Rocco and bone cancer

[PennySycamore]

@Gossamer1,  Rocco and Sophie are gorgeous lying there together and look perfectly at peace!

[CrazyCatLady]

This brings tears to my eyes! So happy for you all!

[genever]

I'm so pleased everything is going so well!

[Gossamer1]

I just had my first experience with phantom limb pain. 

Holy fuck! I never want to hear a sound like that ever again. I've heard dogs yelp, whine, cry, and bark wih distress. This was shreiking like I've never heard before.  The whole thing lasted less than 30 seconds but it was terrifying. After it was over he stood up and wagged his tail.

So much for me going to sleep...

[MarblesMom]

Oh, no!  Wishing for a good night's sleep for all involved.

 

[ALM7]

4 hours ago, Gossamer1 said:

He is doing well today. He fell a couple of times when we were outside for potty breaks today but is getting around great in the house, even on the tile in the kitchen.

Sophie has been mostly ignoring him. She came to check on him when he cried earlier today (just before medication time.) The pictures are from the first time she wanted to hang out near him since he came home.

To my bolded above:

Just a thought... Maybe Sophie senses something has changed with Rocco, perhaps she was so concerned, she dealt with the feelings she experienced from a distance?  It never ceases to amaze me how in-tune our precious ones are with each other.  

@Gossamer1, I just found this thread, sorry I'm late sending thoughts your way. I'm so grateful Rocco and his family are doing well. Take care, and I wish Rocco a restful recovery!

[Palimpsest]

8 hours ago, Gossamer1 said:

This was shreiking like I've never heard before.  The whole thing lasted less than 30 seconds but it was terrifying. After it was over he stood up and wagged his tail.

To the bolded - amazing!  What a dog.  They are adorable lying there together too. 

I'm so sorry about the pain.  Poor Rocco and poor you.  I really hope that doesn't happen again.

I'm sure Sophie knows that something has changed but she probably knew he was in pain before the op. too.  Dogs are very sensitive to say nothing of - Rocco must smell like hospitals right now to Sophie. 

 

[Gossamer1]

It's happened a few more times since last night but each instance was shorter than the first. His bandage change is on Thursday and I will definitely ask how long to expect the phantom pain. The Fentanyl patch comes off tomorrow. I wonder if the patch has an impact, it made him so anxious last time. 

[GreyhoundFan]

@Gossamer1 I'm sorry to read of the phantom limb pain. It must have been so scary. Hopefully the move away from Fentanyl will help.

[Curious]

I'm super late to this thread, but wanted to add a couple things.

First, I'm so sorry you had to go through this with Rocco.  I have a soft spot for Saints.  One of the best dogs I ever owned was a Saint mix (mom was saint, dad was a lab/setter mix).  She looked more like a newfy than a Saint since she was all black like dad.

Both of your guys are gorgeous and they make me want another Saint!   I think my 5-12lb dogs might have other ideas about that, though

As you have already discovered, dogs recover from amputation quickly and hardly miss a beat.  Dogs are so much more resilient than people.

I haven't seen if you have decided on chemo yet, but I wanted to give you our story for consideration.

Our first Papillon had a mast cell tumor, which we had removed once without biopsy because the vet we were using at that time didn't feel like it was cancer so no need.  Almost a year to the day of that surgery, the bump returned in the exact same spot (we could see the scar across it so knew it was the exact place).

I had switched vets by then, so a biopsy was suggested before proceeding.  Of course, it came back as a mast cell tumor level 4 (naturally the worst one).  We scheduled the surgery and they took very wide margins to make sure to get the whole tumor.  His incision  literally went from his spine, all the way down his side.   It was AWFUL to look at since half his body was shaved and he had that huge incision.   I wish we'd been warned about that.

Anyway, as a precaution after discussion with a cancer specialist we decided to do chemo.  Our guy was 8 years at the time and Paps can go 18 years so he was still pretty young, relatively speaking.  It cost around $5,000 (and is based on weight!), but he was definitely worth it to us.  They gave us the usual 18 months-3 years after chemo speech and we were still willing to do it.

Chemo was REALLY hard on him (and us).  The first dose likely would have killed him if I wasn't such a paranoid puppy mama and didn't know my dog as well as I did.  Hours before he actually went septic, I knew something was wrong, despite his tests all being fine.  I forced them to keep him at the ICU overnight (in case things went (further) south) and we picked him up and took him to the cancer vet the next morning.  They agreed to keep him even though they were not showing any lab results that concerned them.  Several hours later, they called to inform me that he was septic and if he hadn't been there probably wouldn't have made it.

They adjusted his dose after that and we had no further scary incidents, but the chemo made him obviously feel horrible.  The first couple days after a treatment he was absolutely miserable.  He would finally start feeling better and it was time for another treatment.  It was agonizing to watch

We did have amazing luck, however.  He was declared cancer free after 3 years and we had him for another 8 years total.   However, he was never quite the same dog as he was before the chemo.  I think in his case, part of that was developing scar tissue around his ginormous incision that somewhat restricted his normal movement, but that wasn't the only change.  He just wasn't the same dog...emotionally?  mentally?    I'm not sure how to even explain it but you know how your dog acts by the time they are 8 and you can tell a difference when they are no longer acting that way.

Even since then, I've said I'm not sure I would do chemo again.  On a young dog with a long life expectancy (say under about 5), I'd probably chance it again, but on a senior dog...I just don't know.

We loved every extra minute we had with him, of course, but sometimes I still wonder if we did the right thing for HIM.

 

[Gossamer1]

I will be doing chemo but not radiation with Rocco. 

[GreyhoundFan]

@Gossamer1 When Rocco starts chemo, he may have weird food issues. I know that many of them stop being able to eat from stainless steel dishes. If that's what you use, you may consider a ceramic food bowl, at least for the duration of chemo.

[Gossamer1]

2 minutes ago, GreyhoundFan said:

 I know that many of them stop being able to eat from stainless steel dishes. 

That's interesting,  I was unaware that might happen. I'll get another bucket / bowl combo for him. Their current setup is below. 

Yes, that is a cone of shame around the food bowl. It's so much neater on the floor now.

[GreyhoundFan]

@Gossamer1 I love the inventive use of the cone of shame! I've heard about the stainless steel thing from multiple people. I know that chemo really messes with everything, so I can believe it.

[Gossamer1]

The cone became necessary, they are both messy eaters and there was kibble absolutely everywhere.  There are woods and water behind my house so I am fighting a never ending battle with the local rodent population that would very much like to move into my house. Kibble under the fridge and freezer puts me at a distinct disadvantage.

By the way, Saint Bernards are TERRIBLE mousers.

[Gossamer1]

12 hours ago, Curious said:

Chemo was REALLY hard on him (and us).  The first dose likely would have killed him if I wasn't such a paranoid puppy mama and didn't know my dog as well as I did.  Hours before he actually went septic, I knew something was wrong, despite his tests all being fine.  I forced them to keep him at the ICU overnight (in case things went (further) south) and we picked him up and took him to the cancer vet the next morning.  They agreed to keep him even though they were not showing any lab results that concerned them.  Several hours later, they called to inform me that he was septic and if he hadn't been there probably wouldn't have made it.

What kind of symptoms did he did display? Rocco did so well the first day and a half he was home and then he had the phantom pain incident(s).  Now I'm questioning my decisions for treatment again. 

[Curious]

7 hours ago, Gossamer1 said:

What kind of symptoms did he did display? Rocco did so well the first day and a half he was home and then he had the phantom pain incident(s).  Now I'm questioning my decisions for treatment again. 

I'm not sure how well I can explain this because people that knew him (our vet for example) thought I was CRAZY when I told them something was wrong with him.  I KNOW my dogs though and I could tell something wasn't right even before he became symptomatic.

He'd been home 2 weeks maybe from the surgery before the chemo started.  He was a bit ouchie after the surgery, of course, but he basically acted like his normal self after a couple days.  He was happy, tail wagging, responsive when we interacted with him, etc.   A few hours after the first chemo treatment he just seemed like he didn't feel overly well.   I figured that was pretty normal because chemo makes humans feel pretty shitty, but it kept getting worse.   He wasn't wagging his tail when we talked to him, he wasn't interested in food (which I figured might be nausea so wasn't *that* concerned about), he wasn't drinking anything, which is always a bad sign.  Eventually, he just was laying in his crate and I could tell something was not right at all, so we called and then took him to  our ER vet.  They did bloodwork on him and nothing showed up, but I was absolutely sure something was wrong, so I forced them to keep him overnight until we could call the cancer vet.   In the morning, they said to bring him in so we picked him up and went straight there.  He still wasn't showing anything on bloodwork at that point, but they agreed to keep him.  A few hours later he crashed due to the sepsis.

After he was done with chemo for a while and his incision was all healed, he just never was quite the same.   For him, I think some of it was due to the incision
I'm going to spoiler a pic of it so you can get an idea.  It's not terribly gross, it's just an incision (no blood or anything).  This pic is about 13 days after surgery, so it looks pretty good by now.

Spoiler

 

This one shows the incision in relation to his whole body.  He's a bit of a mess in this photo, but no baths were allowed, of course.

 

Spoiler

 

 

When the incision healed it seemed like it really tightened up because his movement was different.  He could not jump up on things anymore (we had steps so not a huge deal, but he even had trouble with the steps sometimes).  

Papillons generally stay fairly active/puppyish until they are quite senior, but he lost what little of that attitude he still had (he was an "old soul' kind of dog and didn't play with toys or anything like that even as a puppy).   He was still somewhat responsive to things he REALLY enjoyed, like going for a car ride, but he almost seemed depressed, for lack of a better description.

one thing I also forgot to mention is that chemo effects fur just like it does human hair.   His fur had just started growing back in when we started the chemo. It completely stopped growing during the chemo and then when ti grew back in, it was a completely different quality.   So he basically had 2 different coats from that point on.   That fur was also much greasier than his original coat

One oddity, he never had fleas again.  We had a horrible flea problem for several years (they were horrible everywhere in our town) and he never had a flea on him, when I was picking them off the other dogs constantly.  Apparently the chemo changes the blood chemistry somehow that makes it unattractive to fleas.

 

 

[Curious]

@Gossamer1  I forgot to mention I love your feeding station.  What a great way to keep food from spreading all over.   Our dogs are fed raw/homecooked (except when my guy was going through chemo, I had to agree to stop feeding raw, which annoyed me because there is no evidence that raw feeding is dangerous during chemo, but many vets still consider it a horrible practice, so I have to fight about it every time I go to a new vet.   My previous vet was totally on board with it, but she left the practice when she had a baby a couple years ago.  Our current vet isn't thrilled that we feed raw, but she says she can't argue with their condition, so we just agree to disagree and don't discuss diet unless it's germane to the reason we are there).

My cats, however, refuse to get off kibble and they spread it everywhere!   I put their feeder on a cookie sheet which keeps is slightly more contained that it was before.  The cone is a great idea.

I also love that you have your food/water elevated!  Most people don't realize that dishes, especially for large dogs, should be elevated!

[Gossamer1]

26 minutes ago, Curious said:

I also love that you have your food/water elevated!  Most people don't realize that dishes, especially for large dogs, should be elevated!

Saints are prone to bloat so a raised bowl is necessary for them. I checked out raised feeding stations but they were very expensive and not really large enough to accomodate two giant dogs. 

My bucket system also has the benefit of being very portable as the buckets and bowls nest and take up less room in my trunk if I take them any place long enough to need to bring more than a water bowl.

[PennySycamore]

@Curious,  my Maine Coon Cat lost a lot of hair when he was undergoing chemo.  When he died, he was bald and the rest of his coat was thinning except for his magnificent tail.  I would play Herb Alpert's recording of "Puttin' on the Ritz" when I drove him to and from his oncology appointments as he was so fabulous.  When he developed a Mohawk, I added The Ramones into the mix as he was a fabulous Punk!  @Gossamer1,  I hope that Rocco doesn't lose any hair if he has chemo or have any other bad side effects. Hair will grow back though.

[Palimpsest]

OMG.  @Curious The elevated feeder is one of those "dreaded topics of doom" for big dog owners!

 Raised feeders *may* cause - not prevent - bloat!  Per some study or other.  Big drama in the big dog world.  Fur flies!

Eh, my big dogs eat from raised feeders because they look so much more comfy.  After I read that study I did split the difference.  They now eat from lower raised feeders than before.  So sue me - I could not figure it all out so I compromised.   Little Guy likes to eat lying down - he empties his raised feeder onto the floor.  Go figure!

My pups also get 3 smaller meals a day, and don't get to run (big exercise) before or immediately after meals.

Bloat = GDV.  I think it is probably more genetic and age related than anything else.  I also know that I never want to experience it with one of my pups.  A real nightmare.

I have seen it with a Great Dane (belonging to a friend) who ate from a raised bowl and whose owner did all the right stuff - but she still bloated.  We rushed her to the E-vet but she did not survive.  So very sad.

 

[Gossamer1]

9 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

OMG.  @Curious The elevated feeder is one of those "dreaded topics of doom" for big dog owners!

 Raised feeders *may* cause - not prevent - bloat!  Per some study or other.  Big drama in the big dog world.  Fur flies!

Eh, my big dogs eat from raised feeders because they look so much more comfy.  After I read that study I did split the difference.  They now eat from lower raised feeders than before.  So sue me - I could not figure it all out so I compromised.   Little Guy likes to eat lying down - he empties his raised feeder onto the floor.  Go figure!

My pups also get 3 smaller meals a day, and don't get to run (big exercise) before or immediately after meals.

Bloat = GDV.  I think it is probably more genetic and age related than anything else.  I also know that I never want to experience it with one of my pups.  A real nightmare.

I have seen it with a Great Dane (belonging to a friend) who ate from a raised bowl and whose owner did all the right stuff - but she still bloated.  We rushed her to the E-vet but she did not survive.  So very sad.

 

I was unaware there was any contention on the raised bowl idea. Now I'm extra paranoid! 

I work with numbers all day. Given enough time I can make them tell you whatever I want. Statistics can be a very useful guide when making decisions but Ive learned to take them with a grain of salt.

[Palimpsest]

4 hours ago, Gossamer1 said:

I was unaware there was any contention on the raised bowl idea. Now I'm extra paranoid! 

I work with numbers all day. Given enough time I can make them tell you whatever I want. Statistics can be a very useful guide when making decisions but Ive learned to take them with a grain of salt.

Sorry!

It is complicated and you can find heated arguments on both sides, of course.

Here's an old article:  http://www.petmd.com/blogs/fullyvetted/2009/july/raised-bowls-and-bloat-ratcheting-controversy-risk-gdv-dogs-6861#

The study was done at Purdue and this is a follow-up.  Clear as mud.

http://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/bloat-purdue-study.html

Nutrient Intake and Bloat  Malathi Raghavan, DVM, MS; Lawrence T. Glickman, VMD, DrPH; Nita W. Glickman, MS, MPH; Diana B. Schellenberg*, MS.

[Gossamer1]

Rocco had his first follow up appt today. He got into my little Civic like a rock star,  actually he was more graceful with three legs than he was with four! He was a little hesitant getting out but did just fine.

No more bandages! That is a good thing because keeping them in place was really challenging. He is now off the Fentanyl patch and the sedative.  She upped his Gabapentin to help with the phantom pain. His second follow up with the surgeon and first appt with the Oncologist is next Friday.

Here he is sans bandages. 

[MarblesMom]

He is so handsome!!  I am *so happy* he is on the mend and able to get in and out of the car.... he doesn't look like a dog one could easily lift by themselves....  He looks good!  Wound looks great!