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DaisyD

Escaping Polygamy - Mainly Kingston Clan - Otherwise Known as "The Order"

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PennySycamore

@nelliebelle1197 and @daisyd681, thanks for the correction.  I remembered that the dad was pervy and Josh was just evil, but could not remember if Stephen was actually a polyg or not.

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EyeQueue

What the bloody fuck? It's like the basement of the Warren Jeff's compound has a trapdoor that just opened up and dumped us 10 or so levels down in depravity.

This is some truly disturbing shit. :(

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DaisyD

I think that was the most shocking thing for me about this group. They are even MORE fucked up than Jeffs' worshippers somehow. 

Edited by daisyd681

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Imagine20

I've always been interested in the Kingstons. They physically look "off," (especially the men) and I think that's what drew me in. I knew there was incest, but I just never knew the sickening extent of the abuse.  I don't understand how humans can be so depraved. 

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withaj
5 hours ago, Imagine20 said:

I've always been interested in the Kingstons. They physically look "off," (especially the men) and I think that's what drew me in. I knew there was incest, but I just never knew the sickening extent of the abuse.  I don't understand how humans can be so depraved. 

Reading about Roch Thériault brought a whole new dimension to my understanding of depravity, so for me, the Kingstons don't quite rate on that scale. But you're right, the systematic abuse is sickening. There is something so sinister about the Kingstons, even compared to psycho Warren Jeffs and the FLDS.

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ADoyle90815
On 5/16/2016 at 11:44 PM, FundieFarmer said:

How do the numbers work when the leaders change? It seems they'd constantly be changing? And what about when a son starts his own family...does he get a new number? I know you might not be able to answer, Daisy...just my thought!

Seeing that number on the tombstone like that...horrifying. I'd want to be remembered as so much more than #22's first wife, for a blink in time until the next #22 came along with his first wife.

That reminds me of what my mom said about a burial plot she saw in SLC's oldest cemetery where some of the earliest Utah settlers are buried. Back when the mainstream LDS church practiced polygamy, someone was buried with a stone taking up the grave with all of his church callings on it, and surrounding his graves were his wives, who only had their first names identifying them on tiny headstones. I guess now, I'd say the number thing is worse, since at least those polygamist wives had their names to identify them.

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dianapavelovna
On 5/16/2016 at 7:06 PM, daisyd681 said:

Along the lines of strange practices is the "Law of Satisfaction" in which righteous men are given a number. The leader is Brother #1, his right hand man is Brother #2, and so on. Brother #8's first wife will be 81. Her first male child will be 811, her first female child will be 812. Male children get odd numbers, females get even. Brother #8's second wife will be 82, and her children will be 821, 822,... These numbers follow them to the grave.tumblr_nhiqtkkbeK1s6lktro3_1280.jpg

This woman was the first wife of Brother #22.

Other than being totally dehumanizing, it shows the organization capabilities of these people. I don't know about you all, but I prefer my psycho cult leaders as nonsensical ramblers. This kind of psychopathic analytical thinking is scarier.

Okay, in the first Principle link in the OP (the one about the children dying because they didn't have carseats), the author points out that Carri Bjorkman (one of Tom Green's wives) donated the very particular sum of $81 and speculates that it's a numbered men reference. It has to be, right? Can someone with more brainpower than I make any sense of it?

I'm fascinated by this group but it's so overwhelming to try to keep up with who's who (even more so than other polygamist groups IMO).

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DaisyD

I do believe that was the speculation for such an odd sum. I don't know if her husband is Brother #81 or if she's the first wife of Brother #8. They do seem to mention the numbers in odd ways. One obituary mentioned that a man's favorite number was 34 (or something).

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OodOnTheLoo

Do we know when they started inbreeding?  Was it when the LDS church split?  130-140 years is easily ten generations given their propensity to start the girls young.  There have got to be some upcoming issues after this long, of this close of line breeding.

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DaisyD

This group isn't that old. They started in 1941 with Elden Kingston. It's either his son or grandson running it now (I get really lost in the thistle bush).

ETA: Elden Kingston founded the cult. His brother John Ortell Kingston took over. JO's son Paul is now in charge.

Edited by daisyd681

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withaj
6 hours ago, OodOnTheLoo said:

Do we know when they started inbreeding?  Was it when the LDS church split?  130-140 years is easily ten generations given their propensity to start the girls young.  There have got to be some upcoming issues after this long, of this close of line breeding.

Like @daisyd681 said, the Kingston clan isn't that old. In fact, none of the modern groups are very old. Fundamentalist Mormons were pretty much one group until around the 1940s/50s (this is an oversimplification, but a good rule of thumb).

Edited by withaj

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QuiverDance

So were these the inspiration for the "Greens" on Big Love?

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samurai_sarah
11 minutes ago, QuiverDance said:

So were these the inspiration for the "Greens" on Big Love?

If memory doesn't deceive me, the "Greens" were inspired by the LeBaron family, or namely Ervil LeBaron's group. The Kingstons inspired the casino plot-line, since they entered that trade. And again, IIRC, they also inspired the genetic-engineering plot-line that involved Nicki and her first husband, plus her mother.

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QuiverDance

Yes!  Thank you for jogging my memory.  I'd read about these families back then and forgot about the LeBarons.  So freaking sick.  

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theinvisiblegirl

All this talk of how the writers of Big Love did so much research into real things makes me want to rewatch the show, or at least read more in-depthly (not a real word but it makes sense so I'm going for it) on the connections and inspirations.

@OodOnTheLoo, from the little I read in the links in the first post, they're already having the problems that come along with inbreeding. Blindness is the one I recall best, but I'm sure there are other cases with other problems if you read the blogs.

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dianapavelovna
2 hours ago, theinvisiblegirl said:

@OodOnTheLoo, from the little I read in the links in the first post, they're already having the problems that come along with inbreeding. Blindness is the one I recall best, but I'm sure there are other cases with other problems if you read the blogs.

I am deepdeepdeep in this lil rabbit hole tonight, and one article I read talked about birth defects and other medical problems that have appeared, likely as a result of consistent inbreeding. Some choice bits:

Quote

Among the polygamous Kingstons, a number of children have been born with birth defects, among them one born with two vaginas and two uteruses but no vaginal or bowel opening. Outwardly, she appeared to have no sex organs. The girl, born to John Ortell and Isabell Johnson, was not the product of an incestuous marriage. Family members attribute the defects to the advanced ages of the mother and father -- he was 64, she was 45.

Quote

Several Kingston offspring of incestuous couplings also have been born without fingernails, a disease that could be linked to a number of genetically caused abnormalities, although an exact diagnosis is impossible without closer study of medical records. Since most Kingston children are born in homes under the scrutiny of trusted and secretive family midwives or clan leaders, documentation of medical abnormalities is rare, but not unprecedented.

In 1996, the now 31-year-old Kingston mother of two slow-growing children sought explanations at Primary Children's Medical Center. Initially, she tried to conceal her marital relationship.

"I didn't dare talk about it," she says. Eventually, she admitted she had married her half-brother and given birth to three children.

Two years later, a pair of geneticists from the National Institutes of Health (NIH) in Bethesda, Md., flew to Utah where they hoped to stage a seminar for Kingston family members about the dangers of incest and birth defects, and, presumably, gain permission to study the clan.

Two minor members of the clan attended the NIH seminar, conducted in a Woods Cross hotel room -- not far from the Kingston dairy. Disappointed more family members did not attend, the scientists left.

"I tried to get people to come, but nobody would listen," says the mother, who left the group and her marriage after her sons were diagnosed with dwarfism. She says her parents, Merlin Barnum Kingston (John Ortell's brother) and Joyce Fransden, were uncle and niece. And her ex-husband's parents, Merlin and Carolyn Kingston, were uncle and niece.

 

Quote

Other possible genetic traits include: microcephaly, a malformation of the skull in which the infant has a small head (ex-members say two children with microcephaly have died and eight others are institutionalized); blindness; spina bifida; Down syndrome; kidney disease and abnormal leg and arm joints.

from this article

Edited by dianapavelovna
to add the source link, duhhh

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withaj

@dianapavelovna thanks for posting that article. I'll admit that the Kingstons are the group about which I'm least well-versed. Beyond the business empire and inbreeding practices, I haven't read much. 

I'd imagine they're within a generation or so of reaching a critical point, genetically speaking. 

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Chicken bones

I stumbled on that culteducation.com website last night in search of kingston stuff. And wow, fell down waaaay too many rabbit holes...

Edited by Chicken bones

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JermajestyDuggar

I watched escaping polygamy and they never got into how extremely incestuaous the kingstons were. I remember watching an episode thinking that they had mislabeled two of the girls as cousins because they looked just alike. I assumed they had to be sisters, not cousins. But now I realized that there's so much incest that they all look alike since they are related in many different ways. 

 

Also so these types of groups always start out the same. Incest is ok in the first generation with no birth defects. And in the second generation there may only be a few. But by the third generation there's always so many more birth defects and it only gets worse. They breed like rabbits so they can go on for awhile like this because even if half their babies die, they will still have 7 more live children to keep breeding. But eventually it will have to come to an end. But that will probably be because of money and legal troubles. 

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Wizard of Quivers
19 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

 Incest is ok in the first generation with no birth defects. And in the second generation there may only be a few. But by the third generation there's always so many more birth defects and it only gets worse. 

Precisely. When I hear about this particular level of incest it always reminds me of Charles the II and Spanish Hapsburg dynasty. Preserving the "Royal" bloodline might not show any ill effects, but eventually it all comes crashing down, usually in severe mental defects and the dreaded infertility. 

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withaj
6 hours ago, Wizard of Quivers said:

Precisely. When I hear about this particular level of incest it always reminds me of Charles the II and Spanish Hapsburg dynasty. Preserving the "Royal" bloodline might not show any ill effects, but eventually it all comes crashing down, usually in severe mental defects and the dreaded infertility. 

The dreaded Habsburg jaw... Wasn't it so bad in Charles that he couldn't even chew properly?

Edited by withaj

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acireta

Thanks to this thread, I have spent four days reading all kinds of sites and info about this group. My mind is blown.

Now my coworkers are even starting to read about them because it's been a constant topic of conversation at work! The phrase double cousins is now an inside joke around here :my_biggrin:

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Wizard of Quivers

@withaj Yes, I've read that as well, he also apparently had a grossly enlarged tongue that wouldn't fit entirely in his mouth which gave him a speech impediment and probably contributed to his difficulty in eating. I definitely wouldn't want to be at that dinner table!

Edited by Wizard of Quivers

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Cleopatra7
On 5/20/2016 at 9:00 AM, JermajestyDuggar said:

I watched escaping polygamy and they never got into how extremely incestuaous the kingstons were. I remember watching an episode thinking that they had mislabeled two of the girls as cousins because they looked just alike. I assumed they had to be sisters, not cousins. But now I realized that there's so much incest that they all look alike since they are related in many different ways. 

 

Also so these types of groups always start out the same. Incest is ok in the first generation with no birth defects. And in the second generation there may only be a few. But by the third generation there's always so many more birth defects and it only gets worse. They breed like rabbits so they can go on for awhile like this because even if half their babies die, they will still have 7 more live children to keep breeding. But eventually it will have to come to an end. But that will probably be because of money and legal troubles. 

Given that the Kingstons practice full and half sibling marriage, I would think that genetic abnormalities would start showing up quite soon. Aside from breaking the incest taboo, I just don't see how the Kingstons can look at all these horribly disabled children and conclude that their "seed" is super special and holy. It boggles the mind.

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