty wild interpretations. The AUB might have similar take on it to the LDS. Plus I think small things/quirks (like everyone joking how Mormons love jello molds) form overtime, slowly adding subtle differences. Like comparing different cultures.  Also, I know in the LDS community going on missions is an important thing to do, mostly for young men. I don't think any of the fundamentalist groups do mission work.

On a Kody note, I think it's funny he'd say that. Assuming his friend is LDS. Kody was a member of the Mormon church till he was a young adult. So I think he has a pretty good idea about the religion. 

ETA: another major difference is the value put on education. The LDS church seems to value a good education. The fundamentalist groups do not. And also, racism. I don't think a person who isn't caucasion can hold the priesthood or even really join some of the fundamentalist groups. 

I agree with all of your points. I also think that there is less of a focus on "personal revelation" in polygamous groups than in the mainstream LDS church, especially in the FLDS. They focus so much on obedience,that independent thought is seen as so negative. I've also seen that some groups do the "law of consecration" thing where all goods and money for all members are lumped together and doled out according to need. I think that's another way to control members used by the FLDS. In so many of these groups, it seems like the men in charge are in that role for life. In the mainstream LDS church, most of those on a local level are a rotating position. It is also really weird when I see fringe polygamous groups using things produced by the mainstream church, like hymnbooks, pictures, ect.   

[mstee]

@NerdyHil I've always wondered if the fundamentalist groups followed the Word of Wisdom. I've never heard anyone specify. You'd think with all the rules that they have that they tack that on just because. 

[NerdyHil]

12 minutes ago, daisyd681 said:

Also, since they banned polygamy, the LDS church is extremely against it. I know, I know most people who convert to fundamental LDS are LDS to begin with, but the Mormons I've known are adamantly opposed to polygamy. More so than people of other Christian denominations I know.

But here's the weird thing about that is that the mainstream LDS church also teaches that if you make it to the highest level of heaven, you will have to live polygamy. I know so many women that have really struggled with that concept, including my mom. 

@mstee the LDS church really didn't push the word of wisdom until early 20th century, I think. Even now, most of what is seen as doctrinal is more cultural than codified. When I was growing up, caffeinated soda was still kind of looked down on. I've seen some mormons justifying green tea is okay if you drink it for health reasons, not because it's tasty. So, the culture of each splinter group could be unique. 

[LMDinHarlem]

 @NerdyHil I'm a former Utahn, but was never Mormon - however I have always wondered - if a woman cannot make it on her own to the highest level of heaven (my understanding is that a woman must be "called" by her husband, and can only get that call if she has had children) then who would be there for the men to marry? Can the men in the Celestial Kingdom call anybody they like? Perhaps some cute gals from the ward whose husbands just weren't righteous enough to make it all the way to Celestial?

[theinvisiblegirl]

12 minutes ago, NerdyHil said:

But here's the weird thing about that is that the mainstream LDS church also teaches that if you make it to the highest level of heaven, you will have to live polygamy. I know so many women that have really struggled with that concept, including my mom. 

<snip>

What?! That's a thing? An actual thing they teach people?

How do you ban/denounce polygamy in the Earthly form but then say, "Hang on, everyone. Once you're gone, it's an entirely different matter! You've got to live polygamously in the afterlife if you make it all the way to the top." That seems to make no sense, and I can definitely understand women struggling with that concept.

[NerdyHil]

@theinvisiblegirl That is totally a thing. l was taught about polygamy in terms of LDS history for the bulk of my life. A lot of it was taught in terms obedience to what god tells you to do. It's also super common here in the jello belt to have a polygamous ancestor. Mine did time for polygamy. This is why these groups aren't prosecuted how they should be in Utah, because there is still this kind of acceptance and almost pity for those who are polygamous.

Side note: this is my polygamous ancestor. This is from my mother's blog. If someone says something mean to her I will cut you, fair warning.  http://lesliesfamily.blogspot.com/2013/02/alexander-nephi-stephens.html

[CTRLZero]

9 minutes ago, NerdyHil said:

this is my polygamous ancestor.

Thank you for sharing a slice of your family's history.  I love these historical insights, and one of my favorite areas to study is the settling of the Snake River area.  The blog is well done.  Compliments to your mother.

[NerdyHil]

21 minutes ago, CTRLZero said:

Thank you for sharing a slice of your family's history.  I love these historical insights, and one of my favorite areas to study is the settling of the Snake River area.  The blog is well done.  Compliments to your mother.

I will pass that along! If you would like more info message me. My family has been in S. Idaho for generations. My parents live on land that was homesteaded by my great-great-grandparents. It's been parceled out among children, and they're surrounded my aunts and uncles. My grandfather lives next to the house he was born in. I was taken aback to see anyone who even knows about the history of this area. To me it's just "what grandpa did", but family history and history in general is a big deal in our family.

 

[NerdyHil]

6 hours ago, LMDinHarlem said:

 @NerdyHil I'm a former Utahn, but was never Mormon - however I have always wondered - if a woman cannot make it on her own to the highest level of heaven (my understanding is that a woman must be "called" by her husband, and can only get that call if she has had children) then who would be there for the men to marry? Can the men in the Celestial Kingdom call anybody they like? Perhaps some cute gals from the ward whose husbands just weren't righteous enough to make it all the way to Celestial?

So, here's the break-down: if you're a single lady who dies without a husband, but are good enough to go to super awesome mega heaven of the Celestial Kingdom then you will be "sealed" to faithful man who may already have a wife(or two). Men can be sealed to more than one woman while they're still alive, but women can't. So, if a couple gets divorced and the woman leaves the LDS church or the woman dies, the man can get sealed again with no big hub-bub. Or if they are both still active they have to get the sealing dissolved if one of them wants to get married in the temple again. That's what happened when my husband and I got married. His ex, who had already remarried had to write a letter and we had to wait for approval. 

[Imagine20]

@NerdyHil that was a great blog.  I enjoyed reading it. 

[theinvisiblegirl]

Very interesting, @NerdyHil! I don't know very much about Mormonism - I was raised Catholic, and my extent of knowledge about Mormons is the musical The Book of Mormon, so I pretty much know nothing - but I'm very surprised to see that polygamy in some aspect is still taught, even if it is in the after life. Is this a less talked about teaching, something the public isn't really aware about but members are?

Also, because the Browns and other fundie Mormons practice in the physical world, do they think they're more holier than the LDS Mormons who will practice polygamy only in the afterlife? Are there two separate polygamist Mormon afterlives - one for LDS and one for fundies?

[LMDinHarlem]

Thanks for the info @NerdyHil and thank you for sharing the blog! I think our sisters here on the subthread might enjoy http://www.yearofpolygamy.com/ I admit I haven't listened to all 100 podcasts, but have loved this deep dive into the subject - the host is not at all snarky, she's on a very honest and thoughtful mission (pun intended) to explore historical and contemporary Mormon - esque polygamy. 

Also @theinvisiblegirl I'm pretty sure there are not separate afterlives for LDS and fundies - the fundies just think they're the only ones who can get to the highest level.

[DaisyD]

As to the first question, it seems that many of the offshoot groups believe that the LDS church went off the rails with the banning of polygamy, so yes, they think they are holier. As to the second, I have no idea.

[withaj]

On May 16, 2016 at 1:56 PM, theinvisiblegirl said:

This got me thinking. What exactly is the difference between regular LDS Mormons and the fundamentalists? Do they simply believe in the same things, but the fundamentalists practice "the principle"?

I realize the various fundamentalist groups believe in slightly different ways of doing things - I just read about the Kingston clan, and they preach a very different version of the Book of Mormon. But are there big differences between the basic beliefs, or are they pretty much similar?

There have already been some good responses here, but I figured I’d jump in, too.

Honestly, the answer to your first question will depend on whether you ask an LDS or fundamentalist Mormon. In short, the obvious distinction is the practice of polygamy, but there are a number of other doctrinal differences between the LDS church and various fundamentalist groups. (I'll get to these later.)

LDS Mormons believe that theirs remains the sole legitimate Mormon church as founded by Joseph Smith in the 1820s. The original Mormon church did promote the practice of plural marriage, though it was never actually practiced by a majority of members. Throughout the latter part of the 19th century, it became the primary obstacle to Utah statehood. Utah had applied to become a state several times and been denied, in large part due to a series of ongoing battles with the federal government over the legality of practicing polygamy. In fact, the federal government at one point disincorporated the church and seized its assets. In 1890, the church's president, Wilford Woodruff, issued a declaration that church members should not enter into new plural marriages in contravention of federal law. The 1890 declaration was said to be a product of divine revelation, which remains the position of the LDS church today. 

However, virtually all fundamentalist Mormon groups view the 1890 declaration as an act of political expediency and a rejection of the true teachings of Joseph Smith, and see their groups as the legitimate successors to his church. (As a general rule, most of the fundamentalist groups believe that they and they only are the true Mormon church. The Apostolic United Brethren, or AUB, the group with which Kody Brown’s family is affiliated, is an exception. They believe the LDS church is legitimate but wayward.) Fundamentalist groups groups typically view the revelations made by the first three presidents/prophets of the church, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and John Taylor, as valid and divinely inspired, but reject the legitimacy of LDS revelations and teachings beginning with Wilford Woodruff's presidency.

So, yes, polygamy was the wedge issue. But Mormons of all stripes believe in continuing revelation, meaning that the fullness of God's teachings are revealed over time. Because this holds true for each of the churches/groups, there are a lot of doctrinal distinctions that have developed. For example, continuing revelation in the LDS church has led to the rejection or disavowal of three "biggies" including the practice of blood atonement, the United Order, and Adam-God doctrine. However, each of these is still present in one or more modern fundamentalist Mormon sects (Blood Atonement: FLDS, LeBarons, Kingstons. United Order: AUB, FLDS. Adam-God: AUB, probably most others). Continuing revelation in fundamentalist groups led to, for example, the doctrine of placement marriage (FLDS: the prophet receives revelation regarding who should marry. Centennial Park: women receive revelation regarding who they should marry. Kingstons: Everybody's related already and leadership uses some creepy breeding scheme to determine who should marry). The fundamentalist groups also differ on how they derive their priesthood authority, which is why there are so many in the first place. For example, Centennial Park and the Blackmore clan both broke away from the FLDS, and the Naylor group broke away from Centennial Park. Each of those splits was a result of dissent about the structure and hierarchy of the church.

I didn't mean to make this so long, but I hope this helps answer your question. Sorry you asked yet??

[DaisyD]

Thank you for that very informative explanation @withaj. That really helps clarify the differences. 

[QuiverDance]

@withaj  Great post.  It prompted me to google the Adam-God doctrine, and I am far too dumb to wrap my mind around it.  That is seriously confusing stuff. 

[theinvisiblegirl]

@withaj Thank you for the explanation! It did clear things up and really showed the differences between the two sides.

[ADoyle90815]

I've said before, but the FLDS and other polygamist sects were my gateway fundies. In a way, I wouldn't be surprised if the FLDS and some of the other extreme polygamist groups who still allow Blood Atonement are even more openly racist since the mainstream LDS church reversed its racist teachings in 1978.

[withaj]

1 hour ago, QuiverDance said:

@withaj  Great post.  It prompted me to google the Adam-God doctrine, and I am far too dumb to wrap my mind around it.  That is seriously confusing stuff. 

Thanks! Yep, Adam-God is a hard one to figure out. I thought about trying to explain it in my post, but it's close to impossible to do... the more I tried, the less I understood! It went something like this: Adam was really God, except God was really Michael, who was part of a Galactic Council of Polygamous Gods that hung out with their multiple wives in the Pre-Existence and, oh, one of those was Jesus, too, and... whoops, totally lost the plot. It gets to sound weirdly like Scientology and/or Star Wars after a while. 

 

[Blueruin]

I found that under the banner of heaven did a good job at explaining the history of polygamy in fundamentalist Mormonism. My husband is a Utahn and former Mormon I've spent a lot of time explaining to my family that he is not FLDS and furthermore there are differences. 

For the record I'm from Saskatchewan Canada, Mennonites/brennanites/ hudderites are easily understood but Mormons are still the "unknown" to most of my family. 

[Cleopatra7]

On 5/18/2016 at 2:20 PM, ADoyle90815 said:

I've said before, but the FLDS and other polygamist sects were my gateway fundies. In a way, I wouldn't be surprised if the FLDS and some of the other extreme polygamist groups who still allow Blood Atonement are even more openly racist since the mainstream LDS church reversed its racist teachings in 1978.

I believe the LeBarons practice blood atonement, which is why so many of them ended up dead. Christine Brown's mother is a LeBaron, which would explain why she is so anti-polygamy, since there's nothing happy or shiny about that group. Some of the LeBaron women are or were Mexican, because it's believed that they are the descendants of the apocryphal Lamanites (ancient Israelites who, according to the Book of Mormon, migrated to the Americas and became Native Americans) and will become "white and delightsome" by marrying white fundentalist Mormon men. The white wives were still treated better (relatively speaking) than the Mexican wives, flat out because they were white and therefore "superior."

[NerdyHil]

On 5/27/2016 at 6:27 PM, Cleopatra7 said:

I believe the LeBarons practice blood atonement, which is why so many of them ended up dead. Christine Brown's mother is a LeBaron, which would explain why she is so anti-polygamy, since there's nothing happy or shiny about that group. Some of the LeBaron women are or were Mexican, because it's believed that they are the descendants of the apocryphal Lamanites (ancient Israelites who, according to the Book of Mormon, migrated to the Americas and became Native Americans) and will become "white and delightsome" by marrying white fundentalist Mormon men. The white wives were still treated better (relatively speaking) than the Mexican wives, flat out because they were white and therefore "superior."

"His Favorite Wife" addresses this group, if you haven't read it.  The mainstream LDS church is also weird about Native Americans that there is a whole group called LDS Indian Placement that "places" Native kids in white Mormon households, especially during high school. I knew several in my small 99% Mormon school district. Unsurprisingly, awful things have happened to some kids. http://www.sltrib.com/home/3703333-155/lawsuit-accuses-mormon-church-of-failing